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MOKI RADIAL Care and Maintenence

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Old 06-15-2012, 08:12 AM
  #2026
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Default RE: MOKI RADIAL Care and Maintenence

That's why I use oil in my front housings, grease is not the best lubricant for a gearbox!

m
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Old 06-15-2012, 08:40 AM
  #2027
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Default RE: MOKI RADIAL Care and Maintenence

Just wondering, is the front housing seald enough to prevent the oil from leaking out and if so then, what type of oil would one use. Forther more , would you have to clean the grease out prior to putting the oil in or can you just add the oil and allow it to mix with the exsisting factory greass????
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Old 06-15-2012, 09:12 AM
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Default RE: MOKI RADIAL Care and Maintenence

Mick, I agree with you, grease should never be used in a gearbox unless you want to replace the gearbox in a few years.
Once the gears push the grease to one side that is where the grease will stay,it will not flow back onto the gears.
Mick would a few cc's of 150 wt. gear oil in with the grease cause the grease to liquify enough to flow.......Ron
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Old 06-15-2012, 11:49 AM
  #2029
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Default RE: MOKI RADIAL Care and Maintenence

Yes I wrote about this subject somewhere earlier in this thread. During the operation of my first M215 I noticed an abnormal amount of gear backlash at the propeller tip, it was nearly an inch and a half on a thirty-four inch propeller. I elected not to fly the model on that day instead removed the front housing to find the planet gears were worn to the point where the gear teeth were so worn they were sharp, also the cam followers had ball bearing ends and had worn grooves in the cam ring. There was little or no lubricant on the rubbing parts as the grease was all around the inside of the housing.
I spoke with Stewart Mackay the UK distributor at the time and he told me the gears had been replaced with steel components, the originals were brass. So I replaced the planet gears, the cam ring and all the followers, at this time I cleaned out all the useless grease and substituted it with 80 grade gear oil thinking you would not find these components running in grease in a car engine!
Oil is pumped into the housing with a syringe through the hole where the Hall sensor pickup is I maintain a level I consider sensible by removing the #4 inlet valve cam follower and filling until oil runs from the follower hole.

My 215 and two 250s all run in this manor They do suffer a very small amount of leakage, but I really do mean small, the main crankshaft bearing is double rubber shielded as is the front bearing although not oil seals in the true sense of the word hardly any oil passes through. As I have always used a fuel pump I remove the piston and rod from the pulse generator and use the 3mm pipe as a breather. Bear in mind that any oil that escapes through the rear bearing will finish up in the main crankcase anyway.

I cannot think of a reason why oil can’t be added to the grease in the front housing but it is not a practice I would adopt.

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Old 06-15-2012, 03:30 PM
  #2030
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Default RE: MOKI RADIAL Care and Maintenence

Brass or metal gears, it doesn't matter when they are not lubricated. I figured the lifters would be the first to go as they get no lube at all, the gear oil would take care of all that. I remember that post about the gear oil and someone jumped in to say that it was not recomended.
Thanks Mick, I may dismantle my 215 and use gear oil.
I have been wanting to remove that carb pump anyway.

What happens when you fly inverted? do you get a lot of oil coming out of where the pulse generator was.
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Old 06-17-2012, 08:43 AM
  #2031
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Default RE: MOKI RADIAL Care and Maintenence

In case anyone is interested I have my Moki 250 for sale in the RCU gas engine for sale forum.
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Old 06-18-2012, 06:45 AM
  #2032
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Default RE: MOKI RADIAL Care and Maintenence

Mick15, you stated that you cannot think of a reason not to add oil to the front housing, but it is not a practise you would condone...

Do you mean you would clean out all the grease first? I would think the the grease would liquify somewhat and would get slung around inside the housing. Grease is not the ideal lubricant for gearboxes....after a while there is no lubrication, it just sits on the sides and bottom of the case.

I have a vested interest in preserving my 400, and using gear oil in the front housing sounds like a great idea, using #4 intake lifter as a level indicator. I am using an electric pump, so am not concerned with the pulse tube plugging up with grease.

Has anyone else added oil to the gear case? Any issues?

Cheers,
Dave.
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Old 06-18-2012, 08:04 AM
  #2033
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Default RE: MOKI RADIAL Care and Maintenence

I am using a very thick oil, something between grease and oil, in my radials, from the time on when I first disassembled one. All the original grease was exactly where some mechanic had put it, it never came to melting or greasing parts. Guess how the engine looked inside..dry.
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Old 06-18-2012, 08:13 AM
  #2034
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Default RE: MOKI RADIAL Care and Maintenence


Quote:
ORIGINAL: Detlef Kunkel

I am using a very thick oil, something between grease and oil, in my radials, from the time on when I first disassembled one. All the original grease was exactly where some mechanic had put it, it never came to melting or greasing parts. Guess how the engine looked inside..dry.

which oil are you using ?


~V~
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Old 06-18-2012, 08:14 AM
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Default RE: MOKI RADIAL Care and Maintenence

I have added baffles to my 400, but have not yet run it with them added. My concern is the potential for massive heat build up from the exhaust collector ring. I have moved the cowl on the Waco as far forward as I can to enlarge the air "out" area.
Has anybody had any issues with this?

Here is a carb "mod" that I use on all my Walbro carbs. I cut the head off a 6/32 socket head bolt, leaving about 3/16" stub of the shank. I file this "stub" to a "vee" shape and solder it to the head of the carb needles. Makes it a lot easier to make adjustments using long 6/32 ball driver. Makes carb adjusting with the engine running easy...using suitable plane restraints, of course.
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Old 06-19-2012, 03:17 AM
  #2036
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Default RE: MOKI RADIAL Care and Maintenence

Detlef, Do you have a problem with the oil/grease coming out of the Festo pump especialy when you fly inverted.
I also have another question, If you remove the pumps rod and piston why couldn't you just plug the hole, that section is not part of the crankcase so there shouldn't be a need for venting.....Or is there?............Obviously you will need an electric pump to feed fuel to the carb....Thank you for your time....Ron
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Old 06-19-2012, 09:34 AM
  #2037
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Default RE: MOKI RADIAL Care and Maintenence

Ron,
I fly APS-Pumps on all of my radials, its a safer (and sufficient) fuel supply in my eyes and drops one weak point of the engine.

Any gear box should be vented, because condesates and moisture cannot escape if you close it completely. Rust will follow soon.

Although I fly that extra thick flowing grease-like oil, I never saw it coming out of the venting hole more than normal. (a little grease / oil is normal after one or two hours.)
In the P-47 engine the piston and rod are removed, also in the moki 180 of the hellcat.
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Old 06-19-2012, 04:52 PM
  #2038
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Default RE: MOKI RADIAL Care and Maintenence

Detlef, Of course I knew that, I just wasn't thinking at that moment,........you know,...... it's called old age,....I am actually embarrassed for asking that question......I was a master automotive machinist for many years, it upsets me when I ask questions that I know, if I just think for a minute.

I agree, the electric pump is the way to go, and I am definitely going to remove my mechanical pump and put the heavy flowing stuff in.

I think I will also come up with a filtered vent for the gear case, I'm sure it's not needed but it will be a great conversation piece.

Now I will get to see what is inside this masterpiece.

Thank you for your expertise and time it is realy appreciated......Ron
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Old 06-19-2012, 05:46 PM
  #2039
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Default RE: MOKI RADIAL Care and Maintenence

Ron,

Pictures please, if it's convienent.

Thanks - Jaketab
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Old 06-19-2012, 05:57 PM
  #2040
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Default RE: MOKI RADIAL Care and Maintenence

You could just buy the filtered vent Don's hobbies sells for venting gas tanks. It should work perfectly, just need to make the tubing sizes match.

Whit

Quote:
ORIGINAL: wingstrut

Detlef, Of course I knew that, I just wasn't thinking at that moment,........you know,...... it's called old age,....I am actually embarrassed for asking that question......I was a master automotive machinist for many years, it upsets me when I ask questions that I know, if I just think for a minute.

I agree, the electric pump is the way to go, and I am definitely going to remove my mechanical pump and put the heavy flowing stuff in.

I think I will also come up with a filtered vent for the gear case, I'm sure it's not needed but it will be a great conversation piece.

Now I will get to see what is inside this masterpiece.

Thank you for your expertise and time it is realy appreciated......Ron
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Old 06-19-2012, 06:05 PM
  #2041
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Default RE: MOKI RADIAL Care and Maintenence

I pulled off the hall sensor on my 400 and all the cams etc. looked to have some trace of lube on them. I did, however pull #4 intake lifter and added some 80/90 gear oil to the housing untill it dribbled out of the lifter guide. It didn't take much, but I figure it should help in the "splash" lubrication of the parts. As I rotated the crank, the cams were showing signs of "wet" lube. Can't hurt, right?

Cheers,
Dave.
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Old 06-19-2012, 06:19 PM
  #2042
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Default RE: MOKI RADIAL Care and Maintenence

Photo 1: Use light pulling pressure to release the flange from the tapered bushing. The relief cut in the tapered bushing allows for a tight fit when torque is applied. The relief cut can be seen in photo 2.

Photo 2: Remove the snap ring in order to separate the nose case to access the gear box.

Photo 3: Nose case removed with pulse pump assembly attached. Be careful when you remove this case and assembly because the pump’s connecting rod is driven by one of the two planetary gears, which are sitting on guide pins affixed to the case center section as seen in photo 4. If you keep the engine face up during nose case separation it will assist in keeping the gears in their positions. There are no locking mechanisms securing the cam or planetary gears, so if you are not careful you will dump the gears on the table and lose your cam gear to crankshaft timing.

Photo 4: This photo shows the gearbox assembly.

Photo 5: this photo shows the pulse pump assembly in its drive position.

Hope this helps,
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Old 06-19-2012, 06:48 PM
  #2043
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Default RE: MOKI RADIAL Care and Maintenence

Is the front housing with the pulse pump sealed from the case with the cams inside? Just wondering if it would be beneficial to add some gear oil through the pump housing to lube the gears in the front case.
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Old 06-19-2012, 07:17 PM
  #2044
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Default RE: MOKI RADIAL Care and Maintenence

The nose case is open to the gears. The grease shown in the photo was slung into the nose case housing and away from the rotating gears during operation. It is possible this grease could drop back onto the gears once heated during operation.

If you were to remove the pump cylinder by unscrewing it from the nose case, you could replace some grease. The question would be how much would you add.

Also you would need to use an extension tube to inject it on to the center crankshaft spline. This would allow the rotating planetary gears to pick it up for better initial lubrication. See photo 4 above.
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Old 06-19-2012, 07:25 PM
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Default RE: MOKI RADIAL Care and Maintenence

In photo 4 above you can see the inner teeth of the cam gear closest to the center section housing. It is driven by the teeth on the underside of the planetary gears as shown in the attached photos.

Photo 1: Cam ring gear removed with cam lifter and lifter housing in place.

Photo 2: Cam ring gear, lifter, and pushrod assembly.

Photo 3: Crankshaft spline

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Old 06-19-2012, 09:18 PM
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Default RE: MOKI RADIAL Care and Maintenence

Thanks Steve.
My thought was to introduce some gear oil, perhaps to a level just below the crank shaft, much like the level of oil in an auto manual transmission. There would be at least some lube splashing around, not just sticking to the areas away from the gears.
As long as the breather hole in the pump pulse housing is clear, there should be no, or very minimal, internal pressure buildup.

As mentioned before by others, grease in a gearbox is not an effective way to lubricate.

Cheers,
Dave.
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Old 06-20-2012, 05:24 AM
  #2047
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Default RE: MOKI RADIAL Care and Maintenence

Steve, Thanks for the pictures and detailed instructions, that was really nice of you to take the time to do that.
All the Moki brotherhood will appreciate that one.
I am going to do some research and see what type of high pressure lubes are available that may work in our application and will post what I find shortly, maybe the grease in there right now is flowing after it gets hot and doing the job, I doubt it!!!!.............Thanks again........Ron
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Old 06-20-2012, 06:32 AM
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Default RE: MOKI RADIAL Care and Maintenence

Great pictures - sure help with understanding the mechanism.

Some questions I need to ponder. After appx. 3 gallons total run time on the 250, I have yet to see grease leaking from the breather hole pulse tube - which is cut to accomodate the fuel pump. My concern is 3. Either the breather hole is plugged or the grease, (or lack of) is not being disturbuted within the gear housing. Also concerned that the cams are not being lubricated - causing excessive wear.

If I understand the above discussion, one should be able to remove a lifter and inject grease into the gear compartment???

Can the pump housing be removed (unscrewed) to check for a blockage ???????

Thanks - Jaketab

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Old 06-20-2012, 08:52 AM
  #2049
Scott Prossen
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Default RE: MOKI RADIAL Care and Maintenence

Can somebody post some pictures of the process of adding the oil to the housing. I'm getting a few calls on this and can't do it justice over the phone. Guys are wondering what a lifter is and how it's being removed to add the oil. Also asking me where the vent hole is to check to see if they've added too much or too little oil.

If anyone can illustrate this, I'm sure it would be a big help to many of us mechanically challanged people.

Thanks for your help guys! This has been some good "NEW" info on our rather lengthy thread.

All the best,
Scott
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Old 06-20-2012, 02:22 PM
  #2050
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Default RE: MOKI RADIAL Care and Maintenence

Scott, I followed mick15's suggestion. I pulled the hall sensor which allows access to the cams, push down #4 intake rocker and pull out the push rod (easy to do) pull out #4 intake lifter, it's just a short piece of rod, I added oil (80/90 gear oil),where the sensor mounts and it dribbles out of the lifter hole, didn't take much, maybe 2 teaspoonsful. This will put the oil level well below the crankshaft.
You do not want to fill the housing full up with oil. Just like the manual trans in your car, the level is usuall just below 1/2 way.

Now that I understand that the front nose housing is open to the cam housing, I wonder if I should be adding more oil.
On my pulse pump housing there is a very small hole in the side....breather hole????

This is getting interesting. Looking forward to hearing from others who try this.[8D] I'll go and take some pictures of the lifter etc.

Cheers,
Dave.
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