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ZIROLI P-61 BLACK WIDOW BUILD

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Old 12-11-2009, 11:11 AM
  #51
samparfitt
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Default RE: ZIROLI P-61 BLACK WIDOW BUILD

Center fuse (cont)

center hatch ready for sheeting:
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Old 12-11-2009, 11:48 AM
  #52
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Default RE: ZIROLI P-61 BLACK WIDOW BUILD

After the first picture in post #43 the next pictures went kinda blurr hehehe. Nice, very nice Sam- here two must see links for you
[link=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PN_oDdGmKyA]link 1[/link]
[link=http://www.miniatur-wunderland.com/]link 2[/link]

Pretty good pace with that build.
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Old 12-11-2009, 02:36 PM
  #53
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Default RE: ZIROLI P-61 BLACK WIDOW BUILD

Sam, here is a schematic for an air setup, nose gear two mains, UP-3 valve and two large tanks. The fail safe is from tam jet [link=http://www.tamjets.com/gearfailsafe.php]click here[/link] and it is worth every nickel. I set mine on 50psi...
I numbered mine with Home Depot electrical wire numbers (around $3)
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Old 12-11-2009, 07:48 PM
  #54
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Default RE: ZIROLI P-61 BLACK WIDOW BUILD

Yo G-Pete,
Yep, No matter what you have, somebody's got one bigger and better!
Thanks for the info: I've got a couple UP valves in my stock along with Jomar door sequencers: both work very well:
http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXCJE1&P=7


===========
Center fuse (cont)

Formers F-1 to F-3 and nose gear mounts.
As previously mentioned, I made up new aircraft ply for the original 3 ply for formers F-1 to F-3.
Since nose weight is normally (seems always!) needed up front, I'm epoxy'ing the old 3 ply to the new 5 ply formers for F-1 to F-3.
To span the thicker formers and give me a little 'wiggle room', I made up new nose gear mounts from hard maple.
The nose gear has a bolt head sticking out of each side so to clear them, the bolt holes are only 7/64" in from the edge.
On option would be to grind a notch in the sides of the wooden mounts for the bolt but the formers already have the spacing of 1 7/8" between mounts so I opted for close to the edge. I drilled for #6 hex head screws and blind nuts. The blind nuts flanges hung over the side of the mount and were ground off.
I'm parcel to epoxy'ing the wood mounts with the gear attached to insure everything is aligned as non-parallel wood mounts can cause the gear to bind. This way, I sand the formers to fit the mount versus cutting the wood mounts to fit the gear.
The install with the gear means some adjustment for the install:
First I had to move the nose of the crutch out over the end of the table for 'gear room'.
I had to cut a 2" hole in my work table: to insure the crutch stays level, once the gear is on, I have to then move the crutch back over the table so the oleo goes into the hole so I can now support both ends of the crutch.
Also, former F-2 is put on when F-1 and F-3 are epoxied but not secured to the crutch or mounts: once the epoxy dries for F-1 and F-3, the nose gear is removed and then F-2 is epoxied in place. Until the fuse is sheeted and the doors cut out, the nose gear can only be mounted for installing F-1 and F-3. F-2 only has one side touching the wood mounts so it is secondary in any gear support.

pic 1:
new hard maple wood supports an extra 5/8" longer (8 1/2" total)

pic 2/3:
A small vise is used to secure the blind nuts firmly in place.
After drilling the holes for the #6 screws, I then flip over the mount and drill a slightly larger hole about a 1/4" deep so the blind nuts will easily slide into the hole. The barbs and a little epoxy holds them in place.

pic 4:
Dry fit gear and wooden mounts to F-1,2,3.

pic 5:
Here, the fuse is extended past the table to install the gear assembly.

pic 6/7:
2 1/2" hole in table for gear.

pic 8:
dry fit of gear and formers.
F-3 put on first, then F-2 is moved to a couple inches of F-3 so the gear assembly can be put into F-3's mount holes.

pic 9:
F-3 is then put on and the wood mounts put into it's mount holes.






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Old 12-11-2009, 07:55 PM
  #55
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Default RE: ZIROLI P-61 BLACK WIDOW BUILD

center fuse (cont)

nose gear and formers install (cont)

pic 1-3:
Each of the double formers F-1, F-2 and F-3 were epoxied together, F-3 epoxied to the crutch, gear assembly epoxied to F-3 and then F-1 epoxied to the front of the gear mounts while F-2 rests on the crutch to be epoxied to the crutch after the other formers 'cook' and the gear removed.

pic 4:
That nose gear sure looks far out from the wing: with all that canopy and the gear door opening, I better make sure that planking is secure and a good FG cloth is applied!
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Old 12-11-2009, 08:17 PM
  #56
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Default RE: ZIROLI P-61 BLACK WIDOW BUILD

Sam thanks for answer!is the case to say you are going like trains! GREAT SAM!
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Old 12-12-2009, 12:26 AM
  #57
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Default RE: ZIROLI P-61 BLACK WIDOW BUILD

AT-6:
thanks.

================

Center fuse (cont)

Stringers
After removing the gear and finishing epoxy'ing in F-2, it was time to do some 'stringers'.
Initially, I was just going to start, blindly, putting in stringers into the former notches but I decided that I'd better number them first (good thing because the first one would have been incorrect!).
I started numbering at the bottom notch on each former as -6 and worked up to 0 along the side (just under the bottom wing support).
I then started positive numbers from 1 to 6 (on some formers but only +3 in other formers).
The stringers are only about an inch longer than the fuse so, virtually, no waste.
I started on the left side at 0 and worked down to -3 and then from +1 to +3.
I used a piece of scrap stringer to check each notch: usually they needed 2-4 strokes of sanding to get the stringer to fit in the notch.
I then dry fitted the full length stringer along the entire length of the fuse (usually) and put a tick mark on the stringer where the stringer contacted each former. I could then remove the stringer, put carpenters glue on each tick mark and re-insert the stringer.
Most of the time the snug fit kept the stringer in each notch.
After getting the left side done, I figured that I'd better get the right side done, tonight, to prevent any possible warping of the fuse.

pic 1/2:
Formers all numbered by each notch.

pic 3:
Only about an inch of waste per stringer.

pic 4/5:
-3 to 0 and +1 stringers have been added.

pic 6:
This short piece of stringer was bowing in the middle on some ply, with no place to use a pin, so I put carpenters glue along the length except about a half inch in the middle where I put some CA after putting the stringer in place; the CA holding the stringer in place until the carpenters glue dried.

pic 7:
This completes, for tonight, what I'll be stringing on the left side from -3 to +4.

EITHER A COOL IDEA OR NOT WORTH IT!
pic 8:
While 'stringing', I was remembering how long the fuse is from the wing to the nose gear and was thinking that a double wall along the stringers would really make that area strong (like shear webbing). Along the inside of the stringers, between each former, I was thinking of sheeting that area so the fuse would have a double wall, with stringers in the middle, between the wing and nose gear!!

pic 9:
This BVM metal sander works nice in sanding the former notches to the proper size.

pic 10:
Before I forget and cover them up, I epoxied the nose gear blind nuts.

pic 11:
Tick marks on the stringer at each former so I know where to apply the carpenters glue.
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Old 12-12-2009, 12:27 AM
  #58
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Default RE: ZIROLI P-61 BLACK WIDOW BUILD

Center fuse (cont)

Stringers (cont)

Finished up the same number of stringers on the right side.
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Old 12-12-2009, 11:03 AM
  #59
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Default RE: ZIROLI P-61 BLACK WIDOW BUILD

Sam thanks to you!....Sam would be possible to post some information about the variant of the P-61 B on your thread? Mean the version "F-15 A" .. right now I am working on this ... I want to help lend a hand if possible make even more 'interesting this thread! .. I do that?
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Old 12-12-2009, 11:28 AM
  #60
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Default RE: ZIROLI P-61 BLACK WIDOW BUILD

AT-6,
Anything about the P-61 is welcomed.

=================

Center fuse (cont)

Planking.
The first planking was applied (the easiest!): a 1/8" thick X 4" X 4' along the right side.
The 4' long piece covers the entire length.
I used every type of clamp that I have plus rubber bands, pins and paint sticks!
Carpenters glue was used: fortunately this glue takes awhile to set up because, by the time I was finished with the clamping, some of the glue was waste glue that was dripping out was starting to dry: probably any other glue would dry too quickly.
Since this is a large piece of planking, I used some of my 'buck shot' lead in butter containers that weigh in at 7 lbs each to hold the crutch to the risers to insure no warping would occur.

pic 1-4:
A menagerie of holding devices!

pic 5:
7 lbs weight insures the frame stays warp free!

============
Center wing

While the center fuse is drying, I figured that I'd might as well start on the center wing (what's that they say about 'idle hands'!).
There are three main light ply spars (wing supports) in the center wing.
The plans provide a side view so all three can be glued up at the proper angle.

pic 6:
center wing plans.

pic 7:
I tack glued the 'legs' to each of the two outer ribs (R-7) which gives us the proper angle of support.
Using the template on the plans, I made sure rib and leg were exactly in the correct place before tack gluing.
(I finally found out what those pieces of ply were for!)

pic 8:
While on the subject of 'what are those for', I also found out that those balsa pieces labeled OL are to support the FG nose.

pic 9:
The three main spars (wing supports) laid out on the plan.

pic 10:
the template on the plans to get the exact angle correctly for the three spars.

pic 11:
The first spar epoxied together.
Each half of the spar (WS-2) laid exactly on the upper line on the plans and WS-2A then was glued to it.
With two large surfaces being glued, I first heated the epoxy (separately) in the microwave so I could 'butter' a nice thin layer of epoxy on each surface and then I used a 14 lbs of 'buck shot' in a can to hold them together.
I also put pins around the assembly to keep the parts from sliding, as parts tend to slide when put under pressure when a liquid is between them (nothing worse than coming back to your project 30 minutes later to find out the parts have moved and the epoxy is now rock hard).

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Old 12-12-2009, 11:53 AM
  #61
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Default RE: ZIROLI P-61 BLACK WIDOW BUILD

THANKS!
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Old 12-12-2009, 02:11 PM
  #62
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Default RE: ZIROLI P-61 BLACK WIDOW BUILD

Center fuse (cont)

planking (cont)

pic 1/2:
left side a duplication of the right sides planking with full 4" X 4' long.

=====

Center wing (cont)

pic 3/4:
Spars WS-4 epoxied to WS-4A and same for WS-1 to WS-1A.

pic 5:
Dry fit of spars WS-2 and WS-4 to ribs R-2 through R-7.
Interesting: all ply is 5 ply aircraft ply on all parts (WS-1,4 and ribs R-2,5,6,7) except the largest spar (WS-2) which is the 3 ply lite stuff..
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Old 12-12-2009, 05:18 PM
  #63
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Default RE: ZIROLI P-61 BLACK WIDOW BUILD

ok guys I'm in back!.....EUREKA! i find the difference to length model airplane and the original length aircraft. the distance from to Ziroli P-61B and the true P-61B is to 6,02"inch and the distance from to Ziroli P-61B and the true F-15A is to 15,98" INCH. OK now we haves two measure,and we must subtract 15,98" at 6,02"=9,96"inch /7=1,42"inch+84=85,42inch. and then is the full length to F-15A model.

p.s change the fuselage frames,canopy and the nose fiber glass.that last is to 1,42"inch,but not change the distance to the first frames " F-1" at the last frames "F-12".
for the rest and almost exactly like the original design except for engine hoods that are always 1.42 "inches more than the original.
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Old 12-13-2009, 02:04 AM
  #64
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Default RE: ZIROLI P-61 BLACK WIDOW BUILD

Center fuse (cont)

I decided to shear web the fuse from the front of the wing to the nose.
I used 3/32" thick balsa and it only took a few inches past one full sheet so weight is minimum.
The shear web is perpendicular to the planking.
I did this for two reasons:
1) strengthen those long nose when the gear nose on it
2) all of that is in the cockpit area so the walls are already prep'ed for the cockpit detail.
I finished up putting in all the stringers on the center fuse.

pic 1/2:
F-1A/B (nose gear door: front ) and F-5A (nose gear door: back) were installed before running the remaining stringers.
After sheeting, the doors will be cut out along these formers.

pic 3/4:
Shear webbing installed.

pic 5:
stringers complete.

==============
Center wing (cont)

After the dry fit of the two spars WS-2/4 to the ribs, every thing was aligned on the plans as the bases.
To insure all ribs are aligned with each other, an 'L' angle bracket was attached to the table, the front of the ribs were pushed against it and weights at the rear kept them in contact with the 'L' bracket. A carpenters square was secured to the 'L' and the right rib was then aligned to the square.
A straight stick was also run along the tails of all the ribs to insure that they are all aligned with each other.
With everything 'good to go', I epoxied the ribs to WS-2/4.
After the epoxy dried, the additional 1/4" square and 1/4"X1/2" main spars were also epoxied to the assembly.
All these spars are spruce.
The top of WS-2 runs next to the main spar but needed clamps the entire length to hold the two pieces together.

pic 6/7:
WS-1 (the lead edge) has to be contoured to match the front of the ribs.
A reference line was drawn, length wise, about and 1/8" in from the edge.
Another reference line was drawn on the other side right on the edge to let me know if I accidentally sand that side, which is not to be sanded, I can tell by the disappearance of the line. Since the LE is aircraft ply, I used an oscillating belt sander to remove the waste material.

pic 8:
I held the piece about 45 degrees to the sander.

pic 9:
Dry fit of LE to the ribs.

pic 10:
A straight stick to check tail rib alignment.
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Old 12-13-2009, 02:08 AM
  #65
samparfitt
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Default RE: ZIROLI P-61 BLACK WIDOW BUILD

Center wing (cont)

pic 1-3:
ribs epoxied to WS-2/4.
carpenters square to check for ribs perpendicular to WS-2 and 'L' bracket to insure all ribs are in the same plane (mathematical plane).

pic 4:
top spruce spars epoxied to the center wing.
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Old 12-13-2009, 10:25 AM
  #66
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Default RE: ZIROLI P-61 BLACK WIDOW BUILD

Center wing (cont)

BAD DAY AT THE OFFICE!
This morning I found several mistakes made on the center wing (what happens when you work until 2 AM!).
1) WS-3 should have been mounted with the ribs since they have two tabs sticking out preventing them from sliding between the ribs.
No big deal as I just sawed off the top two tabs and slid WS-3 in position from the bottom of the wing.
2) Rib R-6 wing hole is not aligned with W-5 and W-7's wing hole: not my fault but I should have dry fitted the wing tube as it would have been easier to sand the rib separate from the wing.
3) There are two wing support plys W-7A that appear to be put on when the outer rib R-7 is glued to the main spar since W-7A has a tab that would go between the spar and the rib.
When I was gluing the spar to the rib, though, the tabs on the end of spar are only wide enough for R-7.
Again, no big deal as there is a tab on W-7A that I just cut off so it fits into its proper location.
4) The left outer most rib (R-7) needs to be perpendicular to the horizon. On my 'glue up' of the wing, I was busy checking all the different alignments and forgot the left side. Last night (early morning!), I was checking that both outer ribs (R-7) were exactly parallel to each other, via tape measure (39 5/8"), and the left one was not the correct distance at the front spar (since the right rib R-7 is aligned to the carpenters square). After getting the measurement corrected, I forget the 'perpendicular' check.
The left rib had about a 1/16" gap at the bottom which would really 'throw off' the outer wings height at the wing tip so I had to fix it. I used a razor saw to cut the bottom of the rib from the two spars, used three squares to get proper adjustment and re-epoxied the rib. Since there was a gap at the bottom between the rib and spars, I used the waste 1/4" square spruce material as additional support.
(I'm glad that's all fixed!)
Even without any sheeting, with all the aircraft ply in the parts and lots of epoxy, the wing is very stiff.
I'll probably be using epoxy to sheet the wing since carpenters glue bonds best to porous material and the aircraft ply's edges are very smooth and I've got a lot of epoxy everywhere while assembling the wing parts!

pic 1:
The top tabs on WS-3 sawed off so it would fit between the ribs.
Bottom of wing showed in picture.

pic 2:
R-6 rib wing tube hole sanded for proper fit.

pic 3:
The two wing tube supports sistered to the ribs R-5/7.

pic 4:
Left rib cut and re-glued for proper alignment.

pic 5/6:
1/4" square spruce used to re-enforce R-7.
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Old 12-13-2009, 11:01 AM
  #67
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Default RE: ZIROLI P-61 BLACK WIDOW BUILD

Sam:

Awfully good progress. I hope you can keep it up!

I have two sorta oppositional comments about your beefing up the front section and nosegear attachment structures:

1: You are correct about the nose being long and a relatively weak part of the overall airframe. I have some rather horrifying footage of me not slowing my decent rate enough in a crosswind, setting down too hard and collapsing my left main gear, which turned "Blackie" enough sideways that it caused the entire nose section to EXPLODE off at the level of the LE. The rest of the plane, even the props, was unhurt. Not sure if beefing up would help with those kind of forces, but might protect against lesser incidents.

2: As opposed to all other WWII birds I've had, including the P-38's, NONE of my 3 P-61's has needed nose lead. Two of them needed the battery out on the nose platform, but Blackie (with the G-62's) didn't even need that. I'm sure it won't be a problem with you, since it takes a lot of epoxy and wood to equal a blob of lead, and you can always give yourself the luxury of building the tail a little heavier.

Keep up the excellent work, and keep the pictures coming, please! I'm really enjoying this thread.



mt
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Old 12-13-2009, 12:27 PM
  #68
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Default RE: ZIROLI P-61 BLACK WIDOW BUILD

Kram,
Thanks for the picture, comments and info.
You're probably right on the nose but for the weight of one sheet of 3/32" thick light balsa, if it saves me 'I wish I would of', then I'll be happy. I don't expect it to save any bad landings: my main concern is that I shouldn't have to worry about, after I land, will the nose hold up if the grass is rough or if I go off the end of the runway. That's the only reason for putting in the shear webbing.

Yep, it's nice to have a 'too heavy nose' plane as it's so easy to fix (I prefer a little nose heavy anyway on my warbirds: especially on maidens).
With a couple of big, heavy G-62's, that might happen!

============
Center wing (cont)

pic 1/2:
It took awhile just to put in the three bottom spruce spars: lots of epoxy from previous work dripped on those areas and I had to sand it out (no time to be neat when you're trying to set up a couple dozen items and check all the alignments before the epoxy dries!).
That's about it for today: got some other 'stuff' to do.
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Old 12-14-2009, 12:26 AM
  #69
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Default RE: ZIROLI P-61 BLACK WIDOW BUILD

Center wing (cont)

Miscellaneous small parts.
I was missing a few pieces from the flaps and TE of the wing buildup.
They were in multiples of two or four so I used double stick tape for the parts to insure accuracy and speed.

pic 1:
Jointed, carpenters glue and some sanding on some new sheeting for the wings.
3/32" thick to make two sheets a foot wide and two 8" wide.

pic 2:
LE epoxied on.
wing secured to the 'L' bracket and outside ribs were aligned for parallel to each other and straight and also perpendicular to the 'L' bracket before gluing the LE.

pic 3/4:
a few small parts were missing so new ones were made up from the plans.

pic 5:
W-4A epoxied to wing (wing rib next to outside edge of flap).
A piece of light balsa clamped to two ribs to give the TE of W-4A a place 'to rest' until the epoxy 'cooks'.

pic 6:
WS-5 epoxied to back of wing.
Plans do not show this but WS-2 says 'two of' so I used WS-2.

=============
Center fuse (cont)

planking (cont)

pic 7:
A 2 1/4" wide sheet with a taper to 1" at the rear glued onto the left side of the frame using carpenters glue.
Water was added to the sheet for 'kind of' a sharp bend in the center of the fuse.
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Old 12-14-2009, 07:36 AM
  #70
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Default RE: ZIROLI P-61 BLACK WIDOW BUILD

Hi Sam i post an link for you.... http://images.google.it/imgres?imgur...N%26start%3D18... i hope which that is to at you!.
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Old 12-14-2009, 10:01 AM
  #71
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Default RE: ZIROLI P-61 BLACK WIDOW BUILD

If you go on the end of that thread you see the last post (mine), what ever happened to that build? So far nobody answered this was in march of 09. i sent him a PM - he is still around.
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Old 12-14-2009, 06:05 PM
  #72
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Default RE: ZIROLI P-61 BLACK WIDOW BUILD

Hi guys!.....Pete I honestly do not know, but I think it is already flying!
however i find that videos! http://rcuvideos.com/video/Ziroli-Gi...e-P-61-Built-B

Sam i find that link.i hope which that can you! http://www.glennis.com/usawarbirdgallery.htm
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Old 12-14-2009, 06:23 PM
  #73
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Default RE: ZIROLI P-61 BLACK WIDOW BUILD

No AT-6 Sami, I know Dave - this is not that from the RC groups thread...
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Old 12-14-2009, 06:39 PM
  #74
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Default RE: ZIROLI P-61 BLACK WIDOW BUILD

Pete I honestly don't know..and i can not say you what happen! be cause i don't know Dave or the your thread!.. however i thing is all ok!.......but I can not say with certainty.
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Old 12-14-2009, 11:27 PM
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Default RE: ZIROLI P-61 BLACK WIDOW BUILD

Argghh!

I hate videos like that.

Wasted 6 minutes of my life and didn't get to see it fly for a single second.

As far as I'm concerned, if it doesn't fly in the video, it probably doesn't fly at all!


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