perttime

So, it is not Piper L-4...

Beechcraft C-12?

Saburo Sakai

that's me.

Ernie P.

My Feedback: (3)

Sorry, tunakuts3d; I was traveling on business, down in Texas. I got back around 3:00 in the morning, but had to take a side trip into the woods on Saturday to keep an appointment with a nice nine point buck.

By the way; I fond time to visit the Permian Oil Basin Museum in Midland, Texas. A great museum to visit if you're ever in Midland. The exhibits include many historic oil derricks set up on the property, and many indoor exhibits that outline the history of oil and the oil production process. It also has a wing of the museum devoted to the Chaparral racing cars; and has on display all the remaining Chaparral racing cars existing. The personnel at the museum and Chaparral wing are great folks and spent several hours talking to me and explaining things.

I think Perttime hit it with the Beechcraft C-12; but I didn't think Beechcraft received a military contract until after the United States entered WWII. Thanks; Ernie P.

Saburo Sakai

Name the manned bird in Frederick Forsyth's short novel,The Shepherd.. Then try the...."unmanned bird".

MajorTomski

Congrats again sir! We have another winner. What do you have for us today?


Ernie Beech was selling staggerwings to the military in the 2nd year of production.

perttime

The Beech was the closest I could find. But I did not spot a "Z" model. What is special about that one?

I don't have a question yet. Be back when I find something....

perttime

I think this is pretty obscure ...

1) it was designed to an Air Ministry requirement for fighters. It didn't win and that was the end of it
2) 11 designs were proposed to meet the requirement, 6 were actually built: one biplane and 5 monoplanes
3) this was one of the monoplanes
4) as a result of a merger, the company had two designs in the competition. I'm looking for the one with the V 12 engine

perttime

I think this is pretty obscure ...

1) it was designed to an Air Ministry requirement for fighters. It didn't win and that was the end of it
2) 11 designs were proposed to meet the requirement, 6 were actually built: one biplane and 5 monoplanes
3) this was one of the monoplanes
4) as a result of a merger, the company had two designs in the competition. I'm looking for the one with the V 12 engine

5) construction was advanced for the time: metal monocoque fuselage and metal skin wings. (the design that beat it was partly fabric covered)

Ernie P.

My Feedback: (3)

I didn't realize that, MajorTomski. Not arguing your facts, I just didn't know that. I though the Army bought the first military (US military, anyhow) Staggerwings in 1938. Can you point me to something that gives the background on the first US Military Staggerwings? Thanks; Ernie P.


The Beech UC-43 Traveler was a slightly modified version of the Staggerwing. In late 1938, the United States Army Air Corps purchased three Model D17S to evaluate them for use as light liaison aircraft. These were designated YC-43. After a short flight test program, the YC-43s went to Europe to serve as liaison aircraft with the air attachés in London, Paris, and Rome.

Early in World War II, the need for a compact executive-type transport or courier aircraft became apparent, and in 1942 the United States Army Air Forces ordered the first of 270 Model 17s for service within the United States and overseas as the UC-43. These differed only in minor details from the commercial model. To meet urgent wartime needs, the government also purchased or leased (impressed) additional "Staggerwings" from private owners including 118 more for the Army Air Force plus others for the United States Navy. In Navy service the planes were designated as GB-1 and GB-2. The British Royal Air Force and Royal Navy acquired 106 "Traveller Mk. I" (the British name uses the UK double "l" spelling) through the Lend-Lease arrangement to fill its own critical need for light personnel transports.

Military designationsYC-43
Three Model D17S with a 450hp R-985-17 engine for evaluation by the United States Army Air Corps
UC-43 Traveler
Production version with a 450hp R-985-AN-1 engine, 75 ordered for the USAAC and 63 for the United States Navy as the GB-1, 132 were later transferred from the USN to the USAAC.

mobyal

Here's a pic or two of the scheme used on the S'Wing assigned to the London Embassy during the war.

Ernie P.

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A neat looking paint scheme. Thanks. That must be one of the first three mentioned in the article I read. But apparently, there were other US military purchases before that, and that's what I'm trying to track down. I think it's neat to be able to hunt down facts like that; trying to figure out what really happened and who did what, when. Thanks again; Ernie P.

jessiej

Has anyone asked who was the top Brewster Buffalo ace?

jess

skylarkmk1

Finnish Air Force Capt. Hans H. Wind with 39 Buffalo air victories.

perttime

... and second was WO Eino Ilmari Juutilainen, with 34 (out of 94 confirmed)
.................................................. .................................................

I think this is pretty obscure ...

1) it was designed to an Air Ministry requirement for fighters. It didn't win and that was the end of it
2) 11 designs were proposed to meet the requirement, 6 were actually built: one biplane and 5 monoplanes
3) this was one of the monoplanes
4) as a result of a merger, the company had two designs in the competition. I'm looking for the one with the V 12 engine

5) construction was advanced for the time: metal monocoque fuselage and metal skin wings. (the design that beat it was partly fabric covered)

6) its armament consisted of a 20mm engine-mounted cannon and two wing-mounted 7.5mm machine guns

MajorTomski

My data came out of "aerophiles"

http://www.aerofiles.com/_beech.html

Since the first "production" model 17 came out in '35 I based the statement on the following:

B17R 1935 (ATC 579) = Similar to B17E with 420hp Wright R-975-E3; load: 1362# v: 211/202/55 range: 760 ceiling: 22,000'. $14,500; POP: 16, of which 3 to USAAF as C-43H; 1 converted from B17E [NC14413].

perttime

I think this is pretty obscure ...

1) it was designed to an Air Ministry requirement for fighters. It didn't win and that was the end of it
2) 11 designs were proposed to meet the requirement, 6 were actually built: one biplane and 5 monoplanes
3) this was one of the monoplanes
4) as a result of a merger, the company had two designs in the competition. I'm looking for the one with the V 12 engine

5) construction was advanced for the time: metal monocoque fuselage and metal skin wings. (the design that beat it was partly fabric covered)

6) its armament consisted of a 20mm engine-mounted cannon and two wing-mounted 7.5mm machine guns

7) with all the mergers going on, prototypes were built under three different company names.
8) The first one flew in 1935. After some modifications and getting the correct engine, it was given a different model number. It showed great promise, so three more were ordered.

jessiej

That was quick

jess

perttime

I think this is pretty obscure ...

1) it was designed to an Air Ministry requirement for fighters. It didn't win and that was the end of it
2) 11 designs were proposed to meet the requirement, 6 were actually built: one biplane and 5 monoplanes
3) this was one of the monoplanes
4) as a result of a merger, the company had two designs in the competition. I'm looking for the one with the V 12 engine

5) construction was advanced for the time: metal monocoque fuselage and metal skin wings. (the design that beat it was partly fabric covered)

6) its armament consisted of a 20mm engine-mounted cannon and two wing-mounted 7.5mm machine guns

7) with all the mergers going on, prototypes were built under three different company names.
8) The first one flew in 1935. After some modifications and getting the correct engine, it was given a different model number. It showed great promise, so three more were ordered.

9) by early 1938, two more prototypes flew, first two prototypes crashed, and another aircraft got the contract
10) that "other aircraft" was no match against the Bf 109E in 1940

metaldriver

Martinbaker mb-3

Ernie P.

My Feedback: (3)

I think I, and others, were led astray by your initial clue into thinking we were talking about a British aircraft. Once I realized that it probably wasn't British, a couple of things fell into place pretty quickly. Thanks; Ernie P.


Loire-Nieuport L.N.161

During 1934, the Ateliers et Chantiers de la Loire amalgamated with the Societe Nieuport-Astra to result in the Groupement Aviation Loire-Nieuport. The two concerns maintained separate design offices which, at times, were to find themselves in competition, a case in point being the LN 161. This, like the Loire 250, was intended to meet the requirements of the 1934 Service Technique specification for a new single-seat fighter. Designed by engineers Mary and Dieudonne, it was of advanced structural concept with an all-metal monocoque fuselage and a metal stressed-skin wing. Armament comprised a 20mm engine-mounted cannon and two wing-mounted 7.5mm machine guns. Although designed for the 860hp Hispano-Suiza 12Ycrs engine, the non-availability of this power plant dictated installation of a 690hp HS 12Xcrs engine driving a twobladed fixed-pitch propeller. The prototype flew as the Nieuport 160 on 5 October 1935. In the following November, it was returned to the factory for various modifications and installation of the definitive engine, resuming flight test at the end of March 1936 as the Nieuport 161 fitted with a three-bladed two-pitch propeller. The prototype showed considerable promise and was the favoured contender for Armee de l'Air orders, three additional prototypes being contracted. The first prototype crashed on 22 September 1936, and the second prototype, temporarily designated SNCAO 161 (Loire-Nieuport having meanwhile been absorbed by the Societe Nationale de Constructions Aeronautiques de l'Ouest), did not enter flight test until 15 October 1937. The third prototype, bearing the definitive designation of Loire-Nieuport 161, followed in March 1938. During the next month, the second prototype was written off in a landing accident, but the results of testing were by then of purely academic interest as the Morane-Saulnier contender had been ordered into production. Consequently, the fourth prototype was not completed.

Ernie P.

My Feedback: (3)

Oh.... and of course, the plane it beat out, which was pretty roughly handled by the Bf-109, was the Morane Saulnier. Which, by curious coincidence, also served in Finland. Very good, perttime. Thanks; Ernie P.


Operational history

In late 1930s a war with Germany was clearly looming, and the Armée de l'Air placed an order for 1,000 airframes in March 1938. Morane-Saulnier was unable to produce anywhere near this number at their own factory, so a second line was set up at the nationalized factories of SNCAO at St. Nazaire converted to produce the type. Production began in late 1938, and the first production example flew on 29 January 1939. Deliveries were hampered more by the slow deliveries of the engines than by lack of airframes.

By April 1939, the production lines were delivering six aircraft a day, and when the war opened on 3 September 1939, production was at 11 a day with 535 in service. Production of the M.S.406 ended in March 1940, after the original order for 1,000 had been delivered to the Armée de l'Air, and a further 77 for foreign users (30 for Finland and 45 for Turkey). Additional orders for Lithuania and Poland were canceled with the outbreak of the war.

The MS 406 equipped 16 Groupes de Chasse and three Escadrilles in France and overseas, and 12 of the Groupes saw action against the Luftwaffe. The aircraft was very manoeuvrable and could withstand heavy battle damage, but was outclassed by the Bf 109 and losses were heavy (150 aircraft lost in action and 250-300 lost through other causes). [15] After the armistice, only one Vichy unit, GC. 1/7, was equipped with the MS. 406. [15]

Germany took possession of a large number of M.S.406s and the later M.S.410s. The Luftwaffe used a number for training, and sold off others. Finland purchased additional M.S.406s (as well as a few 406/410 hybrids) from the Germans, while others were passed off to Italy and Croatia. Those still in French hands saw action in Syria against the RAF, and on Madagascar against the Fleet Air Arm. Both Switzerland and Turkey also operated the type; the Swiss actually managing to down a number of both German and Allied aircraft, 1944-1945.[16]

Before the Pacific campaign proper, Vichy authorities in French Indochina were engaged in a frontier war against Thailand, during 1940-41. A number of M.S.406s stationed in Indochina downed Thai fighters before the French Air Force abandoned the theatre. Some examples of the M.S.406 were captured by the Thai Air Force.

In Finnish service
The M.S.406 had a parallel career in Finland. In February 1940 the first 30 French fighters were allocated to LeLv 28, commanded by Major Jusu. These aircraft received the Finnish designations MS-301 to MS-330. They were used in combat during the Winter War, against the USSR and carried out 259 operational sorties and shot down 16 Soviet aircraft.[11] In modified form, the M.S.406 were later involved in the Continuation War. Between November 1939 and 4 September 1944, Lv28 scored 118 aerial victories flying the Morane M.S.406 (the unit flew Bf 109Gs for a time, as well). The unit lost 15 aircraft.[17] Total Finnish kills amounted to 121. The top Morane ace in all theatres was W/O Urho Lehtovaara, with 15 of his 44.5 total kills achieved in Moranes.[18] The Finnish nicknames were Murjaani (blackmoor), a twist on its name, and Mätimaha (roe-belly) and Riippuvatsa (hanging belly) for its bulged ventral fuselage.

perttime

Correct!
Loire-Nieuport L.N.161 / Nieuport Ni-161 / SNCAO 161

I started my clues with a Google translation of the French wikipedia article, and got the "Air Ministry" from there. The rest is from the aviastar article.

Morane-Saulnier 406 served in lots of countries. This time the Finnish connection was accidental:
I first wanted to post something else from France but got the feeling that I had done that one already. Looks as if "Search This Thread" is not working very well now.
...................

Your turn Ernie.

Ernie P.

My Feedback: (3)

Ernie P.

My Feedback: (3)

Okay; here we go. Thanks; Ernie P.

Question: I’m looking for a warbird which was both successful and very widely used.

Clues:

(1) It was a light bomber.

(2) The design was so successful that a number of derivative aircraft were produced.

Ernie P.

My Feedback: (3)

And we continue. Thanks; Ernie P.


Question: I’m looking for a warbird which was both successful and very widely used.

Clues:

(1) It was a light bomber.

(2) The design was so successful that a number of derivative aircraft were produced.

(3) It was designed by one of the most famous designers of all time.