Knowledge Quiz for Warbird wiz
08-07-2018, 08:57 AM
Senior Member
My Feedback: (3)
Neither the Mitchell nor the Wellington, CF105; but here's an afternoon and a bonus clue for you. Thanks; Ernie P.
What warbird do I describe?
1. This aircraft was designed, and came into service prior to WWII.
2. It was designed for one role, but ultimately became famous for another.
3. It was named for a famous military figure.
4. A military figure NOT involved with aircraft in any way.
5. All the major combatants in WWII seem to have had an aircraft with similar performance characteristics, and performing the same general duties, as our subject aircraft.
6. The chief designer used a rather unique approach. He spent a lot of time talking to the pilots who would be flying the aircraft; finding out what they thought was needed in a new aircraft.
7. Which is not to say that those who would be making the decisions were necessarily of the same opinion.
8. The opinions of the pilots seemed to indicate the most important requirements were field of view, low speed handling characteristics and the ability to take off and land in limited areas.
9. And that is what the designers set out to deliver.
What warbird do I describe?
1. This aircraft was designed, and came into service prior to WWII.
2. It was designed for one role, but ultimately became famous for another.
3. It was named for a famous military figure.
4. A military figure NOT involved with aircraft in any way.
5. All the major combatants in WWII seem to have had an aircraft with similar performance characteristics, and performing the same general duties, as our subject aircraft.
6. The chief designer used a rather unique approach. He spent a lot of time talking to the pilots who would be flying the aircraft; finding out what they thought was needed in a new aircraft.
7. Which is not to say that those who would be making the decisions were necessarily of the same opinion.
8. The opinions of the pilots seemed to indicate the most important requirements were field of view, low speed handling characteristics and the ability to take off and land in limited areas.
9. And that is what the designers set out to deliver.
08-07-2018, 02:33 PM
Senior Member
My Feedback: (3)
And SimonCraig1 scores yet again! Good job, Sir; and well done! The really interesting backstory of the Lysander is how the designers set out to build an airplane that did exactly what the pilots wanted; but somehow forgot to bring the customers (British Army) in on the design phase. The result was a 6,500 pound plane that did the job of a Piper Cub. You have the floor, SimonCraig1. Thanks; Ernie P.
What warbird do I describe?
1. This aircraft was designed, and came into service prior to WWII.
2. It was designed for one role, but ultimately became famous for another.
3. It was named for a famous military figure.
4. A military figure NOT involved with aircraft in any way.
5. All the major combatants in WWII seem to have had an aircraft with similar performance characteristics, and performing the same general duties, as our subject aircraft.
6. The chief designer used a rather unique approach. He spent a lot of time talking to the pilots who would be flying the aircraft; finding out what they thought was needed in a new aircraft.
7. Which is not to say that those who would be making the decisions were necessarily of the same opinion.
8. The opinions of the pilots seemed to indicate the most important requirements were field of view, low speed handling characteristics and the ability to take off and land in limited areas.
9. And that is what the designers set out to deliver.
10. The resulting aircraft, at first glance, would not seem to be the sort of aircraft to suit its intended role.
11. Despite a somewhat ungainly appearance, it was actually quite advanced from an aerodynamic standpoint.
12. It featured a variable incidence tailplane (i.e., a “flying tail”) slotted flaps and fully automatic wing slots.
13. These features allowed it to operate from improvised runways, which was important.
14. It was a lot larger, and a lot heavier, than most of the aircraft fielded by other countries to fill the intended role. On the other hand, it was a lot faster.
15. Its introduction to combat was not exactly a complete success. In simple terms, the units flying the plane were slaughtered.
16. Total loss rates for the planes committed to battle were upwards of 60%.
17. The plane was criticized as being too fast to do its primary job, and too slow to escape destruction if enemy aircraft caught it doing its job.
18. It was criticized as being (at the same time) too fast, too slow, too big, too heavy and totally unsuited for the two main roles it was intended to fulfill.
19. Other aircraft, very different from one another, were brought in as replacements. Essentially, the two main roles if was to fulfill were split among two different types. One role was now taken over by lighter and slower aircraft; and the other by heavier and faster aircraft.
20. Our subject aircraft was given a role in patrol and rescue work, but this was a minor and mainly temporary mission.
21. A new unit was formed to do very special operations, and they found our subject aircraft to be just what they needed.
Answer: RAF Lysander
The Westland Lysander (nickname the "Lizzie") is a British army co-operation and liaison aircraft produced by Westland Aircraft used immediately before and during the Second World War. After becoming obsolete in the army co-operation role, the aircraft's exceptional short-field performance enabled clandestine missions using small, improvised airstrips behind enemy lines to place or recover agents, particularly in occupied France with the help of the French Resistance. British Army air co-operation aircraft were named after mythical or historical military leaders; in this case the Spartan admiral Lysander was chosen.
Davenport and Petter designed an aircraft to incorporate these features with unconventional results. The Lysander was powered by a Bristol Mercury air-cooled radial engine and had high wings and a fixed conventional landing gear mounted on an innovative inverted U square-section tube that supported wing struts at the apex, was in itself resilient, and contained (internal) springs for the faired wheels. The large streamlined spats also each contained a mounting for a Browning machine gun and for small, removable stub wings that could be used to carry light bombs or supply canisters. The wings had a reverse taper towards the root, which gave the impression of a bent gull wing from some angles, although the spars were straight. It had a girder type construction faired with a light wood stringers to give the aerodynamic shape. The forward fuselage was duralumin tube joined with brackets and plates, and the after part was welded stainless steel tubes. Plates and brackets were cut from channel extrusions rather than being formed from sheet steel. The front spar and lift struts were extrusions. The wing itself was fabric covered, and its thickness was maximized at the lift strut anchorage location, similar to that of later marks of the Stinson Reliant high-winged transport monoplane. Despite its appearance, the Lysander was aerodynamically advanced; being equipped with fully automatic wing slots and slotted flaps and a variable incidence tailplane. These refinements gave the Lysander a stalling speed of only 65 mph (104 km/h, 56.5 knots). It also featured the largest Elektron alloy extrusion made at the time: the one-piece frame already mentioned that supporting the wings and wheels. (This was a feature of British-built aircraft only – Canadian-built machines had a conventionally fabricated assembly due to the difficulties involved in manufacturing such a large extrusion.) The Air Ministry requested two prototypes of the P.8 and the competing Bristol Type 148, quickly selecting the Westland aircraft for production and issuing a contract in September 1936.
The first Lysanders entered service in June 1938, equipping squadrons for army co-operation and were initially used for message-dropping and artillery spotting. When war broke out in Europe, the earlier Mk Is had been largely replaced by Mk IIs, the older machines heading for the Middle East. Some of these aircraft, now designated type L.1, operated with the Chindits of the British Indian Army in the Burma Campaign of the Second World War.
Four regular squadrons equipped with Lysanders accompanied the British Expeditionary Force to France in October 1939, and were joined by a further squadron early in 1940. Following the German invasion of France and the low countries on 10 May 1940, Lysanders were put into action as spotters and light bombers. In spite of occasional victories against German aircraft, they made very easy targets for the Luftwaffe even when escorted by Hurricanes. Withdrawn from France during the Dunkirk evacuation, they continued to fly supply-dropping missions to Allied forces from bases in England; on one mission to drop supplies to troops trapped at Calais, 14 of 16 Lysanders and Hawker Hectors that set out were lost. 118 Lysanders were lost in or over France and Belgium in May and June 1940, of a total of 175 deployed. With the fall of France, it was clear that the type was unsuitable for the coastal patrol and army co-operation role, being described by Air Marshal Arthur Barratt, commander-in-chief of the British Air Forces in France as "quite unsuited to the task; a faster, less vulnerable aircraft was required. The view of Army AOP pilots was that the Lysander was too fast for artillery spotting purposes, too slow and unmanoeuverable to avoid fighters, too big to conceal quickly on a landing field, too heavy to use on soft ground and had been developed by the RAF without ever asking the Army what was needed. Nevertheless, throughout the remainder of 1940, Lysanders flew dawn and dusk patrols off the coast and in the event of an invasion of Britain, they were tasked with attacking the landing beaches with light bombs and machine guns.
They were replaced in the home-based army co-operation role from 1941 by camera-equipped fighters such as the Curtiss Tomahawk and North American Mustang carrying out reconnaissance operations, while light aircraft such as the Taylorcraft Auster were used to direct artillery. Some UK-based Lysanders went to work operating air-sea rescue, dropping dinghies to downed RAF aircrew in the English Channel. Fourteen squadrons and flights were formed for this role in 1940 and 1941.
Special duties
In August 1941 a new squadron, No. 138 (Special Duties), was formed to undertake missions for the Special Operations Executive to maintain clandestine contact with the French Resistance. Among its aircraft were Lysander Mk IIIs, which flew over and landed in occupied France. While general supply drops could be left to the rest of No. 138's aircraft, the Lysander could insert and remove agents from the continent or retrieve Allied aircrew who had been shot down over occupied territory and had evaded capture. For this role the Mk IIIs were fitted with a fixed ladder over the port side to hasten access to the rear cockpit and a large drop tank under the belly. In order to slip in unobtrusively Lysanders were painted matte black (some early examples had brown/green camouflaged upper surfaces and later examples had grey/green upper surfaces); operations almost always took place within a week of a full moon, as moonlight was essential for navigation. The aircraft undertook such duties until the liberation of France in 1944. Lysanders flew from secret airfields at Newmarket and later Tempsford, but used regular RAF stations to fuel-up for the actual crossing, particularly RAF Tangmere. Flying without any navigation equipment other than a map and compass, Lysanders would land on short strips of land, such as fields, marked out by four or five torches. Or to avoid having to land, the agent, wearing a special padded suit, stepped off at very low altitude and rolled to a stop on the field. They were originally designed to carry one passenger in the rear cockpit, but for SOE use the rear cockpit was modified to carry two passengers in extreme discomfort in case of urgent necessity. The pilots of No. 138 and from early 1942, No. 161 Squadron transported 101 agents to and recovered 128 agents from Nazi-occupied Europe. The Germans knew little about the British aircraft and wished to study one. Soldiers captured an intact Lysander in March 1942 when its pilot was unable to destroy it after a crash, but a train hit the truck carrying the Lysander, destroying the cargo. Lysanders also filled other less glamorous roles, such as service as target-towing and communication aircraft. Two aircraft (T1443 and T1739) were transferred to the British Overseas Airways Corporation (BOAC) for training and 18 were used by the Royal Navy′s Fleet Air Arm. All British Lysanders were withdrawn from service in 1946. Free French
Lysander also joined the ranks of the Forces Aιriennes Franηaises Libres (Free French Air Force, FAFL) when Groupe Mixte de Combat (GMC) 1, formed at RAF Odiham on 29 August 1940, was sent to French North-West Africa in order to persuade the authorities in countries such as Gabon, Cameroon and Chad, which were still loyal to Vichy France, to join the Gaullist cause against the Axis powers, and to attack Italian ground forces in Libya. As with all FAFL aircraft, Lysanders sported the Cross of Lorraine insignia on the fuselage and the wings instead of the French tricolor roundel first used in 1914, to distinguish their aircraft from those flying for the Vichy French Air Force. Lysanders were mostly employed on reconnaissance missions, but were also used to carry out occasional attacks. In all, 24 Lysanders were used by the FAFL. Civilian use
After the war a number of surplus ex-Royal Canadian Air Force Lysanders were employed as aerial applicators with Westland Dusting Service, operating in Alberta and western Canada.[19] Two of these were saved for inclusion in Lynn Garrison's collection for display in Calgary, Alberta, Canada.
Specifications (Lysander Mk III)
Data from Westland Aircraft since 1915 General characteristics· Crew: One, pilot· Capacity: 1 passenger (or observer)· Length: 30 ft 6 in (9.29 m)· Wingspan: 50 ft 0 in (15.24 m)· Height: 14 ft 6 in (4.42 m)· Wing area: 260 ft² (24.2 m²)· Empty weight: 4,365 lb (1,984 kg)· Max. takeoff weight: 6,330 lb (2,877 kg)· Powerplant: 1 Χ Bristol Mercury XX radial engine, 870 hp (649 kW) Performance· Maximum speed: 212 mph (184 knots, 341 km/h) at 5,000 ft (1,520 m)· Range: 600 miles (522 nmi, 966 km)· Service ceiling: 21,500 ft (6,550 m)· Climb to 10,000 ft (3,050 m): 8 min· Take-off run to 50 ft (15 m): 305 yards (279 m) Armament· Guns: Two forward-firing .303 in (7.7 mm) Browning machine guns in wheel fairings and two more for the observer· Bombs: Four 20 lb (9 kg) bombs under rear fuselage and 500 lb (227 kg) of bombs on stub wings if fitted
What warbird do I describe?
1. This aircraft was designed, and came into service prior to WWII.
2. It was designed for one role, but ultimately became famous for another.
3. It was named for a famous military figure.
4. A military figure NOT involved with aircraft in any way.
5. All the major combatants in WWII seem to have had an aircraft with similar performance characteristics, and performing the same general duties, as our subject aircraft.
6. The chief designer used a rather unique approach. He spent a lot of time talking to the pilots who would be flying the aircraft; finding out what they thought was needed in a new aircraft.
7. Which is not to say that those who would be making the decisions were necessarily of the same opinion.
8. The opinions of the pilots seemed to indicate the most important requirements were field of view, low speed handling characteristics and the ability to take off and land in limited areas.
9. And that is what the designers set out to deliver.
10. The resulting aircraft, at first glance, would not seem to be the sort of aircraft to suit its intended role.
11. Despite a somewhat ungainly appearance, it was actually quite advanced from an aerodynamic standpoint.
12. It featured a variable incidence tailplane (i.e., a “flying tail”) slotted flaps and fully automatic wing slots.
13. These features allowed it to operate from improvised runways, which was important.
14. It was a lot larger, and a lot heavier, than most of the aircraft fielded by other countries to fill the intended role. On the other hand, it was a lot faster.
15. Its introduction to combat was not exactly a complete success. In simple terms, the units flying the plane were slaughtered.
16. Total loss rates for the planes committed to battle were upwards of 60%.
17. The plane was criticized as being too fast to do its primary job, and too slow to escape destruction if enemy aircraft caught it doing its job.
18. It was criticized as being (at the same time) too fast, too slow, too big, too heavy and totally unsuited for the two main roles it was intended to fulfill.
19. Other aircraft, very different from one another, were brought in as replacements. Essentially, the two main roles if was to fulfill were split among two different types. One role was now taken over by lighter and slower aircraft; and the other by heavier and faster aircraft.
20. Our subject aircraft was given a role in patrol and rescue work, but this was a minor and mainly temporary mission.
21. A new unit was formed to do very special operations, and they found our subject aircraft to be just what they needed.
Answer: RAF Lysander
The Westland Lysander (nickname the "Lizzie") is a British army co-operation and liaison aircraft produced by Westland Aircraft used immediately before and during the Second World War. After becoming obsolete in the army co-operation role, the aircraft's exceptional short-field performance enabled clandestine missions using small, improvised airstrips behind enemy lines to place or recover agents, particularly in occupied France with the help of the French Resistance. British Army air co-operation aircraft were named after mythical or historical military leaders; in this case the Spartan admiral Lysander was chosen.
Design and development
In 1934 the Air Ministry issued Specification A.39/34 for an army co-operation aircraft to replace the Hawker Hector. Initially Hawker Aircraft, Avro and Bristol were invited to submit designs, but after some debate within the Ministry, a submission from Westland was invited as well. The Westland design, internally designated P.8, was the work of Arthur Davenport under the direction of "Teddy" Petter. It was Petter's second aircraft design and he spent considerable time interviewing Royal Air Force pilots to find out what they wanted from such an aircraft. Less clear was whether he or the pilots understood the army co-operation role and what the army wanted, which was tactical reconnaissance and artillery reconnaissance capability – photographic reconnaissance and observation of artillery fire in daylight – up to about 15,000 yards (14 km) behind the enemy front. The result of Petter's pilot enquiries suggested that field of view, low-speed handling characteristics and STOL performance were the most important requirements. Davenport and Petter designed an aircraft to incorporate these features with unconventional results. The Lysander was powered by a Bristol Mercury air-cooled radial engine and had high wings and a fixed conventional landing gear mounted on an innovative inverted U square-section tube that supported wing struts at the apex, was in itself resilient, and contained (internal) springs for the faired wheels. The large streamlined spats also each contained a mounting for a Browning machine gun and for small, removable stub wings that could be used to carry light bombs or supply canisters. The wings had a reverse taper towards the root, which gave the impression of a bent gull wing from some angles, although the spars were straight. It had a girder type construction faired with a light wood stringers to give the aerodynamic shape. The forward fuselage was duralumin tube joined with brackets and plates, and the after part was welded stainless steel tubes. Plates and brackets were cut from channel extrusions rather than being formed from sheet steel. The front spar and lift struts were extrusions. The wing itself was fabric covered, and its thickness was maximized at the lift strut anchorage location, similar to that of later marks of the Stinson Reliant high-winged transport monoplane. Despite its appearance, the Lysander was aerodynamically advanced; being equipped with fully automatic wing slots and slotted flaps and a variable incidence tailplane. These refinements gave the Lysander a stalling speed of only 65 mph (104 km/h, 56.5 knots). It also featured the largest Elektron alloy extrusion made at the time: the one-piece frame already mentioned that supporting the wings and wheels. (This was a feature of British-built aircraft only – Canadian-built machines had a conventionally fabricated assembly due to the difficulties involved in manufacturing such a large extrusion.) The Air Ministry requested two prototypes of the P.8 and the competing Bristol Type 148, quickly selecting the Westland aircraft for production and issuing a contract in September 1936.
Operational history
United KingdomThe first Lysanders entered service in June 1938, equipping squadrons for army co-operation and were initially used for message-dropping and artillery spotting. When war broke out in Europe, the earlier Mk Is had been largely replaced by Mk IIs, the older machines heading for the Middle East. Some of these aircraft, now designated type L.1, operated with the Chindits of the British Indian Army in the Burma Campaign of the Second World War.
Four regular squadrons equipped with Lysanders accompanied the British Expeditionary Force to France in October 1939, and were joined by a further squadron early in 1940. Following the German invasion of France and the low countries on 10 May 1940, Lysanders were put into action as spotters and light bombers. In spite of occasional victories against German aircraft, they made very easy targets for the Luftwaffe even when escorted by Hurricanes. Withdrawn from France during the Dunkirk evacuation, they continued to fly supply-dropping missions to Allied forces from bases in England; on one mission to drop supplies to troops trapped at Calais, 14 of 16 Lysanders and Hawker Hectors that set out were lost. 118 Lysanders were lost in or over France and Belgium in May and June 1940, of a total of 175 deployed. With the fall of France, it was clear that the type was unsuitable for the coastal patrol and army co-operation role, being described by Air Marshal Arthur Barratt, commander-in-chief of the British Air Forces in France as "quite unsuited to the task; a faster, less vulnerable aircraft was required. The view of Army AOP pilots was that the Lysander was too fast for artillery spotting purposes, too slow and unmanoeuverable to avoid fighters, too big to conceal quickly on a landing field, too heavy to use on soft ground and had been developed by the RAF without ever asking the Army what was needed. Nevertheless, throughout the remainder of 1940, Lysanders flew dawn and dusk patrols off the coast and in the event of an invasion of Britain, they were tasked with attacking the landing beaches with light bombs and machine guns.
They were replaced in the home-based army co-operation role from 1941 by camera-equipped fighters such as the Curtiss Tomahawk and North American Mustang carrying out reconnaissance operations, while light aircraft such as the Taylorcraft Auster were used to direct artillery. Some UK-based Lysanders went to work operating air-sea rescue, dropping dinghies to downed RAF aircrew in the English Channel. Fourteen squadrons and flights were formed for this role in 1940 and 1941.
Special duties
In August 1941 a new squadron, No. 138 (Special Duties), was formed to undertake missions for the Special Operations Executive to maintain clandestine contact with the French Resistance. Among its aircraft were Lysander Mk IIIs, which flew over and landed in occupied France. While general supply drops could be left to the rest of No. 138's aircraft, the Lysander could insert and remove agents from the continent or retrieve Allied aircrew who had been shot down over occupied territory and had evaded capture. For this role the Mk IIIs were fitted with a fixed ladder over the port side to hasten access to the rear cockpit and a large drop tank under the belly. In order to slip in unobtrusively Lysanders were painted matte black (some early examples had brown/green camouflaged upper surfaces and later examples had grey/green upper surfaces); operations almost always took place within a week of a full moon, as moonlight was essential for navigation. The aircraft undertook such duties until the liberation of France in 1944. Lysanders flew from secret airfields at Newmarket and later Tempsford, but used regular RAF stations to fuel-up for the actual crossing, particularly RAF Tangmere. Flying without any navigation equipment other than a map and compass, Lysanders would land on short strips of land, such as fields, marked out by four or five torches. Or to avoid having to land, the agent, wearing a special padded suit, stepped off at very low altitude and rolled to a stop on the field. They were originally designed to carry one passenger in the rear cockpit, but for SOE use the rear cockpit was modified to carry two passengers in extreme discomfort in case of urgent necessity. The pilots of No. 138 and from early 1942, No. 161 Squadron transported 101 agents to and recovered 128 agents from Nazi-occupied Europe. The Germans knew little about the British aircraft and wished to study one. Soldiers captured an intact Lysander in March 1942 when its pilot was unable to destroy it after a crash, but a train hit the truck carrying the Lysander, destroying the cargo. Lysanders also filled other less glamorous roles, such as service as target-towing and communication aircraft. Two aircraft (T1443 and T1739) were transferred to the British Overseas Airways Corporation (BOAC) for training and 18 were used by the Royal Navy′s Fleet Air Arm. All British Lysanders were withdrawn from service in 1946. Free French
Lysander also joined the ranks of the Forces Aιriennes Franηaises Libres (Free French Air Force, FAFL) when Groupe Mixte de Combat (GMC) 1, formed at RAF Odiham on 29 August 1940, was sent to French North-West Africa in order to persuade the authorities in countries such as Gabon, Cameroon and Chad, which were still loyal to Vichy France, to join the Gaullist cause against the Axis powers, and to attack Italian ground forces in Libya. As with all FAFL aircraft, Lysanders sported the Cross of Lorraine insignia on the fuselage and the wings instead of the French tricolor roundel first used in 1914, to distinguish their aircraft from those flying for the Vichy French Air Force. Lysanders were mostly employed on reconnaissance missions, but were also used to carry out occasional attacks. In all, 24 Lysanders were used by the FAFL. Civilian use
After the war a number of surplus ex-Royal Canadian Air Force Lysanders were employed as aerial applicators with Westland Dusting Service, operating in Alberta and western Canada.[19] Two of these were saved for inclusion in Lynn Garrison's collection for display in Calgary, Alberta, Canada.
Production
A total of 1,786 Lysanders were built, including 225 manufactured under licence by National Steel Car in Toronto, Ontario, Canada during the late 1930s. Specifications (Lysander Mk III)
Data from Westland Aircraft since 1915 General characteristics· Crew: One, pilot· Capacity: 1 passenger (or observer)· Length: 30 ft 6 in (9.29 m)· Wingspan: 50 ft 0 in (15.24 m)· Height: 14 ft 6 in (4.42 m)· Wing area: 260 ft² (24.2 m²)· Empty weight: 4,365 lb (1,984 kg)· Max. takeoff weight: 6,330 lb (2,877 kg)· Powerplant: 1 Χ Bristol Mercury XX radial engine, 870 hp (649 kW) Performance· Maximum speed: 212 mph (184 knots, 341 km/h) at 5,000 ft (1,520 m)· Range: 600 miles (522 nmi, 966 km)· Service ceiling: 21,500 ft (6,550 m)· Climb to 10,000 ft (3,050 m): 8 min· Take-off run to 50 ft (15 m): 305 yards (279 m) Armament· Guns: Two forward-firing .303 in (7.7 mm) Browning machine guns in wheel fairings and two more for the observer· Bombs: Four 20 lb (9 kg) bombs under rear fuselage and 500 lb (227 kg) of bombs on stub wings if fitted
08-08-2018, 01:42 PM
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Richard Cole, 100, on June 23, 2016. Cole is the last living veteran of the Doolittle Raid in 1942 after David Thatcher, 94, passed away on June 22, 2016.
08-08-2018, 04:24 PM
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Sorry thought I'd posted a response...Great guess Ernie but not the man I'm looking for same plane(s) though so updated clue.
I'm looking for an aircrew member
1. The aircraft he few in was the B-25.
I'm looking for an aircrew member
1. The aircraft he few in was the B-25.
08-08-2018, 04:31 PM
08-08-2018, 06:00 PM
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Ernie already suggested Richard Cole which lead to me updating Clue #1! So here's the second clue
I'm looking for an aircrew member
1. The aircraft he few in was the B-25.
2. He flew many missions.
I'm looking for an aircrew member
1. The aircraft he few in was the B-25.
2. He flew many missions.
08-08-2018, 06:29 PM
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Not many people have heard of Victor Tatelman, who earned numerous Air Medals, two distinguished Flying Crosses and a Purple Heart in nearly 120 combat missions piloting Mitchell bombers. Tatelman got his Army Air Forces pilot wings in June 1942 as a member of class 42F at West Coast Training Command, in Stockton, Calif. As a new second lieutenant, he and several others of his class were sent to Williams Field, at Chandler, Ariz., to fly bombardier cadets in Beechcraft AT-11s. On each flight he carried five bombardier cadets, who each got to drop a practice bomb on a target. Within six months he had become bored with that duty and asked for a combat assignment — unconcerned that reassignment might cost him his seniority.
In November 1942 Tatelman was sent to Columbia Army Air Field at Columbia, S.C., where a new bomb group was being organized. There, the pilots were assigned to the 498th, 499th, 500th and 501st squadrons, which were to make up the 345th Bomb Group. At the 345th Group, assigning pilots to squadrons was a simple matter: The pilots were gathered in a room with four large tables and told to divide themselves equally among the four tables. Then each table was assigned a squadron number. The table Tatelman chose became the 499th Squadron.
Tatelman, now a captain flying his 51st mission, led the flight assigned to drop white phosphorus bombs on Dumun to provide the smoke screen. Taking off before dawn, he led his flight through instrument weather for an hour, finally reaching better weather just opposite Yalau beach. Since he was five minutes early, he decided to dive under the low overcast to the southwest and strafe the village. He figured that he could do so safely by turning north, away from the mountains, as he turned off the target. He distracted the Japanese troops at Dumun with his strafing passes until 0725, when (according to the citation in his Distinguished Flying Cross award): ‘He very accurately placed his bombs on the village to totally obliterate any view by the enemy of the landing party at Yalau Plantation, two miles away. His bombs set fire to the village which was totally destroyed and ground forces later reported that enemy casualties from this bombing and strafing were high; the remainder of the enemy force had fled the area.’
That mission nominally completed Tatelman’s tour of duty. Because of his college engineering background, however, he was selected for a special mission. He was given a .45-caliber pistol, a briefcase was chained to his wrist, and he became a courier. He was told to report to a certain room number at the Pentagon in a week’s time. When he did so, he found himself involved in an intensive three-month training session on radar and radar countermeasures at such places as Wright Field, Massachusetts Institute of Technology, IBM and installations at Boca Raton and Orlando, Fla. A major U.S. concern was whether the Wurtzburg radar, developed in Germany for ranging anti-aircraft artillery, had been shared with the Japanese. An increase in the accuracy of Japanese anti-aircraft fire would clearly have been an unwelcome development in the Pacific theater at that juncture, and American authorities hoped to take steps to counteract it. Tatelman learned about chaff, rope, window and electronic countermeasures jamming that would be available in the Pacific if needed. He also learned how to tell what countermeasures would likely be required in a given situation.
Returning to the Pacific, Tatelman became a member of MacArthur’s Section 22 (Intelligence), now stationed in the Philippines. His job was to attend heavy bomber briefings and to brief airmen on countermeasures against radar-operated anti-aircraft emplacements. The captain soon learned that the bomber crews were not too concerned about the accuracy of AAA. What really did bother them was that the Japanese always seemed to know they were coming. The enemy could no longer be taken by surprise, it seemed. The Japanese appeared to have developed an early warning radar capability.
Remembering that Bell Labs had shown him equipment for homing on radar, Captain Tatelman proposed to his bosses that he obtain that equipment, then go after the early warning radar and destroy it. His proposal was approved, and Tatelman had it installed in a B-25D, which was configured in such a way that the homer could be conveniently placed in the now single-pilot cockpit. Within two weeks the aircraft was given a complete overhaul at Biak and outfitted with two new engines, an eight-gun nose, rocket launchers on the wings and a new name — Dirty Dora II.
The civilian expert who had installed the homing equipment in Dirty Dora II flew with Tatelman a few times to adjust the equipment and check out how well it was operating. The expert became so interested in the project that he volunteered to fly as the equipment operator in actual search operations during combat. That arrangement worked out so well that he continued to fly with Tatelman on subsequent missions.
As a practical matter, Tatelman got himself, his crew and Dirty Dora II assigned temporary duty with the 499th Bats Outa Hell for rations, quarters and aircraft maintenance, to which he did not have access as a member of MacArthur’s Section 22. His target areas were assigned through Bomber Command, generally in areas where B-24 crews had reported their suspicions that the Japanese were waiting for them, a giveaway that they had had an early warning. Tatelman would fly out to the area indicated and search for radar signals. If he discovered any, he followed them to their source, where he bombed, strafed and fired rockets at the transmitter. During 20 missions operating out of Clark Field, he and his crew destroyed eight radars, and after the first few they even brought back photographs of their attacks.
Tatelman earned a second DFC for proposing and carrying out the radar destruction missions, as well as a Purple Heart for a leg wound he suffered while overflying an enemy-held island north of Luzon. After that mission he recalled hearing a ‘pop’ and seeing a hole open up in the right wall of the cockpit. Later, when he reached into the knee pocket of his flying suit for a cigarette, he found the pocket full of blood. Whatever had made the hole in the cockpit wall had also grazed his knee — fortunately, without doing any severe damage. On one of those early radar-busting missions, a ground control unit in northern Luzon asked for help in taking out a tank that was holding up the infantry advance. They located the tank behind a barn, and Tatelman circled the tank while a waist gunner raked it with his .50-caliber machine gun, setting it on fire and putting it out of the fight. Using the waist gun saved nose gun ammunition for later use on a radar station. Tatelman got a commendation from the ground commander for that action.
By early 1945, the Allies had achieved complete air superiority in the Pacific, and the 499th was bombing Japan itself. Tatelman got himself transferred back to the 499th and served for the rest of the war as a flight leader. By the cease-fire on August 15, 1945, he had racked up 119 combat missions. Clearly, he was not only an aggressive pilot, but also a lucky one.
Last edited by Ernie P.; 08-08-2018 at 06:34 PM.
08-09-2018, 10:58 AM
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Another great answer Ernie and an incredible record! the man I'm looking for flew less missions but a credible tally nevertheless.
I'm looking for an aircrew member
1. The aircraft he few in was the B-25.
2. He flew many missions (60).
3. He flew in the Mediterranean theater of operations
I'm looking for an aircrew member
1. The aircraft he few in was the B-25.
2. He flew many missions (60).
3. He flew in the Mediterranean theater of operations
08-09-2018, 03:20 PM
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Another great answer Ernie and an incredible record! the man I'm looking for flew less missions but a credible tally nevertheless.
I'm looking for an aircrew member
1. The aircraft he few in was the B-25.
2. He flew many missions (60).
3. He flew in the Mediterranean theater of operations
I'm looking for an aircrew member
1. The aircraft he few in was the B-25.
2. He flew many missions (60).
3. He flew in the Mediterranean theater of operations
Answer: Norris Olson
At the Museum of Aviation near Warner Robins, Georgia, a recent visitor turned out to have quite a connection to the North American B-25 Mitchell bomber on display. He was its tail gunner. Well, not precisely. Norris Olson flew 70 combat missions as a tail gunner, some on the B-25 Mitchell bomber nicknamed “The Little King” (serial number 43-27676) during World War II. The museum’s B-25, serial number 44-86872, is marked to appear as “The Little King.” So while the plane is indeed more or less the spitting image of Olsen’s craft, initials he might have scratched in the interior are not likely to have been reproduced.
08-09-2018, 03:22 PM
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Well I enjoy them all and it keeps the clues flowing
I'm looking for an aircrew member
1. The aircraft he few in was the B-25.
2. He flew many missions (60).
3. He flew in the Mediterranean theater of operations
4. Many of the missions were to inhibit redeployment of German troops to and from Italy.
I'm looking for an aircrew member
1. The aircraft he few in was the B-25.
2. He flew many missions (60).
3. He flew in the Mediterranean theater of operations
4. Many of the missions were to inhibit redeployment of German troops to and from Italy.
08-09-2018, 03:38 PM
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My Feedback: (3)
Well I enjoy them all and it keeps the clues flowing
I'm looking for an aircrew member
1. The aircraft he few in was the B-25.
2. He flew many missions (60).
3. He flew in the Mediterranean theater of operations
4. Many of the missions were to inhibit redeployment of German troops to and from Italy.
I'm looking for an aircrew member
1. The aircraft he few in was the B-25.
2. He flew many missions (60).
3. He flew in the Mediterranean theater of operations
4. Many of the missions were to inhibit redeployment of German troops to and from Italy.
08-09-2018, 07:02 PM
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I'm looking for an aircrew member
1. The aircraft he few in was the B-25.
2. He flew many missions (60).
3. He flew in the Mediterranean theater of operations
4. Many of the missions were to inhibit redeployment of German troops to and from Italy.
5. Railways and bridges being key targets and it was on a bridge mission that something happened that played a significant role in his later life.
1. The aircraft he few in was the B-25.
2. He flew many missions (60).
3. He flew in the Mediterranean theater of operations
4. Many of the missions were to inhibit redeployment of German troops to and from Italy.
5. Railways and bridges being key targets and it was on a bridge mission that something happened that played a significant role in his later life.
08-09-2018, 08:29 PM
Senior Member
My Feedback: (3)
I'm looking for an aircrew member
1. The aircraft he few in was the B-25.
2. He flew many missions (60).
3. He flew in the Mediterranean theater of operations
4. Many of the missions were to inhibit redeployment of German troops to and from Italy.
5. Railways and bridges being key targets and it was on a bridge mission that something happened that played a significant role in his later life.
1. The aircraft he few in was the B-25.
2. He flew many missions (60).
3. He flew in the Mediterranean theater of operations
4. Many of the missions were to inhibit redeployment of German troops to and from Italy.
5. Railways and bridges being key targets and it was on a bridge mission that something happened that played a significant role in his later life.
08-10-2018, 09:44 AM
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I'm looking for an aircrew member
1. The aircraft he few in was the B-25.
2. He flew many missions (60).
3. He flew in the Mediterranean theater of operations
4. Many of the missions were to inhibit redeployment of German troops to and from Italy.
5. Railways and bridges being key targets and it was on a bridge mission that something happened that played a significant role in his later life.
6. He was a bombardier.
1. The aircraft he few in was the B-25.
2. He flew many missions (60).
3. He flew in the Mediterranean theater of operations
4. Many of the missions were to inhibit redeployment of German troops to and from Italy.
5. Railways and bridges being key targets and it was on a bridge mission that something happened that played a significant role in his later life.
6. He was a bombardier.
08-10-2018, 11:41 AM
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Bonus clue, sort of...
I'm looking for an aircrew member
1. The aircraft he few in was the B-25.
2. He flew many missions (60).
3. He flew in the Mediterranean theater of operations
4. Many of the missions were to inhibit redeployment of German troops to and from Italy.
5. Railways and bridges being key targets and it was on a bridge mission that something happened that played a significant role in his later life.
6. He was a bombardier.
7. I just realized there is a second clue in #5
I'm looking for an aircrew member
1. The aircraft he few in was the B-25.
2. He flew many missions (60).
3. He flew in the Mediterranean theater of operations
4. Many of the missions were to inhibit redeployment of German troops to and from Italy.
5. Railways and bridges being key targets and it was on a bridge mission that something happened that played a significant role in his later life.
6. He was a bombardier.
7. I just realized there is a second clue in #5
08-10-2018, 02:35 PM
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I'm looking for an aircrew member
1. The aircraft he few in was the B-25.
2. He flew many missions (60).
3. He flew in the Mediterranean theater of operations
4. Many of the missions were to inhibit redeployment of German troops to and from Italy.
5. Railways and bridges being key targets and it was on a bridge mission that something happened that played a significant role in his later life.
6. He was a bombardier.
7. I just realized there is a second clue in #5
8. The incident referred to in #5 involved the co-pilot losing his nerve, grabbing the controls and plunging the aircraft out of control.
1. The aircraft he few in was the B-25.
2. He flew many missions (60).
3. He flew in the Mediterranean theater of operations
4. Many of the missions were to inhibit redeployment of German troops to and from Italy.
5. Railways and bridges being key targets and it was on a bridge mission that something happened that played a significant role in his later life.
6. He was a bombardier.
7. I just realized there is a second clue in #5
8. The incident referred to in #5 involved the co-pilot losing his nerve, grabbing the controls and plunging the aircraft out of control.
08-11-2018, 12:18 PM
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No guesses this will give it away...
I'm looking for an aircrew member
1. The aircraft he few in was the B-25.
2. He flew many missions (60).
3. He flew in the Mediterranean theater of operations
4. Many of the missions were to inhibit redeployment of German troops to and from Italy.
5. Railways and bridges being key targets and it was on a bridge mission that something happened that played a significant role in his later life.
6. He was a bombardier.
7. I just realized there is a second clue in #5
8. The incident referred to in #5 involved the co-pilot losing his nerve, grabbing the controls and plunging the aircraft out of control.
9. The terrifying experience was the recurring theme in a book he wrote years later.
I'm looking for an aircrew member
1. The aircraft he few in was the B-25.
2. He flew many missions (60).
3. He flew in the Mediterranean theater of operations
4. Many of the missions were to inhibit redeployment of German troops to and from Italy.
5. Railways and bridges being key targets and it was on a bridge mission that something happened that played a significant role in his later life.
6. He was a bombardier.
7. I just realized there is a second clue in #5
8. The incident referred to in #5 involved the co-pilot losing his nerve, grabbing the controls and plunging the aircraft out of control.
9. The terrifying experience was the recurring theme in a book he wrote years later.
08-12-2018, 11:02 AM
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guess there's not a lot of people around this weekend?
I'm looking for an aircrew member
1. The aircraft he few in was the B-25.
2. He flew many missions (60).
3. He flew in the Mediterranean theater of operations
4. Many of the missions were to inhibit redeployment of German troops to and from Italy.
5. Railways and bridges being key targets and it was on a bridge mission that something happened that played a significant role in his later life.
6. He was a bombardier.
7. I just realized there is a second clue in #5
8. The incident referred to in #5 involved the co-pilot losing his nerve, grabbing the controls and plunging the aircraft out of control.
9. The terrifying experience was the recurring theme in a book he wrote years later.
10. The other theme of the book centered around a 'catch'
1. The aircraft he few in was the B-25.
2. He flew many missions (60).
3. He flew in the Mediterranean theater of operations
4. Many of the missions were to inhibit redeployment of German troops to and from Italy.
5. Railways and bridges being key targets and it was on a bridge mission that something happened that played a significant role in his later life.
6. He was a bombardier.
7. I just realized there is a second clue in #5
8. The incident referred to in #5 involved the co-pilot losing his nerve, grabbing the controls and plunging the aircraft out of control.
9. The terrifying experience was the recurring theme in a book he wrote years later.
10. The other theme of the book centered around a 'catch'
08-13-2018, 09:51 AM
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Well his alter-ego Joseph Heller who wrote 'Catch-22', but that's good enough for me. Though he denied it many of the action scene were taken from his wartime experiences especially the one described above. "Something Happened' was his second of several books none of which achieved the success or acclaim of Catch-22.
You're up JohnnyS
You're up JohnnyS
Last edited by SimonCraig1; 08-13-2018 at 11:19 AM.
08-13-2018, 12:54 PM
I always loved Catch-22.
New quiz: OK, here goes:
1. 150 were ordered but the orders were cancelled after only a few were built. 2 were prototypes and the remainder were production aircraft.
2. It was originally intended to be an evolutionary update to an iconic aircraft, but as time went on the number of changes became so substantial the designers decided to change the name. Strangely though, the "mark" number was carried over from the previous aircraft even though the name was changed.
New quiz: OK, here goes:
1. 150 were ordered but the orders were cancelled after only a few were built. 2 were prototypes and the remainder were production aircraft.
2. It was originally intended to be an evolutionary update to an iconic aircraft, but as time went on the number of changes became so substantial the designers decided to change the name. Strangely though, the "mark" number was carried over from the previous aircraft even though the name was changed.