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-   -   COMP ARF 110" F4U ARF WITH FOLDING WING ASSEMBLY (https://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/rc-warbirds-warplanes-200/8096976-comp-arf-110%22-f4u-arf-folding-wing-assembly.html)

NCIS 02-08-2009 01:49 PM

RE: COMP ARF 110" F4U ARF WITH FOLDING WING ASSEMBLY
 
1 Attachment(s)
Sam,

That looks about the same as mine as far as where it is in the wheel well. Take a look. I was going to use the 1/8" former to hold it but with some of my TW landings I decided on 1/4" instead. Remember when you put on your gear doors that with there curve the whell will be less obvious also. I think it looks good where it is.

Barry

Ken-h 02-08-2009 01:53 PM

RE: COMP ARF 110" F4U ARF WITH FOLDING WING ASSEMBLY
 
Paul,

What size standoffs did you end up going with on your Moki?

Thanks,
Ken

samparfitt 02-08-2009 04:34 PM

RE: COMP ARF 110" F4U ARF WITH FOLDING WING ASSEMBLY
 
1 Attachment(s)
Barry,
When I put the, presently, one piece curved CF doors over the door hole, the doors fit after I used the piece of wire to compress the oleo by about 1/4".

=================

tail gear/feathers (cont)

Stab/elevator.

pic 1:
Here's the elevator hinges and brass rod that comes with the kit.
As with the ailerons, a #20 drill bit was needed to enlarge the hinge holes for the brass rod.
As with the ailerons, use the exact size drill bit as you don't want any slop in the hinges which could cause elevator flutter.

pic 2:
The brass rod in the pre-built hole on the inside edge of the elevator.

pic 3:
The elevator has hidden slots along the LE spar for each hinge. The brass rod slides along the center of this spar and holds the hinges in place while also allowing the hinges to move up and down.
The LE of the elevator has some recesses that, initially, look like the location to cut out to get to the slots for the hinges.
Only the center recess is close (off by 1/16" ).
The three pre-cut slots in the stab for the hinges are located (measured from the inside edge of the elevator counter weight):
outside hinge is 1 7/16".
center hinge is 8 1/16"
inside hinge is 14 11/16".
As you can see in the picture, I had to drill several holes to find the outside slot.

pic 4:
The orientation of the elevator to the stab.
I used a razor saw to initially cut the slot in the LE of the elevator.
I then used some small files to enlarge this slot.
The pre-cut slots in the spar also needed to be enlarged with a file so the hinges would fit.
One slot had a glob of glue in it and I used a 1/16" drill bit in a dremel to clean out the glue.
In this picture you can easily see that recess on the far right of the elevator that 'appears' to be where the hinge slots are.


NCIS 02-08-2009 07:30 PM

RE: COMP ARF 110" F4U ARF WITH FOLDING WING ASSEMBLY
 
Sam,

Thats a nifty hinge setup. I wonder if I could incorporate that idea into mine. There a much better hinge than Robart's large hinge points.

Barry

samparfitt 02-08-2009 08:14 PM

RE: COMP ARF 110" F4U ARF WITH FOLDING WING ASSEMBLY
 
1 Attachment(s)
Barry,
It may be a lot of work since the spar has aluminum tubing on each side of the slot where the hinge is. A hole about 14" has to be drilled through the center of the spar. Maybe a 1/32" thick ply, cut/glue the thicker spar to the ply after putting the re-enforcement tubing in, then put the main tubing all the way through and then glue everything to the alignment ply.
See below for how I found that there is aluminum tubing for support.

======================
tail/gear feathers (cont)

Stab/elevator (cont)

pic 1:
After using a razor saw to cut the outer surface, the inner spar with the original slot can be seen before I enlarged it for the hinge.

pic 2:
A piece of the re-enforcement aluminum tubing fell out (which I didn't know was in there!).

pic 3:
I was going to try to glue the original piece of aluminum tubing but it was too small to work with, so I got a longer piece of brass tubing, slid it over the 14" long original brass tubing for alignment purposes, put some epoxy on the end of the new piece of brass tubing and slid it into the hole next to the hinge slot. Fortunately, this was the piece that was close to the inside edge of the elevator.
The original tubing fell out because, as with the other elevator, there was some glue dried in the slot and when I cleaned it out, I also knocked out the tubing.
I left some of the new tubing stick out the end and cut it off after the epoxy dried.

pic 4:
Since the stab support tubing runs along the back, the inner hinge needs to be shorter by about a 1/2".

pic 5:
Since the stab spare is only balsa, an x-acto blade easily cuts the slots for the hinges with some tune up with a small file.

pic 6:
Hinges connected to the elevator with the brass tubing.

pic 7:
Dry fit the elevator and stab.

pic 8/9:
I'll need to file the slot on the surface a little longer to give me a little more 'down'.

NOTE:
One important point is that I will be using two CF tubings and will be using two elevator servos: If you are going to use just one elevator servo (thus only one long piece of CF tubing), you will need to wait to epoxy the elevator hinge into the stab as the last step so there will be no binding on the CF tubing going from one elevator to the other elevator.



samparfitt 02-09-2009 12:21 AM

RE: COMP ARF 110" F4U ARF WITH FOLDING WING ASSEMBLY
 
1 Attachment(s)
Gear/tail feathers (cont)

Rudder:

pic 1:
The same shape hinge is used at the top of the rudder as is used on the elevators.
The rudder is like the elevator where a brass tubing is pushed into the LE of the rudder.
The brass tubing is too short so I soldered an outer, slightly larger tubing onto the original tubing.
The outer tubing creates a 'stop' and also a means of pulling out the original brass tubing for maintenance purposes.

pic 2:
I cut a slot into the outer skin even with the inside corner of the rudder.
On this rudder, the slot was about a 1/16" too high so I had to file away the wood and internal aluminum tubing so the hinge could slide into the slot.

pic 3:
dry fit of hinge and brass tubing.


samparfitt 02-09-2009 01:38 AM

RE: COMP ARF 110" F4U ARF WITH FOLDING WING ASSEMBLY
 
1 Attachment(s)
tail gear/feathers (cont)

rudder (cont)

pic 1:
I cut a piece of hollow CF tubing that fits into the bottom of the rudder hole, drilled a perpendicular hole through both the CF and brass tubing. I then put the kit provided wire into both tubings. The wire looks like copper but it is copper clad steel wire.

pic 2:
I cut the bottom of the surface of the rudder and put the CF/brass tubing into the rudder.

pic 3:
I then epoxied two 1/8" thick plys to each side of the wire.
This makes the CF/brass tubing removable yet will allow us to move the rudder.
(I forgot that I'm going to have to put a short piece of brass tubing where the steel wire intersects the CF so keep it from cracking).

rcpete2 02-09-2009 05:24 AM

RE: COMP ARF 110" F4U ARF WITH FOLDING WING ASSEMBLY
 
I also need some info on size of standoffs on a moki? I cant find anything. thanks

samparfitt 02-09-2009 08:13 AM

RE: COMP ARF 110" F4U ARF WITH FOLDING WING ASSEMBLY
 
Radial dimensions:
http://www.rcshowcase.com/images/eng...ns/radials.jpg

didiwatt 02-09-2009 08:26 AM

RE: COMP ARF 110" F4U ARF WITH FOLDING WING ASSEMBLY
 


ORIGINAL: Ken-h

Paul,

What size standoffs did you end up going with on your Moki?

Thanks,
Ken
I used 1" SWB standoff's. They come with multiple washers. I used 2 of the thinnest washers for the right thrust.

Sam:
My carbon fiber dowel for the rudder is solid so my rudder copper tube had to be capped and made removable using a thin wire. Also, my rudder turn rod was much heavier. Is your 10mm elevator c/f dowel hollow also?

Paul

Ken-h 02-09-2009 08:46 AM

RE: COMP ARF 110" F4U ARF WITH FOLDING WING ASSEMBLY
 

ORIGINAL: didiwatt



ORIGINAL: Ken-h

Paul,

What size standoffs did you end up going with on your Moki?

Thanks,
Ken
I used 1" SWB standoff's. They come with multiple washers. I used 2 of the thinnest washers for the right thrust.

Sam:
My carbon fiber dowel for the rudder is solid so my rudder copper tube had to be capped and made removable using a thin wire. Also, my rudder turn rod was much heavier. Is your 10mm elevator c/f dowel hollow also?

Paul

Thanks Paul! On another note, the CF dowels for both on mine are solid.

Ken

samparfitt 02-09-2009 09:35 AM

RE: COMP ARF 110" F4U ARF WITH FOLDING WING ASSEMBLY
 
Paul,
The rudder hardware package was not in my kit so I'm making this partly from my 'scrap' box.
How do you store the wire and get access to it with the solid CF rod?
I have the elevator/stab hardware package and it has the solid CF rod.
Last night, I emailed comparf on the missing hardware.
Without that ball bearing collar, I'll have to wait on any final assembly of the rudder.
Looking at the picture, I do see the perpendicular wire being larger than the one I used.
I saw the wire in the kit and assumed it was for this purpose.
I didn't have any of those 1" square 1/8" thick plys in my kit which it appears that the ball bearing collars are glued to.
No big deal on making some up.
I guess if comparf doesn't have any spare rudder hardware packages, I could use a brass tubing as a collar and epoxy it too the 1" square ply.
It just occurred to me that I can't assembly the rudder to the vertical fin having the brass tubing attached to the larger CF tubing.
I don't see how the kit version can work either.
The lower CF tubing assembly has to be inserted into the bottom of the rudder (or fuse), the rudder is then placed on top and the brass tubing has to be inserted from the bottom: which, as I see it, is impossible!
Also, it seems like a small screw is going to have be drilled/screwed into the side of the rudder and into the CF tubing to keep the rudder from lifting up off the CF tubing assembly.
Unless I'm missing something, obvious, I don't see how this is going to work!
With a solid CF rod at the bottom, I'm wondering if I can take a 1/8"X12" drill bit from HD and drill all the way through the top of the rudder, starting from the bottom for alignment: I could then push the brass tubing in from the top with a piece of small brass wire solder at the top at an angle and secure it with a small screw. Not too prototype but I don't think it would be very noticeable.
After the top assembly is together, then the threaded rod has to be put in the CF rod at the bottom from inside the fuse and then the servo connecting rods are attached.
=============

EUREKA!

I just noticed in the manual that the top hinge on the rudder is screwed to the vertical fin.
The rudder can be moved 30 degrees to the side in order to attach the bolts that hold the hinge to the vertical fin.
(After just doing the elevator hinges, I assumed the top rudder hinge is also epoxied to the vertical fin).
This would allow the entire rudder assembly to remain 'intact' and would solve all the above problems.
One minor detail is they say to recess the bolt heads into the hinge. That hinge isn't thick enough to have recesses; and if the bolt heads stick out, some rather large slots would have to be cut out of the rudder.
I've got some #6 button head screws: these are pretty low profile and will probably work better than the hex head bolts that are suggested in the manual.
With this procedure, the brass tubing would never have to be removed anyway for any maintenance (the only exception would be a broken upper hinge).
A screw would still have to be drilled/screwed into the rudder and CF rod to keep them together.

The stab/elevator hardware package also has two 1/8" thick by about 3/4"X3" pieces of aluminum plate with three holes in each of them which I have no idea what they are for!

I was just looking at the rudder and I can put a screw in from the bottom of the rudder to hold that perpendicular wire to the rudder which will eliminate the screw in the side of the rudder.

samparfitt 02-09-2009 12:59 PM

RE: COMP ARF 110" F4U ARF WITH FOLDING WING ASSEMBLY
 
1 Attachment(s)
Tail gear/feathers (cont)

Rudder (cont)

pic 1:
Rudder and vertical fin assembly.

pic 2:
A slot mirroring the hinge cut into the top of the vertical fin.

pic 3/4:
The hinge was secured to two 1/8" thick pieces of ply (in kit) with some #6X32 button heads and blind nuts.
The top side of the hinge was recessed by about 1/32" for the button heads with a forstner bit.
A small piece of 1/8" thick ply was cut/trimmed to fit behind the hinge so this assembly will lay flat along the top of the fin.

pic 5/6:
Some original balsa and glue was first removed before the top hinge assembly was epoxied to the fin.

pic 7:
dry fit.

samparfitt 02-09-2009 09:59 PM

RE: COMP ARF 110" F4U ARF WITH FOLDING WING ASSEMBLY
 
1 Attachment(s)
Tail gear/feathers (cont)

Elevator/stab (cont)

pic 1:
I found out that I can't have the elevator hinge brass tubing flush to the surface but rather, it has to be recessed in the elevator.
I was checking out where the elevator 'control horns' are located and they are exactly where the brass tubing is.
A 1/16" drill bit in a dremel works well for removing the surface material (like a trim router on drywall around an outlet) and I found that there is a CF tube under the surface that is a few inches long (just before the first hinge).

pic 2:
The brass tubing that is used to attach the elevator to the stab has to be recessed so I soldered on a thin loop of brass wire.
I can now push the brass tubing all the way to the end of the CF tubing and use a wire hook to pull the brass tubing back out.
I'll now have enough room for the 'control horn'.

pic 3:
I drilled eight small holes in each hinge to give the epoxy something to hold onto as I epoxied the hinges into the stab.
I first put the hinges into the elevator with the brass tubing to insure the hinges are aligned.

pic 4:
Some epoxy with micro-balls were used to insure most of the epoxy stays around the hinges.

=========
Vertical fin/rudder (cont)

pic 5/6:
I epoxied some 1/8" thick ply to the inside bottom the the vertical fin and drill a lot of 3/32" holes in bottom of the vertical fin and also the fuse where the two meet.

pic 7:
Not only will the holes make small rivets to allow the epoxy to hold better but I'll also be putting several screws into the fin from the inside of the fuse: I feel this is needed when there's that much rudder for such a small vertical fin. I don't want any flexing of that fin.


didiwatt 02-10-2009 08:38 AM

RE: COMP ARF 110" F4U ARF WITH FOLDING WING ASSEMBLY
 


ORIGINAL: samparfitt


pic 2:
The brass tubing that is used to attach the elevator to the stab has to be recessed so I soldered on a thin loop of brass wire.
I can now push the brass tubing all the way to the end of the CF tubing and use a wire hook to pull the brass tubing back out.
I'll now have enough room for the 'control horn'.

BINGO!!!!! That is how the Rudder is suppose to be done also. Actually there is no other way to do it if the c/f post is solid. I soft solder on a flat washer that just fits over the copper tube. I then drill a very small hole in the tubing in about 1/16th of an inch. I then take a piece of very fine piano wire, make a 90 degree bend, then cut it off short enough to be able to reach into the tube and fit in the hole so you can pull out the tubes. This process is done on the ailerons, rudder and elevators.

The supplied phillips screws worked just fine for the rudder hinge. It did not take much feathering to make them flush. If the only thing you epoxy on the c/f rudder post is the turn rod, then it will be removable for maintenance once the rudder is removed. This is a clean setup and I like it. If your c/f rod is hollow, then I would recommend filling it with wood where the steering rod goes through or covering this area with tubing to give extra strength and area for epoxy.

Missing the bearing plates is no big deal, I had to remake mine to fit anyway. However, the three 10mm ballbearings sure work nice. You might pick them up faster from Boca Bearings than Comp-Arf

Paul

didiwatt 02-10-2009 08:56 AM

RE: COMP ARF 110" F4U ARF WITH FOLDING WING ASSEMBLY
 


ORIGINAL: samparfitt

The stab/elevator hardware package also has two 1/8" thick by about 3/4"X3" pieces of aluminum plate with three holes in each of them which I have no idea what they are for!
Sam, these are cowl brackets.

If you have the elevator package, you should have 2 ball bearings in it. The rudder ball bearing is exactly the same and is installed the same way. Referring back to your post #288, pictures #1 & 8. Using the brass tube will not allow the c/f tube, which will slide in from the top, to fit into the bearing. The brass collar will have to be reduced down to not much thicker than the rod.

Did you get a new elevator tube from comp-arf? Is it long enough?

Paul

didiwatt 02-10-2009 09:01 AM

RE: COMP ARF 110" F4U ARF WITH FOLDING WING ASSEMBLY
 


ORIGINAL: samparfitt

I was just looking at the rudder and I can put a screw in from the bottom of the rudder to hold that perpendicular wire to the rudder which will eliminate the screw in the side of the rudder.

That would make the rudder unremovable would it not?

samparfitt 02-10-2009 10:03 AM

RE: COMP ARF 110" F4U ARF WITH FOLDING WING ASSEMBLY
 
Paul,
thanks for the info.
That's a good idea on getting a 10mm bearing from Boca (I'll check that out next).
You're also right on the screw at the bottom of the rudder: I was re-reading the manual last night and it all became crystal clear on the proper procedure. It said the rudder CF rod assembly remains permanently in the fuse and with the two screws holding the top hinge to the fin, I realized that it also holds the rudder down and can easily be removed with just removing those two screws. I'll be dis-assembling the rudder mechanism and making the brass rod with a loop, as with the elevators.
For some unknown reason, I've been a little slow on grasping how the tail feathers were set up (probably old age!: when all else fails, read the 'manual' ).
As for the CF tubing, I'm finding that the ball bearings for the elevator fit over the CF tubing and not over my solid CF rod for the elevator (diameter is just a little too large).
Still deciding whether I should check the LHS for solid CF tubing or just fill in the center with options of epoxy or brass tubing or wood (as you mentioned).

Last night, I also checked on why my aluminum tube for the stab hasn't arrived yet since it was sent on 1-30-09 and the order status on the web says 'pending' so I emailed comparf on it. I can't do much on the vertical fin, etc until that tube arrives as I want to use the horizontal stab as a reference point on getting the vertical fin perpendicular to the stab.

samparfitt 02-10-2009 10:46 AM

RE: COMP ARF 110" F4U ARF WITH FOLDING WING ASSEMBLY
 
1 Attachment(s)
Boca bearing ordered.
part number: MF6700-ZZ
12 bucks, coming from Florida so probably 5-7 days.

didiwatt 02-10-2009 02:37 PM

RE: COMP ARF 110" F4U ARF WITH FOLDING WING ASSEMBLY
 


ORIGINAL: samparfitt


As for the CF tubing, I'm finding that the ball bearings for the elevator fit over the CF tubing and not over my solid CF rod for the elevator (diameter is just a little too large).
Yes, I had to sand the crap out of both of my solid rods. That is why I was so upset when I ordered the 10mm c/f tail tube and had to do the same with it. Sanding carbon fiber is the pitts.

Paul

didiwatt 02-10-2009 04:14 PM

RE: COMP ARF 110" F4U ARF WITH FOLDING WING ASSEMBLY
 
1 Attachment(s)
Sam:
Here is the promised larger picture of my hatch and tailwheel
Paul

didiwatt 02-10-2009 04:16 PM

RE: COMP ARF 110" F4U ARF WITH FOLDING WING ASSEMBLY
 
1 Attachment(s)
Here is a picture of my finished rudder post, hinge, and hinge tube

didiwatt 02-10-2009 04:18 PM

RE: COMP ARF 110" F4U ARF WITH FOLDING WING ASSEMBLY
 
1 Attachment(s)
Here is a couple shots of the plane on wheels, mostly done. I have now stripped it down and getting ready for paint.

didiwatt 02-10-2009 05:11 PM

RE: COMP ARF 110" F4U ARF WITH FOLDING WING ASSEMBLY
 
I am having trouble finding 1/2" flexible exhaust tubing for the radial. Does anybody out there know of a source?

Paul

samparfitt 02-10-2009 06:05 PM

RE: COMP ARF 110" F4U ARF WITH FOLDING WING ASSEMBLY
 
1 Attachment(s)
Paul,
Looks good, dude.
You're way ahead of me.
Thanks for the hatch picture: I was thinking of putting it on the side so your picture gives me another option to think about.
I 'over thought' the rudder assembly and bought a collar from ACE hardware to keep it from moving up/down but after seeing your picture, I realized that the rudder will keep it from moving.

Dick Bennett sells flexible exhausts:
http://bennettbuilt.com/
======================

Tail gear/feathers (cont)

Rudder (cont)

pic 1/2:
Since I don't have any solid 10mm CF rod, (and the two LHS don't have it), I'm just using the 10mm CF tubing and I put telescoped two pieces of brass tubing inside the CF tubing for extra strength.
In the first picture, the far wire goes into the rudder slot at the base of the rudder.
The center is some 1/4" thick ply with one of the ball bearings in the center.
The OD of the ball bearing is about 9/16"; I had not drill bit that size so I just drilled out a 1/2" hole and enlarged it with a dremel grinding bit.
The near rod is 4/40 threaded rod that is in a hole 45mm from the far hole and was drilled/tapped.
This 4/40 rod is at a 90 degree angle to the upper wire.
The right two pieces of 1/4" thick ply are for the elevator ball bearings.
The plys were sanded at an angle so the inside surface is perpendicular to an imaginary line drawn down through the center of the fuse. This keeps both ball bearings aligned with each other.

pic 3:
Dry fit of rudder assembly.
First step to put ply with ball bearing a CF tubing put in from the top.

pic 4:
I drilled out a 3/8" collar to hold the CF tubing to the fuse (but shouldn't need since the rudder will keep this assembly from moving up/down).
The 4/40 threaded rod was then screwed into the CF/brass tubing.
Later, I'll connect the servo ball sockets to the 4/40 rod.

pic 5/6:
Top view with nylon washer used as a spacer to keep the wire in the rudder slot.

pic 7:
Dry fit of the 1/4" thick ply/ball bearing for the elevator.

pic 8-10:
A lightly tension spring from ACE hardware (original compressed size on floor in picture) attached to the gear and wood former.
The spring moves the 'folding arm' the last 1/4" to fully put the retract in the UP position, as previously posted.
Up position.

pic 11/12:
Down position.


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