Ross15

Hi All

I am interested in the heli and plane side of things but still like the boats too, part the way through building another yacht.

I just wanted to get a bit of an idea from everyone on which boat looks, performs etc, all the qualities that make a good boat in general (include brands etc if you wish), whitch boat for this warship combat part of the hobby is the best.

Thanks

Ross

Wreno

No such thing as "Best". All have their strengths and weaknesses, just like in real life. Some are faster, some more maneuverable, some more heavily armed, some more heavily armored, some have more reserve displacement. All are tradeoffs, again just like the real life ships they are modeled after. All depends on your personality and battling style as to what is a good ship for you.

Suggestion. Since you are in OZ, check the Ausbg.org site for your closest club. Make contact, attend some battles. Ask questions.

And, welcome to the obsession.

Wreno

johnmCA72

If there was a single "best", you'd probably see that one almost exclusively. The fact that you don't see battles where a great majority of the ships are of a single class, or even type, suggests that there is no one "best" ship for combat. Personally, I think it's a lot more fun to see a variety of ships on the water, anyway, instead of all the same.

I can offer a few guidelines, for somebody that's just starting off to consider:

- Size matters. A bigger ship is easier to work on than a smaller ship. It's also easier to balance, can take more punishment before sinking, & handles wind & waves with less trouble than a smaller ship. Little zippy destroyers or torpedo boats can be fun, but can't usually carry enough battery to stay out all day, enough weaponry to be very effective, & can't even be launched if the wind is much over 10 mph.

- Speed is good. Faster ships generally allow you to get into or out of trouble more easily.

- Maneuverability is great. As with speed, being nimble helps you get into or out of trouble. You can get away from a faster, more powerful opponent with superior maneuverability. Likewise, you can stay engaged with a target more easily if you can out-turn it. Long, narrow ships tend to be faster; shorter, wider ships tend to be more maneuverable. The arrangement of props & rudders also has a big effect.

- If there's something that you just happen to like, for whatever reason, go ahead & build it! Find a way to make it work, & make it fun, even if it isn't what somebody else might consider "the best ship".

- Consider an unarmed cargo ship. This will get you into the action quickly & inexpensively. From that perspective, you'll be able to see what works well & what doesn't, under your club's battle conditions. Investing a lot of time & money into what 10 people tell you is the "best" ship, but turns out to be wrong for you, will cut down on your fun factor a lot more than not being able to shoot back for awhile. If you run cargo for awhile, you can see who's doing what, why they're doing it, formulate your own plan, pick"the "best" armed warship for you & your local battle conditions, then come back & exact revenge on all the guys who beat up on your poor, defenseless cargo ship!

JM

Ross15

I surpose when asking this question I worded it wrong, I realise there can not really be a perfect ship, more what I was after is the qualities that people like yourself like an your own ship(s) and what they are.

I woud like to buy all the gear atc to start but without a club in sight and no where to float a boat like that...
speed and agility were main factors in mind with something menacing.


But what works for you?

johnmCA72

OK. First, I trust that you're aware that there is a serious combat warship presence in Australia: http://www.ausbg.org/ I'd definitely contact them, if you haven't done so already. They've gone to all the trouble of dealing with the legalities & set up a fine organization. They can tell you what works well & what doesn't within the context of that organization, & their battles & help steer you in the right direction. While you may be able to strike out on your own, wouldn't it make sense to hook up with a group that's already jumped through the legal hoops? Also, it's impossible to have a battle with only 1 ship, so finding others to battle with has got to be an important consideration, too.

My personal preferences (1:144 scale):

Big is most survivable, & able to sail effectively under the greatest range of conditions (i.e. sea/wind states). If I only had 1 ship, I'd want it to be a big one. If I only had 1 small ship, there would be a fair number of times when I just couldn't use it. Also, a big ship would let me stay on the water longer, due to its ability to absorb damage, carry large batteries, & a large CO2 bottle. I don't have anything smaller than a cruiser right now, & I'd love to have a destroyer or 2, but they'd have to be "secondary" ships, used for short periods & when the conditions are right.

Speed & maneuverability are often mutually exclusive. Not many ships give you both together. My 1st large ship (HMS Nelson) has neither one; my 2nd large ship (HMS Hood) has good speed, but horrible maneuverability. You tend to miss what you don't have. After running both for several years, I got tired of watching other ships out-turn me when I tried to attack them so I opted to build USS Indiana (South Dakota) which has decent speed & great maneuverability. Speed is great to have, but I think I'd give the edge to maneuverabilty. If you're trying to evade another ship, being able to out-run it might work - but then where do you go? Most battles are held on ponds rather than open ocean, so you've eventually got to come back again & the bad guy can wait for you. On the other hand, a more maneuverable ship can get away from a faster one by making a tight turn & sending the attacker off in the wrong direction & give you enough of a head start to get back to port safely. If you're attacking/chasing, maneuverability lets you stay with somebody while they try to turn away. You can even catch a faster ship by cutting their turns short on them - I learned to do this with Nelson, even without good maneuverability.

Armament & armor are both good to have. More/larger guns, as well as thicker armor, tend to go with the larger ships, so there really isn't much of a choice, usually. If you go with a large ship, chances are it's going to have heavy armor & plenty of big guns. Small ships tend to have the opposite, but of course there are always exceptions to every rule. In particular, the early 20th Century saw some interesting & weird ship designs. Some of these packed a lot of main-battery guns, but would be awfully difficult to arm as scale models. For instance, the British HMS Agincourt had 7 main turrets with 2 guns each. While that may be an attractive amount of firepower, once you've managed to cram all of that into a scale model hull, there's not going to be any room left for gas to fire them, or batteries to sail the thing. That, & trying to keep track of where everything is aimed is liable to be a full-time job in itself, never mind having to maneuver the ship. Later ships are generally simpler in layout, & therefore easier to work with. The US Navy tended to standardize ship layout in the 1930s, with 2 forward & 1 aft main-battery turrets. Cost is a valid consideration for most people, & according to my own rule-of-thumb, each armed turret adds about US$150 to the total cost of the ship.

What do YOU like? That's always a good place to start. If there's some particular ship, or a list of ships, that you just happen to like for whatever reason, start there. I built my HMS Nelson because it's such an odd duck, I just had to have one - never mind that it's both slow AND maneuvers poorly, plus it can't shoot over the stern. If you've got any particular ships in mind, post them & let people list the pros & cons of each. I started out knowing next to nothing about 20th Century warships. I knew about the Iowa class, since they were active in my lifetime. I also knew about Bismarck, Hood, & Prinz Eugen because of their famous battle. That was about it, though. I took some advice (that I would never give to anybody else) that recommended a heavy cruiser as a good 1st ship & built USS Pittsburgh. I didn't have any cruisers other than Prinz Eugen on my "short list", & wanted to fight Allied, so I picked the latest class that saw action in WWII. It hasn't been a bad ship, but I wish I had built something bigger 1st. Complexity is the same as for a battleship of similar vintage, but everything has to fit in a much smaller space. With its narrow hull, stability was a real challenge. I'd never suggest to somebody new that they start out with a cruiser of any type, unless they've got their heart set on it already for some personal reason (like their father served on one, etc.), & even then they should proceed with caution & consider something else 1st.

Some people say that one's personal style of battling is an important consideration. I agree with that in general, but with the comment that until you've been in combat, you really don't know for sure what your personal style is. You may think one thing now, but reality may be very different when you actually get on the water & find yourself with the "wrong" ship. That's where building an unarmed cargo ship first can help. You can get a cargo ship on the water quickly, without a lot of investment, & get a good look at what others are doing. It's different, watching from a distance as a spectator vs. watching close up as a participant. To a spectator, it might all look like a big melee, but to somebody that's actually out there driving a ship - even an unarmed one - having an "investment" in the outcome makes you pay attention to certain details that others, from the outside, are liable to miss. You can get a very good idea of who's doing what, what works well & what doesn't, & learn from others' mistakes without having to make a big investment yourself. You might see one particular ship, well-handles, & think, "I'd like to have one of those." Or, another ship that you might have thought was a good choice, you might see somebody with something similar having problems & decide that's not for you after all. Frankly, sometimes we do see a new captain come out with a new ship that wasn't very well thought-out technically or wasn't a good choice for what they're trying to do. Sadly, those people often don't have as much fun as they could & sometimes end up getting frustrated & giving up. Of course, it's hard to convince anybody who wants to get into combat to "settle" for a cargo ship, & I probably wouldn't have taken my own advice if it had been given to me. However, it can get you on the water & into the action quickly, with a minimal investment, & even more important (I think) is that it allows you to make mistakes where they won't cost as much.

JM

Ross15

in the link was there any mention of a club in tasmania?

Ross15

in the rules is there specific guidelines about what sort of ship for example a battleship like the bismark, cam there be say a custom design of some kind?

johnmCA72

Not that I know of, but if you contact them they can provide more details, I'm sure. Victoria was closest, I think, but I don't know my way around all that well...

JM

johnmCA72

That's going to depend on the club, but I have a hard time seeing how anyone would allow that. It would be awfully tough to keep under control, & I'd expect that everybody would be building nothing but "custom" ships, & you'd never see a model of a "real" ship because they'd all be at a major disadvantage. It would open the door to some really wacky stuff, & I for one wouldn't want to see it.

JM

kotori

There is some excellent advice here. The most important thing is to get in contact with your local club (AusBG) and attend a battle. Second most important thing is to get in contact with you local club (AusBG) and attend a battle. I cannot stress enough how imporant that is. You can find out which chapter is closest to you and learn more about the rules specific to the Australian Battle Group. Once you contact them and decide you want to continue in the hobby, it is a good idea to first operate an unarmed freighter to learn how to drive under fire and repair damage before adding the extra complexity of guns. Of course, you don't have to and many people don't, but it is an easy way to get involved and learn what suits you best before making a larger investment.

You wanted to know what qualities I look for in a boat when choosing which to build. Ships must be models of historical ships from the two world wars. This means no custom ships, though allowances are made for ships that were under construction but were not completed (USS Montana, USS Lexington, etc). The requirement for historical ships means that you will sometimes see very interesting ships (LST that lands a micro tank, Russian circular battleship Adm Popov).

Looking at the historical data about a ship, there are four traits to look for: size, armament, armor and speed/maneuverability. These represent the maximum potential model combat ability of any ship. It is up to the builder to make the model achieve that maximum. A good captain can then take advantage of the ship's strengths and weaknesses to accomplish his mission.

However, the decision to build a ship is often based on other factors. One member of the WWCC built a model of HMS Warspite because it was smaller and easier to carry than his previous model, HMS Hood. Destroyers and cruisers are popular for that very reason. While short on firepower and survivability, they don't require as much space in the car nor as much strength to carry to and from the pond. I bought a used model of the Scharnhorst because I could refit it and get it fighting faster than I could build a ship from scratch. When I had to move into small college dorms, I traded the battleship Scharnhorst for the light cruiser Spahkreuzer because it was smaller and easier to maintain. Once I graduate, I want to get a battleship again. I am planning on building a pair of Roma class battleships with my brother. They are similar in size, speed, armor, and firepower to an Iowa class battleship (there is a particularly dangerous Iowa class vessel in the WWCC I will compare to). The deciding factor for these ships is that they are Italian so they can be either Axis or Allied. This will help keep battles even, this encouraging more violence, destruction, and fun for all participants. Also, with an identical ship to my brother I can compare to see who is the better captain (me, of course!).

Carl
Western Warship Combat Club

Ross15

I think this is what I was trying to get to when i started.

if I do get one i always wanted to have a ship simmilar in looks to the uss Missouri, possibely the uss Lowa.

i know the rule is that you can't make a ship that will not sink, but can things like virtical bulkheads (not seperately sealed) be placed along the hull. in essence a "water tight compartment" or is that seen as cheating?

kotori

Vertical bulkheads are generally illegal. In some clubs, one or two vertical bulkheads are permitted for certain classes of ships to improve their survivability, but this is generally not done as the bulkheads prevent water in one compartment from reaching your ship's one bilge pump located in the other compartment. Far more effective is installing water channeling to guide any and all water on a direct path to the bilge pump.

edit: You mentioned that you like the looks of the Iowa class fast battleship (Iowa, Missouri, New Jersey, Wisconsin). If that's what you like, then build it. The Iowas are big, fast, heavily armed battleships and are always a force to be reckoned with on the pond. If you like the looks of the Iowa class ships, you might also consider the South Dakota class battleship (South Dakota, Indiana, Massachusetts, Alabama). The South Dakotas have the same armor and armament as the Iowas. Though they are slower and smaller, they are well-known for their impressive maneuverability. The one active South Dakota class ship in the WWCC has been fighting other model warships since before I was born [X(]

As a note on ship abilities, the South Dakota and Iowa are a good example of two different ships with different abilities. Both are heavily armed and armored, but one is faster while the other is more agile. The fighting styles and tactics are different, but neither ship is better than the other. In the end it comes down to building ability and fighting style. And remember, if you aren't completely satisfied with the ship you build, you can always build a different one

Ross15

I didn't think bulkheads would be alowable on just any model.

The Iowa and South Dakota class really catches my eye when it comes to looks, I do have plans on building one but i have no idea on price (aus) of parts, boat or plans. Could you help?

johnmCA72

I use a general rule-of-thumb that "Everything costs US$150."

- Fiberglass hull: $150. Some more, others less, usually depending on the size. If you want to scratch-build with scrap materials, a hull can be built for next to nothing.

- Radio: $150. That, or a little less, will get you a reasonable 6-7 channel radio. Add in all the servos, connectors, extensions, Y-s, etc. that you'll end up needing, & it's in the ballpark.

- CO2 system: $150. Gas bottle, regulators, fittings, valves, hose, etc. More or less, depending on the number of armed guns, size of bottle, etc.

- Guns: $150 per turret. Larger magazine/more barrels, can cost more, smaller magazines/fewer barrels can cost less. A "typical" late-WWII arrangement with 2 turrets fore & 1 aft will cost around $450.

- Misc: $150. Motors, batteries, plywood for decks, blocks for superstructure, dowels for masts, balsa sheets for the hull skin, etc., etc.

Using that "typical" 3-turret ship as an example again, the rule-of-thumb predicts a cost of about US$1050.

JM

Ross15

And what about the radio gear, motors etc, does that all drown when the boat sinks, can you put them in a water tight container or is that not aloud, do many things need replacing much?

johnmCA72

That's certainly possible. Most (if not all?) clubs allow a watertight box for those things that don't like to get wet, as long as it's not so big that it keeps the ship from sinking. I've gone away from watertight boxes, myself, preferring instead to apply ScotchKote to any circuit boards, etc. Also, there are a number of speed controls available now that are already waterproof, which is a big help. Motors, pneumatics, etc. don't mind getting wet.

JM

Ross15

do you or anyone else have any pictures of the inside of your ships? because I have seen some insides of some boats and 1. everything looked exposed, 2. I couldn't tell what was what for some odd looking components. Is there any sort of list or general good idea of what to do with the inside of the boat, and as far as getting the components: is there any good place to get pieces other than hobby store.

Thanks

johnmCA72

Various combat-related web sites have photos of ships' layouts. I guess, if you don't know what you're looking at, it might as well be extra-terrestrial. Maybe what somebody needs to do is post some photos with callouts, pointing to specific items & then breaking them out to show in more detail? I don't know of any site that has that, exactly.

Other than guns, everything is off-the-shelf or user-fabricated. Radios, servos, & speed controls are standard R/C stuff. Clippard is the major supplier of pneumatic control components, that are adapted to CO2 systems. Gas bottles are standard paintball issue. Wood, brass, plywood, balsa, misc. smaller items such as rod, clevises, couplers, etc. come from hobby shops.

Go to http://www.ntxbg.org & navigate to the 'INTEL' page. There are links to a lot of different clubs' web sites, & everybody has a little different take on construction. Also see 'On The Ways' & 'The Ships' while you're at http://www.ntxbg.org to see what that club does.

JM

Ross15

So I don't surpose anyone knows a good place to get the plans for one of the battle ships good enough to build off?
I havent had much luck off the internet.

Thanks

johnmCA72

A lot depends on exactly what you mean by "good enough to build off?" If you mean something that has patterns for cutting, assembly instructions, bill of materials, sources, etc. then you're probably not going to find it. What everybody that I know does, is to start with what's usually a single sheet set of "plans" that show several different views of the ship: Plan (overhead), profile (side), & section ("slices", down the length) are essential. If we're lucky, we might get a forward, end-on view as well as breakouts of the superstructure decks. From there, we're on our own to figure out how to get the job done. That's where the club is a huge help, because there are people available who have done this before, know pretty well what works (there can be several ways to get the same thing done) & what doesn't work (most important! Having this knowledge available can save tons of time & money!).

Following are some plan sources that I've used personally:

http://home.bellsouth.net/p/s/commun...pid=231663&ck=
http://floatingdrydock.com/
http://www.loyalhannadockyard.com/

For some further reading, I'd like to suggest a series of articles that I wrote several years ago, where I attempted to chronicle my own first attempts at building a combat warship, without the help of a club. Do not mistake this for a "how-to" series, more like a "how-did". There's plenty of stuff in there that I'd never do again, & wouldn't recommend to anybody else. I tried to note such issues as I found them when I wrote the articles, but time has a way of making what once seemed like a good idea less so & the series has never been updated to reflect lessons learned much later, or improved technologies that have made some of my original techniques obsolete. Still, I think it can be a useful read just to get an idea of what somebody can expect to go through. The series may be found at http://www.ntxbg.org - navigate to "On The Ways" & from there to the "So You Want To Build A Warship" series.

JM

kotori

Another option you may consider is to go with a fibreglass hull from Bowning Shipyards. A fibreglass hull generally allows for much faster ship construction than scratch building. I prefer scratch building, but that is only my opinion.

http://www.ausbg.org/BSY/

Ross15

All I need to be able to make a hull is the front or end on view with cross sections of the hull at various spots to form a rib cage structure from.

Ross15

one thing I am wondering, being a little hard with no local clubs is how everything is attached to the outer hull, if there are tricks in doing this or what else. I could probably understand greatly from pictures of the inside too.


After considering many different abilities I think I have settled on the uss South Dakota. I was thinking of the 'Roma' but at 1/144 the south dakota class sounds good.

kotori

That gave me an excellent idea for a photo series, showing the layout and components in a ready-to-fight warship. The first photo is of a boat, with all components removed so it's just the bare hull. Mounting points and other hull features (water channeling, etc) are circled and pointed out. The second photo adds guns, motors, and steering gear. The third adds bilge pumps and other non-consumable components. The fourth adds batteries, ammo, and CO2 bottle. The fifth shows the completed boat, ready to fight.

I will try and take this when next I'm home from college. But of course there isn't just one way to do things, so if other people could do something similar that would be great.

Ross15

Thats a great idea since there isn't a lot on the internet on the subject of rc big gun warfare that specify that type of detail.