koolaidman

hi im a noob. Im building a model destroyer in my spare time mostly for the amusement of reaking havoc in the next model sailboat race. Anyways, i have the guns, depth charges, and props all worked out. however the rc car guts that i planned to use doesnt have very good range. I have heard something about servos or something, i am just looking for a cheap, easy way to control props rudder and 2 other functions for under $100. thanks.

Umi_Ryuzuki

As combat modelers we have a lot more responsiblity to set good examples of behavior.

It only takes one person to complain to have airguns on rc models banned, declared illegal, and have fines imposed for operating a projectile weapon by remote/radio control.

I think all of the clubs and participant have exorcised a lot of self restraint in order to make this a safe and sporting hobby.

Please don't use your ship irresponsibly, or in a disruptive manner.
It may affect us all across the nation.

[sm=sleeping.gif]

Jhoyoza

I'm curious what country or state are you in?

Its a BB gun, and I know of no regulations here in Massachusetts about such fines or restrictions? People complain all the time about my boat and I don't even have weapons. What I do on private property is just that...private. It is obvious that malcontents are everywhere, and complaints are expected. Even discouraging ones that imply evil intent.

I do however, believe that safety is important.

But really, it is a air-propelled projectile and, anyone without a license can purchase BB-gun or pellet-gun that shoot projectiles at 2,500 feet per/sec and thats in Massachusetts where we have the strictest gun laws in the country (except for California) This hobby it is truly minimal in retrospect and I'm assuming that most peoples intentions are good. I doubt any of these hobbyist are approaching anywhere near those muzzle velocities.

Thanks!

-J

Umi_Ryuzuki

There are no laws, I like it that way, and want to keep it that way....


All someone has to do is shot a duck.
All Someone has to do is shoot someone elses model boat without permission.
All somone has to do is hit a child in the park.

The lawyers and laws will come soon after

That is why I mention it. I hope that everyone understands their responsiblity to the hobby.

koolaidman

first off i didnt say anything about bb's before i even heard about the warship clubs you guys have i came up with a neat idea on how to make a small foam projectile using a barrel a pinch size of black power- makes some smoke and shoots a piece of foam about 20 ft. Thus i will not ruin your sport or get a lawsuit filled etc. so sum1 please help me out with the rc problem.

LtDoc

koolaidman ,
Hope you have friends with extra radios they don't need any more. Otherwise, that $100 isn't going to go very far. Basic requirements are a transmitter/receiver, a speed controller for the motor(s), and a servo to turn the rudder. Certainly not impossible for that amount but it's going to take some shopping.
Now, just for your information only. That 'pinch' of black power just turned your boat into a 'firearm', no matter what it uses as a projectile. That's not me saying that, it's the BATF. It's your neck... That 'private property' thingy is also sort of questionable. Are you the owner? If not, you'd better get the required permission in writing! You really do not want to 'go there'. But again, it's your neck that'll be immediately under the axe. Unfortunately, the rest of us are going to catch some of it too!
- 'Doc

Jhoyoza

Oh Brother!

Paranoia the destroyer

Umi_Ryuzuki

The city pond where the guys run boats since 1936 has been posted,
"Illegal to run internal combustion models... $500 fine", for the last 10 years because
someone complained. We had no say in the matter.

So, Koolaidman comes into a Combat Warship forum, where we carry on discussions about bb and ball bearing(up to 1/4" ) shooting warships.

And Says:
And I, and the model yacht club he intends as a target, are supposed to be okay with that, and encourage that behavior? You're telling me you would be fine if I pulled up along side your "non combat" scale model and opened fire?
Most modelers outside of combat do not likely take to such damage.

Are we seeing the same picture here?[&:]

barnstormerboats

When you claim you are trying to "(W)reak Havoc" on a group of racing sailboats, what are we supposed to think? Not many grown responsible adults will support or assist someone who is intent on WREAKING HAVOC. No good can come of it.

Jhoyoza

Look Koolaidman was just curious about getting some info?

I'm not sure his intent is to disturb anyone. I think he was implying giving a bit of a shock-factor with all due permissions. Of course I could be wrong, and I don't know the gentleman. However I think the jumping all over him with these apparent assumptions is more childish than what he is being accused of!

Certainly open exhaust on a 2-stroke engines would be a concern to residents, and why would you do that near them anyway? Is there not more compatible place than a city-pond? There is also a horsepower limit on a local-pond here and I don't blame the previous boaters! The two-stroke racing snow-mobiles made it difficult for the residents. And right-fully so.

He never claimed he was going to shoot a duck? Or even shoot another modelers boat? Step on anyone's transmitter, sink a non-combat boat, or aim to hit a child with his blank-gun loaded with a foam projectile?? (The ducks love my electric boat! they look forward to the entertainment.) BTW: Using black powder to fire a toy cannon is not an issue with the ATF?? If anything it may be a local noise ordinance issue and if they would certainly encourage discretion in regard to any officer when responding to such a complaint. You can buy toy-cannons everywhere. Anyone with a simple FID card can purchase Black-Powder and certainly gain permissions to fire it. The recipe of making a noise-powder from saltpeter, sulfur, and charcoal is all over the internet, and I did it myself as a kid. I don't think the ATF will be kicking in doors over it anytime soon.

Is this now a forum that dictates imaginary laws and make unsupported accusations?

There are a lot of clubs and being a big-shot doesn't impressing anyone. I'm also the president of a few organizations and flashing my ID card does little other than to show perhaps I'm using credentials to support an argument that has been blow out of proportion, and can't be supported without using innuendo's and assumptions. Anyone can start a club, be the president if they choose, or as voted. There are hundreds of them. So far, we are still a free country. Kool-Aid would be more than welcome to fire his harmless noise-cannon at one of my sailing events. I soon plan to start my own battle-boats club here locally. Perhaps we could do it during the fourth of July events when they fire the full replica-cannons in celebration. Go ahead, complain about that or even the most awesome fireworks themselves! (And I know the ducks hate fourth-of-July fireworks!)

I certainly don't see this a law enforcement issue. I can't imagine the locals making a big deal out what amounts to a fire-cracker! (I could hear the court magistrate now, chewing out an officer about fighting "real crime" rather than wasting his time with trivial nonsense.) At most the device would be confiscated, only if permissions were not obtained or not under adult supervision.

Perhaps you may consider holding your events in a less "anal-istic" environment. Or perhaps take a closer look at your own position. I simply can Imagine a place more uptight than Massachusetts and it would still be OK here. Perhaps your from Canada? (I'm just glad your not "my" neighbor.) I welcome new battle-boat members and I would have no assumptions other than everyone as being safety minded and willing to follow the rules.

I encourage all to enjoy the hobby. Follow and rules. Patronize the hobby vendors available and help them survive as it is the love of the hobby is what mostly keeps it alive. And to those who think they have cornered the "fun" factor...I give a big....thuuuuuupppph (Raspberry) [:-]

-J

koolaidman

well thanks Jhoyoza. i know you guys take this hobby really seriously but honestly there are much worse things that i could do than make a boat that shoots bits of foam. plus the race is just a class that has built sail boats and they are just testing them out. im not looking to cause domestic disturbances or ruin your sport (or shoot a duck) i just want to have a bit of fun. also, legally, no cop is gonna arrest me for having an rc boat.

Umi_Ryuzuki

If we don't check first any of the above could happen. That's why we mention it.
Otherwise you wouldn't hear of people sueing Mcdonalds because they spilled coffee on themselves.

[edit]
If is wasn't anal, I wouldn't be building scale model boats.
If I was as anal as implied, I wouldn't let other people shoot my boats full of holes.

LtDoc

Jhoyoza,
I can't say about Massachusetts, but I can tell you that in this state there are definitely restrictions about the use of firearms and black powder (or smokeless powder for that matter, and I would seriously advise you to look up the definition of firearm).
This is a particularly 'bad' time to mention anything to do with actual or potential weapons. A few months ago, probably nothing would have been said about this 'issue', or at least the 'exceptions' wouldn't be quite as 'dramatic'. I'm pretty certain you can figure out why.
Safety is always something you should think about. Maybe not consciously, but constantly. A 'band aide' may not be the result, but peace of mind will be (your's, mine, their's).
It's one of those 'tudes' things, attitudes, ways of expressing yourself. Some are more 'productive' than others, and circumstances will usually determine that. So does knowing at least a little about the person doing the 'expressing'. Under the circumstances, and considering the lack of knowledge about the one doing the 'expressing', I'm sure that this 'exception' to an idea can be understood. (Know what I mean, Vern?)
- 'Doc

PS - And, no, I am not asking anything about anyone. My 'approval' certainly isn't needed, or wanted, and is also not being offered. What I am offering is a little bit of advice, and that is to "think about it".

Jhoyoza

Hey Doc,

No offense. I understood the gun law part, but could you try the rest again in English? As far as a firearm is concerned, it is exactly that - a firearm. Is a toy-cap-gun a fire arm? Do you know what is in those caps? How about those poppers kids throw on cement? I hate to break the news but it is all a form of black-powder. What is the difference between safety-kitchen-matches and black powder? I will tell you; kitchen matches have the igniter built in and a few extra volatile additives.

You don't need a License, so far, to purchase any of them. Or a back-ground check. (Some cities have local ordnances about air-rifles and maximum velocities. Illinois is one. You can’t get one shipped to NY city. Can't blame them there.) And some states have air-gun rifling and velocity restrictions. And there are countless city and town by-laws and regulations. Mostly misdemeanors and 9 out of 10 would be dismissed to avoid it being challenged in higher courts.

However, considering your band-aide approach to such matters, perhaps you could lobby your congressman and/or inform Home-land-security of the over-site. maybe they could force people to dull kitchen knives and register razor-blades while their at it. I wish you good-luck!

Well I have to admit, my comment about credentials is still valid, and I feel a bit guilty of it myself in this case. But let it be known I'm being provoked and I'm certainly not using them to defend an innuendo or false accusation. It just happens that gun laws is something I know about. As a member of two gun-clubs and a range-officer at one of them. I have a high-capacity license and a license to carry concealed handguns for ALL legal purposes in Massachusetts and in four other States. (You won't get that in Massachusetts with out knowing fire-arms laws. You practically have to go to college.) BTW: A noise cannon is not a fire-arm in any state anymore than any opened ended piece of pipe is with wheels on it.

It is the intent that matters! Making noise is not justification for fire-arms classification.

But for you, I did look up Oklahoma: (FYI: OK has the largest shotguns sales of any other state. Must be all those rodents!)

No permit required to purchase rifles and shotguns. No Registration of rifles and shotguns. No Licensing of owners of rifles and shotguns. No Permit required to carry rifles and shotguns. (Now if I remember correctly, Shot-gun shells are loaded with smokeless-powder-pellets!) I saw no restrictions or license to purchase black-powder or ammunition other than tracers and armor piercing. You CAN even buy and posses rapid-fire ammunition magazines that can fire up to 100 rounds without reloading!

Try that in Massachusetts!

Black powder, smokeless powder, and ammunition can be purchased in many states without a license. (Ever been to Maine?) In some states you only need to be 18 years old and have a valid drivers license. (Ever been to a gun show?) I think it is 16 in Texas or Florida, not sure, I would have to look that up and I have done enough for one day already…sheesh. In New-Hampshire you can buy fire-works in unlimited quantities of ever kind if over 18 years old. It doesn't take a genius to figure what makes those go bang.

What next, you going to accuse the guy of making a bomb?

Perhaps we should all wear metal-helmets and life preservers due to the fact that we MIGHT get hit by lightning or FALL into a puddle of water and drown. I know! Outlaw cow-pies as they can be used as a catalysis for fertilizer bombs and anthrax! Print up fliers, get bull horns and warn everyone! Sorry but, this has gone to far. I really would like to go back and enjoy the hobby aspect of this again.

You may want to try Anti-gun forums as they would be delighted with your band-aid approach.

-J

Wreno

Please take this in the helpful manner in which it is intended.

I think the whole point is that Koolaidman's stated purpose, to "Wreak havoc" gives us his intent. And his intent, based on his statement, is to spoil the fun of others (the sailors). How is ruining someone else's day and generally being a pain, fun?

As for the guns/firearms stuff - remember, even if there is no law against it (and, you might be amking a wrong assumption here), that does not pvevent someone from suing you into oblivion if they or their property are injured or interfered with (or they even perceive so).

Remember, most of us have spent hundreds, if not thousands, of dollars and untold hours, on our ships, and take safety very seriously with our fun. Somthing that woul generate complaints, and thus tend to help reduce the number of places we can find to allow us to battle is taken pretty seriously, too. Our club was run off a city pond after battling there for 5 years, because one resident complained that it was destroying the "ambiance" of 'her' park by having a bunch of people having fun there one Sunday afternoon a month (we also kept the waterway clean, and it has since turned into a steaming pile of trash).

Think of it this way. If someone were to introduce a virus to your computer to trash it, or just make the mouse act up, how amused would you be? If someone were to set up a set of trojans such that your internet service was curtailed and you couldn't post to or read the forums, would you be amused? Do you have a car? Would you like it keyed? Are you tickeld to death when someone goes peeling rubber through your neighborhood? All of the above are simply wreaking havoc on you and could, by your definition be "fun" for the person doing it. Personally, that is outside my definition of fun, and I have other, less pleasant, words to describe that kind of behaviour. If you think about it honestly, probably you would too.

Cheers,

Wreno

Ron Olson

My Feedback: (1)

OK, you've gotten my attention and a lot of you know my feelings on unwarranted destructive behavior or just trying to be a pain in the ass. What I see here is exactly what was stated in the first posting, an attempt to cause trouble at a sailboat event.
They will have no sense of humor about such actions and wouldn't blame them a bit if you got into a lot of trouble.

Now, give me just one reason why I should let this thread survive. I've dumped threads before of a destructive nature and can easily do so again. We are trying to put a positive spin on our hobby/sport and trying stunts like you'd want to attempt will do us no good whatsoever.

Tachikaze

From koolaidman's initial post, one did get the impression that he was going to use the ship to attack non-combat ships. Umi_Ryusuki's post was correct in pointing out that there may be consiquences to doing such an act. The only thing I think that she may have missed was how the individual whose ship you would damage would feel. Many of those who spend a lot of time, effort and money on making their scale ship, would not appreciate it being damaged. If he had mentioned in the start of his thread what he did in his second post, then perhaps we would not know just how much of an idiot jhoyoza is.
I do not understand how he could be so irresponsible and inconciderate to make the statements that he did. First off, this is not a question about what you state law does or does not say about the use of BB guns and firearms and explosives. This is about taking responsibilty for your own actions and being aware of the reprecutions of those actions are. If he had any idea at all with regards to combat warships and the game they play, there is no way he would be making these statements. And I can tell you right now, no one with this disregard to safety and others would ever be allowed to play in our R/C Combat Club.

kotori

Whoa, everyone, cool off and calm down a bit. Koolaidman, I have a few questions about what you're doing. I would appreciate it if everyone else stays quiet for a bit to let Koolaidman explain a bit better what he intends to do.

So, Koolaidman, does the model sailboat club that you plan on interacting with know of your plan? Are they aware that you plan to operate your boat during their race, at the same pond as them?

Also, are YOU aware of the potential consequences of your actions? Not just the most likely reactions, but all possibilities?

To be honest, there is absolutely nothing that I can do to stop you short of driving from California to Massachusetts and physically obstructing your plans. However, I would appreciate it if you considered the possible repercussions. If you sneak-attacked the sailboat club like the Japanese at Pearl Harbor (that's the impression I got from your first post) then your actions might permanently shut down the greatest sport in the history of mankind. And I personally enjoy Model Warship Combat and would rather not see it shut down.

This thread has gotten WAY off-topic. Originally it was a question about radio equipment, and now we're talking about gun control. Sorry folks but that's pretty bad. Let's get this resolved quickly so Koolaidman's original question can be answered.

Captain Nemo12

Guys, don't take "wreaking havoc" literally. It must've been one of those spur-of-the-moment things. I mean, if I said I was gonna ram the **** out of the ducks at my local pond with my boat, doesn't mean that I'll actually do it! Plus, why would a model sailboat club let an armed model warship enter their race in the first place? I think if most of us were looking at a pack of sailboats runnning peacefully, we'd think twice about destroying them.

koolaidman

ya, first off the "wreak havok" was just a spur of the moment thing to explain that i wasnt building a long term boat for a club. "wreak havok" was not the right phrase i should have said "cause mischeif" or something. Being that this idea is not completely considerate however it in NO WAY can cause any destruction. The guns have literally a pinch of gunpowder that shoots a FOAM sabot only about 20 ft. Also the gun turret is stationary and is not intended to aim. it will only make a small flame and crack sound so it cannot do any damage and no boat or human (or duck) will be harmed. kotori to answer your question, no they do not know of my plan however i know many of them and my boat will likely arouse humor and surprise rather than anger. ALso these are not proffesional hobbyists competing in a race they are just a class that built sailboats going to test them out. Also there are many dangerous topics to be discussed and i dont see how building a remote controlled boat that makes puffs of smoke is one of them. Anyways all i wanted was to know of a long range remote control and inadvertantly i pissed alot of you guys off. so ill leave you alone and go to another forum.

Umi_Ryuzuki

We could have moved on after your second post, but someone felt that you couldn't properly express ideas and had to rant at everyone.[&:]

Most three channel radios will run about $120 to $370.
You can get a Futabe with no servos for $110, but it sounds like you will need two servos.
One to steer, and the second to switch power to your igniters. You will also need a third servo, or an
Electronic Speed Control(ESC) to power the boat forward and reverse.
Do a search on Tower Hobbies you should find a few.

johnmCA72

1 reason (whether it's good enough or not, we'll see):

Every now & then some kid (usually) posts, who has this "great idea" how to "improve" the hobby. Never mind that most such "improvements" would make the game very lopsided in favor of the guy with the "great idea" & the "battle" would be pretty much over as soon as the 1st shot was fired - it would be "kewl" to blow somebody else's boat to smithereens! Or chase ducks around. Or shoot down airplanes. Or disrupt somebody else's sailboat event (even if it's "only" a class that's testing some sailboats that they built, not "professional hobbyists" (whatever THAT means!), I'm sure that it's important TO THEM, if only an opportunity to have fun at somebody else's expense to the OP).

The good news is that the cost & attention span needed to build & equip a combat warship is more than most 14-year-olds have available to them. Although a lot of people complain about the cost of building & equipping a combat warship, I think that this cost of entry is an important barrier to help keep idiots from ruining it for everybody. While one guy will lost interest & move on, looking for some other way to ruin other people's fun, there might be some value in keeping the thread alive for the benefit of the next "kewl idea" poster who comes along - who most certainly will, eventually.

I'd like to offer a definition of "maturity": Knowing that you can have your own fun, without it having to be at the expense of another.

While some might think I have "something up my bum" for being considerate of others (who may not appreciate having their own fun disrupted, but hey, what's that to ME?), another definition of "maturity" is not caring what idiots like that think.

JM

Ron Olson

My Feedback: (1)

I've dumped threads before for being a detriment to our sport/hobby. One that stands out was the deliberate destruction of a gas powered boat by using some kind of explosive and the author calling it a "mishap" which it clearly wasn't. Not only was it very dangerous to those watching this stupid stunt but also illegal. I'd bet that the others living on the lake weren't too happy about hearing the loud explosion on the water early in the morning.
Not only did I toss it but it was quickly gone from other forum sites also.

This being a Warship Combat forum, I do know what this is about but we're talking limited damage that can be somewhat easily repaired. No, I can't see someone going out and trying to ruin other people's day by causing trouble. I also feel the depth charges and exploding torpedoes have no place in warship combat either.

johnmCA72

Oh, that's OK, then. As long as it's only "cause mischief" & not "wreak havoc" there's no problem!

What's the matter, is giving wedgies getting to be "old hat"?

(famous last words)
Then again, they may decide that enough is enough, gang up on you, & beat you to death.

Excuse me, but aren't "professional" & "hobbyist" direct opposites? That sounds like one of those absurd combinations, like "business ethics", "government assistance", "military intelligence", etc.

Oh, OK - It's "only" something that they've invested their time & effort into. Their whole purpose is to entertain you, right? Just like the rest of the world is only here for your entertainment. It's may be all they can handle, just to learn how to sail their boats around, but wouldn't it be funny to sail your boat around in their way, blowing smoke puffs? If they don't like it, that's even funnier! The only thing that could possibly be better would be if they're handicapped, or something.

The fact that you don't see something makes it non-existent, then. That simplifies a lot of things - I'll have to give it a try!

What next, when picking on nerds isn't fun anymore - killing small animals?

JM

johnmCA72

I don't think it's a detriment to the sport/hobby to let it be known, publicly, in the most unequivocal terms possible, that certain behaviors will not be tolerated.

JM