Al Stein

Not the prettiest boats in the world, but the Liberty Ships have a mighty important place in history.

Anybody got a set of hull lines they might be able to post for these "Ugly Ducklings"?

johnmCA72

I've got BOTH Liberty Ship AND Victory Ship plans. I don't have a scanner big enough. Cost to copy & ship would be about the same as if you buy your own. I got them from George Goff:

http://www.att.net/p/s/community.dll...pid=231663&ck=

JM

Deathwish

My Feedback: (6)

Check this out. Maybe you can brib the guy to get a set made.

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_61...tm.htm#6669161

kotori

Here are some free plans that recently became available on the RC Naval Combat website. One is for the Japanese oiler Mehoshi Maru, CAD modeled for 1/144 RC combat by yours truly. The other is the French fleet oiler Elorn in 1/144 scale. Neither of these is a liberty ship, but it is something. I believe you can get fiberglass hulls in 1/144, but I'd need to take a look to find the sources again. Do you intend to sail in combat, or do you want a non-combat model?

[link=http://www.rcnavalcombat.com/rcnavalcombat/FileManager/ViewFile.aspx?id=740]Mehoshi Maru[/link]
[link=http://www.rcnavalcombat.com/rcnavalcombat/FileManager/ViewFile.aspx?id=594]Elorn[/link] and [link=http://www.rcnavalcombat.com/rcnavalcombat/FileManager/ViewFile.aspx?id=595]Elorn rib sections[/link]

Deathwish, you just reminded me I need to update that thread. There has been some progress on that build.

Al Stein

Thanks for the answers, guys, and keep 'em comin'!

I'm planning to sail in warship combat (uhh, I guess Umi and the other Axis types might say what I want to build is a target) in 1/144, from scratch. Building plans would be cool, but I really don't need them if I have a set of transverse hull cross-sections (stations/buttocks) -- I do have profiles I can work from, and I've seen enough photos to make a credible hull shape, but I'd really prefer acurate over credible.

JohnM -- any chance you could scan just the buttocks for me? BTW, this will be my second 1/144 Warship project (both ongoing), the other an Atlanta class light cruiser using George Goff's ship plans -- I got those drawings from George when I met him a year or two ago down in his part of the world. Very nice stuff.

Deathwish -- good pointer... There's actually enough detail there for me to build a 3-Island tramp (Thanks Kotori -- nioce job!), which I may just do: they're nicer looking ships that the Libertys, but I'm hoping for a little larger (Liberty => 3 foot model; Tramp => 2 foot model) and more solidly WWII era vs WWI.

Kotori -- nice boats! And an interesting approach, machining the way for the prop tubes, steering gear, etc. Thanks for the R/C Naval Combat pointers. I like the forums there, but I can't get all of the files... a membership thing, maybe (I'm just a brand new member.)

Umi_Ryuzuki

Some decent side views here
http://www.marinersinternational.com/end_of_an_era.html

I bought Goff plans once... Decided to draw my own after I got them.. [&:]


Here's another...
http://www.transchool.eustis.army.mi...asportWWII.htm

johnmCA72

Sure, I'll see if I can get them scanned this evening.

JM

johnmCA72

(removed)

kotori

If you're building for RC combat then you probably want to contact your local club for their rules and regulations. Most clubs have regulations about ribs, hull sides, top and bottom of penetrable area, etc. that do not apply to non-combat models. There are several different styles or flavors of RC warship combat, which use slightly different regulations for their construction and battling.

I personally chose to build 3-island tramps instead of Liberty's BECAUSE of the size difference. the 3-island tramps I am building are shorter length (hence more maneuverable) and have less freeboard (hence harder to hit) than liberty's. My local club is currently rich with agile cruisers and destroyers, which have intercepted and scuppered every single medium transport that has sailed in the past two years. I'm hoping to turn that record around, and to do that I need ships that can outmaneuver a cruiser. The downside is that they're small boats, if they take more damage than the pumps can handle they'll probably be six feet under before I get a chance to react.

I have access to the Elorn and Mehoshi Maru plans. I can email them to you if you want. You may be having problems with the RC Naval Combat forum and files because you haven't posted yet (have you? I don't know if the forum requires posting to download, but I wouldn't be surprised). The other possibility I can think of is that you're not logged in when you try to download the files. If neither of those is the case, then just let me know and I'll email them right over.

Al Stein

I love this place!!!! (Of course I ought to love it, just considering its history, but that's another story.)

Many thanks JM -- Together with top and side views I already have that's all I needed to get some construction under way.

Carl -- you make some mighty good points -- and like I said before, I do prefer the loko of the 3-island ships. And I guess that if you're going to be a target, being the biggest target you can is not necessarily the best way to go. (I chose my Atlanta project based on wanting the biggest warship that fits across the back seat of a Honda. But what works for combatants may not work so well for the unarmed.)

The R/C Naval Combat Forums is letting me see downloads now. And I like the oilers, too... So many ships; so little time! Do you build your ships to fully submerge? I've restricted my past boats (not even warships) to "legally" sinking but tried to aviod going to the bottom. Rules I've seen count a boat sunk if the decks are awash, so I prefer to try for the iceberg effect... enough protruding to remain visible and, hopefully, to grab on to.

And of course, thank you, Amy -- I suspected you'd where to find all sorts of things I've never seen before!


So now I have to decide which to start with and do some detailed design work. Too bad working for a living takes so much time away from other important things!

johnmCA72

HTH!

I like oilers & tankers, too. All the piping, etc. above the main deck give them a little more to look at than the usual cargo ship.

That's an aspect of "realism" that I enjoy, seeing them go down like the images of the real thing. Bow up, stern up (screws still turning, even), rolling over, etc. all adds to the fun. A "technical sink", with only decks awash, is kind of like a TKO in boxing - not totally satisfying. A good sink is like seeing a heavyweight sprawled out on the canvas, with cartoon birds & stars spinning around his head!

JM

Al Stein

Good point re: sinking. It's a little like pranging a new airplane for the first time... it's got to happen, but I tend to dread it until it does!

re: HTH -- Oh, you bet! That's exactly what I was hoping for...as they out here in the back woods of the Alleghenies... Thank you muchly!!

johnmCA72

I still remember the 1st time I got sunk. There was this absolutely delicious moment of sheer terror, when I knew that it was going to go & there wasn't anything I could do about it. Too far from shore to make it back to where I could scoop it up, my baby was GONE!! For a few seconds, I didn't know if I'd ever see it again.

Of course, I got it back, patched up & dried out. I've been sunk many times since then, but it's never felt quite the same as the first one.

JM

Umi_Ryuzuki

During my first sink, there were three of us newbies just trading shots.
I knew I was going down, and fought for seven minutes. When one of the
other guys realized what was happening he made a last attack.
I went down with the guns firing..

The third guy was groaning, and lamenting as I put down my transmitter so I
could run up the bank and grab a camera. He then started yelling take it out,
get it out of the water. I looked at him, and then at the sunken boat lying on the bottom,
and reluctantly walked back to pull the boat out. Took the rest of the afternoon to
disassemble and dry things out.

I really should have gone for the camera, it was my first sink after all.

kotori

I'd compare sinking to having a clown throw a pie in your face. It's a little embarrassing but everybody cheers and laughs, then you clean yourself up and get ready to do it again. Plus I like pie

I still clearly remember EACH of my sinks (seven and counting). Almost all of them were due to mechanical failures (pumps, propulsion, etc) which was particularly embarrassing, but once I got into an armed ship I started paving the path to Davey Jones Locker with the wreckage of my rivals. I'll bet that once I've been sunk as many times as John has that they'll all kinda blur together... (just kidding, no offense meant towards John's skippering skill or memory)

My first sink was actually pretty violent. I'd gotten chewed up by a pocket battleship and I knew my cruiser was sinking, but I was determined to take another ship with me. Fortunately, a delicious-looking french destroyer had broken down nearby, so I pounced. My torpedo volley was definitely a low blow, and it was quite satisfying. In fact if it had been any lower of a blow it would have bounced off the destroyer's impenetrable bottom. The destroyer's pump was instantly overwhelmed and my offering to Poseidon was sent on its way. I went down a few minutes later, but I could rest easy knowing that the other team had paid dearly for sinking my cruiser.

johnmCA72

Oh, no offense taken or implied!

I don't mind sinking at all. It's a big part of the game, & lots of fun in its own right. Those who try to avoid getting sunk miss out on a lot of fun, I think. It's easy to avoid getting sunk, just by avoiding active combat, but where's the fun in that? I've gone out on a one-vs-many scenario a few times - what the "many" failed to realize was that I could outpoint them by a huge margin! They could only get 1 ship's-worth of sink points from me, but I could get lots more from them, & at the end of the day come away with a victory! Regardless of the odds, though, I usually figure that if I can take more than my own value down with me, I've had a good day. I think that if everybody approached combat with the idea that they're going to sink, but take as many of the "enemy" down with them as they can, there would be some great battles.

There also may or may not have been times (I can't divulge specifics, just like acknowledging whether or not I'm carrying nuclear weapons) when I may or may not have "taken a dive" for the benefit of somebody that I thought could use a victory. After all, it's supposed to be fun for everybody & those who get frustrated time after time eventually stop coming back.

JM

Al Stein

Which reminds me of the first time I capsized a sailboat other than in a practice drill...

It was an early season race in March and we'd driven many an hour to get to the regatta. The weather was unseasonably warm the night before the races and the ice-breaker went very well. (Our team motto: we might not win many races but we always win the party! But I digress... )

By the time we had the skippers' meeting the next morning, the temperature had lost a good thirty degrees or more and was still falling. The breeze was freshening fast through the first few heats and by the time it was my first turn in the boat the gusts were starting to reach gale force. (Nope, not exagerating here -- Flying Juniors in 35+ know gusts.) It was a tough decision, but after traveling for eight hours in the back of a van, I wasn't ready to go home without trying the water and neither was my crewmate, so we shoved off into the frigid grey river.

We had a reasonable start and made passable headway (at least for a boat that was grossly overpowered in those conditions and virtually without capability to reduce the canvas)... until we hit the top mark. The wind decided to show us who was really in control just as we gybed around the mark and I can still see the le'ward rail dipping deeper and deeper into the river as the water flowed thick over the gunn'l til there was no more gunn'l or cockpit or anything else solid to see... That moment of knowing just seemed to last forever from the time that there was nothing below us but water and sails until we were floating in it trying to remember how to breathe and then how to swim. (Cold water -- if you've never tried it, don't!)

I'm sure I won't mind sinking in public as much as I'd mind repeating that particular performance! It was a lot less fun to experience than it is to remember!

kotori

I can't say I've ever intentionally scuttled myself either, but there have been a few times when I've launched my ship with so much damage that I'm not wondering whether I'll make it back to port or not but whether I'll make it TO MY TARGET.

Al, I think you'll much prefer sinking to capsizing in a frigid river. You'll still get that infinitely long moment of knowing, but you won't get the cold wet swim part unless your recovery float fails to deploy. And even then, you can probably bribe one of the younger members (like me!) to go swimming instead. A whole medium or large pizza goes a long way towards getting your ship back safely

Al Stein

Well, that's comforting -- I'm certainly willing to spring for pizza when appropriate!

For a recovery float, do you just make a part of the superstructure boyant and attach it by some strong chord, or is there an art/science to it?

johnmCA72

I make the whole superstructure the float. I've used smaller parts in the past, & they're prone to getting hung up. Smaller parts can get shot off, deploying line & forcing a halt to the festivities. I figure that the superstructure needs to come off anyway, so that I can get access to the gas, batteries, etc. inside. Being large, it isn't easy to shoot off. Also, being a large buoyant object, it floats free pretty easily even if the ship doesn't go down level.

JM

kotori

Floating is a mystical art. Some ships are pretty good at it, while others couldn't if they tried. Building recovery floats is a mystical art, too.

From my observations, there are three different major designs of recovery floats. I call these designs the "hidden hatch", the "large superstructure", and the "deck hatch" float. Each of them operates on different principles, with different degrees of success.

First on the list is the "hidden hatch" float. This usually consists of a small, buoyant object tied up with string, and stuffed into a little box built into the superstructure. It could be a small fishing bobber hidden in a smokestack, or a chunk of foam inside a deckhouse, or just about anything else. These floats depend entirely upon luck to deploy. Roll a die every time you sink, and your float will deploy on a 6. There is no consistency whatsoever, and even the slightest obstruction will guarantee failure. AVOID THIS FLOAT DESIGN AT ALL COSTS. you'll be glad you did. It was originally popular 15-20 years ago, and only a handful of buffoons still even attempt this one.

Next on the list is the type of float John described, the "large superstructure" float. The large superstructure float differs from the hidden hatch float primarily in its size. As its name implies, the large superstructure float is significantly larger than a hidden hatch float. It generally consists of 50% or more of the entire superstructure. The bridge of a liberty ship would be perfect for use as a large superstructure float. It's big, buoyant, and sturdy. Build it out of balsa or foam, then plate it with plywood or plastic to make it bulletproof. When the ship sinks, the buoyancy of the float is enough to tear it free of most obstructions, and often floats right off the ship as the water reaches it. Two good examples of the large superstructure float in action is here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSU8nQ7o0u4
I should also point out that this video shows a "hidden hatch" float in action, too. See if you can spot it.

The last type of float is what I call the "deck hatch" float. The deck hatch float is made from a section of deck, usually at the bow or stern, that floats off when the ship sinks. The deck hatch float operates on a completely different principle than the hidden hatch or large superstructure float, in that it does not use buoyancy to deploy. When a ship sinks, it often drags a large bubble of air down with it. This bubble of air collects in the highest part of the ship (whichever sinks last) and leaks out through whatever openings it can find. The deck hatch float uses the power of that air bubble to push the float off the ship. This almost always happens on or near the surface of the water, so the float encounters almost no obstructions on its way up, and the buoyancy of the wooden deck is enough to hold it on the surface. Reliable deployment of this float requires the ship to consistently sink by either the bow or stern, and some skippers intentionally place foam inside their ships to control how the ship goes down. There is one particular japanese oiler in my club that sinks by the stern. It has a large block of foam in the bow, so that as it sinks the bow is more buoyant than the stern. Its float is very reliable, and is actually the one that showed me how this style of float works. Unfortunately I don't have any videos of this float in action []

king5323

How long are these ships?

Paul

johnmCA72

Victory Ship: 455'3"l x 62'0"b x 28'6"d - in 1:144 scale that comes out to 37-15/16"

Liberty Ship: 441'6"l x 57'0"b x 27'8"d - in 1:144 scale that comes out to 36-25/32"

JM

Graft Zeppelin

I have 2 Convoy ships that are realy tiny, and yes I thought that size was an asset but then a battle ship one shooted me. I solved the problem by taking a batle ship bilge pump and placing it into my boat I hid it inside the superstructure and it had to take 50 rounds before it went down.