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Old 03-10-2008, 01:17 AM
  #1  
subcaptian
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Default combat submarines

can anyone post videos of their/and/or friends combat sub at a battle?
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Old 03-10-2008, 08:35 AM
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Default RE: combat submarines

Not a lot of combat subs out there to battle. Especially in 1/144. Kind of hard to video, as well, as the whole point of having a sub is to be hidden from view. However, that said, I wouldn't mind deeing such video, if it exists, myself.

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Old 03-10-2008, 01:28 PM
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Default RE: combat submarines

Here's the Red October lining up for a shot on the Nautilus (Verne's creation, not Rickover's).

JM
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Old 03-10-2008, 02:10 PM
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Default RE: combat submarines

can you fire torps on surface?
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Old 03-10-2008, 03:19 PM
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Default RE: combat submarines

I believe most (of those few that exist) do fire their torps while surfaced (at least partially). Remember only about 1" below the waterline of combat ships is required to be penetrable. If your torps are in scale position, you almost have to be at least partially surfaced to get penetration. nless you are shooting at an upward angle, which is verboten by the rules.

When you bone up on the rules, and attend a few battles, it becomes more obvious how (1) truly difficult and (2) combat innefective, generally that subs currently are in the hobby - especially at 1/144 scale.

You might want to read the introductory article on model warship combat at:
[link=http://www.ntxbg.org/articles/servo20051rcmw.pdf]www.ntxbg.org/articles/servo20051rcmw.pdf[/link] on the North Texas Battle Group web site (www.ntxbg.org).

Cheers,

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Old 03-10-2008, 05:38 PM
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Default RE: combat submarines

German Type VII U-boat firing a salvo on a 1/72 RC Gato in deep water:

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Old 03-10-2008, 05:39 PM
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Default RE: combat submarines

Look closely, it's a perfect hit!!
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Old 03-10-2008, 06:34 PM
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Default RE: combat submarines

I happen to have seen submarines in action in the WWCC, fought with and against them, and even been sunk by them once (friendly fire incident, I'd rather not go into details [:@]). They are very difficult to build and operate. Even when they work, their most powerful weapon is their aura of fear causing panic and confusion in the opposing team. It isn't common for a submarine to score a hit, though a hit usually is followed by a sink. There are some photos in the WWCC gallery you may find interesting.

[link=http://www.westernwarshipcombat.com/gallery/album27/I_400]I-400[/link] running after the 2005 Campaign Game.

[link=http://www.westernwarshipcombat.com/gallery/album58/IMG_7871]Giussano[/link] is hit once by I-400 in 2006, and hides near the Axis harbor, until she is [link=http://www.westernwarshipcombat.com/gallery/album58/IMG_7909]sunk[/link] by a devastating second hit by I-400. [link=http://www.westernwarshipcombat.com/gallery/album58/IMG_7914]I-400[/link] is then chased back home by the Adm Scheer. This is the [link=http://www.westernwarshipcombat.com/gallery/album58/IMG_7961]damage[/link] to Giussano.

In 2007, the I-401 waslaunched, but didn't have powerful enough motors and couldn't get enough speed to dynamically dive. It selflessly sacrificed itself to save (accidentally made itself an easier target than) Spahkreuzer, and was sunk with the following [link=http://www.westernwarshipcombat.com/gallery/album60/Battle_243]damage[/link].

Since submarines are so rare, I would recommend looking at these videos to get a better idea of what model warship combat usually entails: [link=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvugEmj3pO0]1[/link], [link=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSU8nQ7o0u4]2[/link], [link=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLQO3-0o0DU]3[/link], [link=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hIWhMLHhTA]4[/link], [link=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZjiaYk08yE]5[/link], [link=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WU-AsnnbksQ]6[/link].
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Old 03-11-2008, 12:12 AM
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Default RE: combat submarines

When I step up from My kilo, I would like to make a submarine that can fire torps.
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Old 03-11-2008, 07:14 AM
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Default RE: combat submarines

Then go for it, if you are looking for a scale, cool looking, gee whiz, demonstration feature.

However, if you are looking for torps to use in combat, you need to first find a combat club you want to battle it in, and then follow their ruleset. Those combat clubs that allow torps simulate them with 1/4" balls fired out of a tube by co2. If you want to do something other than that, you will need to build it and demonstrate your functioning system to the club, and it may or may not win the hearts and minds of the club.

Keep in mind, first of all, safety. Second, and I highly recommend this, go to some battles and see what is involved. It makes no sense to design a weapons system based on guesses and speculation when you can design one based on observed field conditions.

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Old 03-11-2008, 01:24 PM
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Default RE: combat submarines

this is what I had in mind. put this in your address browser. http://www.geocities.jp/uboat_kit/ub...edo_1min_l.mpg
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Old 03-11-2008, 06:44 PM
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Default RE: combat submarines

Thats very cool! I've never seen any video of it, and the photos just can't compare. However, it is not what we use in model warship combat. We simulate torpedoes using "torpedo cannons," which are basically the same as a non-reloading battleship cannon firing 1/4" steel ball bearings, and are only effective through about 6" of water. The video you showed is of a larger scale submarine with hollow torpedoes filled with pressurized air and launched from the tube. The pressurized air continues to propel the torpedo through the water and leaves a bubble trail out beyond 10 feet (I've heard out to 20-30 feet). It is designed for show, not for actual combat use against ships with thin balsa wood sides that are designed to fight and sink. Model SSBNs use the same system to simulate launching a missile while submerged. There is information on the web about it, I have seen it before but would need to poke around a bit to find it again before I can provide you links.
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Old 03-11-2008, 09:59 PM
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Default RE: combat submarines

Well, kotori, they can be for combat, and actually be more effective then your "torpedo cannons". If made right, they can have astounding range and hit with alot of force. If you put it on a larger sub, you could put a camera on it and make it super accurate. of course, thats aways down my road of submarines.
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Old 03-12-2008, 12:38 PM
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Default RE: combat submarines

Also, if you really wanted to get woild and out-of-budget, then buy a LARGE SSBN and make the missiles glide toward a target and explode like a shotgun blast, damaging all the ships around the blast radius.
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Old 03-12-2008, 12:40 PM
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Default RE: combat submarines

I would call it, "RCCCG multiple burst missile." RCCCG stands for RC computer controlled glide.
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Old 03-12-2008, 08:55 PM
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Default RE: combat submarines


ORIGINAL: subcaptian

Well, kotori, they can be for combat, and actually be more effective then your "torpedo cannons". If made right, they can have astounding range and hit with a lot of force. If you put it on a larger sub, you could put a camera on it and make it super accurate. of course, thats aways down my road of submarines.
More effective how? Specifics please (not "maybe if" speculations). If you have read up on the history of tubular (torpedo shaped torps) used in RC Model Warship Combat, you will find that they tend to plug their own holes, and are far less effective, in general.

You are able to fit a steerable RC device with video feedback all in the .15" diameter (scale) or .25" diameter (allowed) tube about 2-3" long? This I really want to see. It is perhaps possible, but I am pretty sure the nanoengineering required is beyond the capabilities of the average hobbiest.

I think you way overestimate the range and effectiveness based on simple physics - not enough mass and inertia to penetrate if electric powered.

And then there are the control issues. If you are watching a video screen and truing to navigate a torp through water with a foot or so visibility, who is minding the con for the sub?

As for the missiles, please remember the time-frame limitations (there were no ballistic missle subs before 1946 were there?), and the fact that the rules specify no firing of anything above the horizontal, and no pyrotechnics allowed, etc. - missles 'tain't happening in RC Model Warship Combat in any club I am aware of. Not that it would be any use - the decks and superstructure can be shot up all you like - it doesn't score points nor sink ships.

Again, o strongly suggest you attend a couple of battles to see what goes on and the ground-rules before you design a weapons system, (even in fantasy) that doesn't meet your needs (putting holes in and sinking ships). Regardless of your sub experience, it may not amount to much help in this arena unless you learn the ropes here a tad more thoroughly than you apparently already have.

Cheers,

Wreno
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Old 03-12-2008, 10:51 PM
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Default RE: combat submarines

what I meant by a camera, and I could do THIS with my kilo, is make a separete WTC for a camrea and rechargeble batteries and transmitter in the sail. Also, those are not electric torps. They are fired by compressed air or CO2. This would cost WAY too much, but make a 1/50 or larger scale submarine of like an Ohio and make the missiles have someone else man them. my idea is that the missiles would have their own CO2 tank inside the to propel a small, uh... "container" full of ball bearings.

Then a servo would break an end cap and this is how it gets in the air: if any of you have shot off model rockets, they have a firing device, not a lit fuse, right? Well, a compressed air unit would store up a HUGE amount of air and launch it 3 feet from the surface(the missile would be kind of heavy). then, in a waterproof compartment, a servo activates a launch mechanism and acitvates the rocket motor. this is after it breaches the surface. It is true that more than 1 person is needed for these subs, right? So in RC more than 1 person is needed also. but the subdriver, or captian would control the launch of the missile, but not rocket activation.

Torps would not be guided, just needed to be caefully aimed through a camera in the sail. The cool thing about this sub is that my kilo will weigh at most 20 lbs, probably less. This thing would weigh several hundered pounds and would be able to do a "true" emergyncy surface. Imagine it: 200-300 pound submarine breaching surface, leaps out of the water, and comes down with a tremendous splash. It would need more thn 1 driver because of the 2 trimm tanks, not just the normal dive ballast tanks. It would need a good name like "Leviathen" or "Kracken" because of its uncanny ability to bring down a ship.

No. the missiles are NOT pyrotechnics, they operate off the same factors as the rest of the guns.
Yes. It is out of normall WW-2 era.
The best thing of all is that with an onboard camera on this could have a retactable antenna like a towable hydrophone cable, allowing for long-range dives.


One problem: power.
Gas or huge electric motor?
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Old 03-12-2008, 11:13 PM
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Default RE: combat submarines

missile time-frame.

1.Launched from tube in back of sail.

2.Speeds through however much needed water to breack surface.

3.Breaks surface.

4.Missile control remote person activates rocket.

5. Rocket shoots into the air.

6. Missile falls.

7. Missile operator fire the ball-bearing tube launch.

8. Ball-bearings shower the ground at more than 500fps.

9. The BBs rip through the deck and slice through the bottom like hot butter.

10. ship sinks.

These 4 missiles would have a radius of about 6ft. and would be deadly to ALL ships in blast radius.
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Old 03-12-2008, 11:32 PM
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Default RE: combat submarines


ORIGINAL: subcaptian

Also, if you really wanted to get woild and out-of-budget, then buy a LARGE SSBN and make the missiles glide toward a target and explode like a shotgun blast, damaging all the ships around the blast radius.
Now THAT's got me more than a little worried. The game balance issues alone would almost instantly make any surface ship on the pond obsolete (not good) and once you add in the safety issues of explosive-propelled projectiles, you've got a recipe for disaster. Stay away from missiles, please.

Back on the subject of torpedoes, there are several obstacles you would need to overcome. First is the impacting force. You need to get the torpedo to hit the target hard enough to punch through its balsa wood hull. Balsa wood may be weak stuff, but it's not paper, and it is quite capable of resisting ship-to-ship collisions and rams. From watching the video you dug up, it looks like those torpedoes are NOT high-velocity. They would most likely bounce off. And worst of all, they exit the tubes at a very low velocity, which practically guarantees a non-penetration at close range. Which brings us to the next obstacle, which is...
accuracy. You will be standing on shore, your submarine will be 20-50 feet away from you, your target will probably be 10 feet or less away from that, and your target will most likely not allow you to sight directly along your submarine to assist your aiming. Most people have a hard enough time hitting a target that's 6 feet from their ship, and that's with years of practice. That's why most cannonfire takes place at under 6 feet range. Compounding the accuracy issue is the fact that gas-propelled torpedoes travel relatively slowly through the water. You can't just aim at your target and expect to hit (like most ship cannons), you have to lead your target. Anyway, on to the third obstacle, which is...
safety. Current RC warship combat rules about safety are quite clear and inflexible about what is and isn't allowed. One of the requirements is that all containers for pressurized liquid gas (like CO2 and propel) be professionally manufactured. Another requirement is that all weapon systems operate on 150 PSI of gas or less, and pass a safety penetration test before every battle. And then there is always the concern of whoever goes swimming for your submarine when (eventually) it gets sunk: if your torpedoes can penetrate balsa after travelling through 10 feet or more of water, how safe will the swimmer be when he goes after your sub?

I'm not trying to discourage you. Far from it, in fact. I just want you to have a realistic appraisal of the challenge you'll be facing. I've thought about the very same things you've mentioned ever since I joined this wonderful sport 5 years ago, and I still don't have a way to combine "for-show" torpedoes with "for-combat" torpedo-cannons. If you can, that's great! I'd love to see submarines become more combat-effective.
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Old 03-13-2008, 12:44 AM
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Default RE: combat submarines

what I mean is if it was big enough to put a minature air compressor in it, and if that didn't propel the torp enough, then WHAT WOULD?? Again, as said before: the missiles are not pyrotechnic. They use an onboard CO2 system to propel the cannister away from the missile and shower the water with bbs. Heres a cut away.
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Old 03-13-2008, 12:45 AM
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Default RE: combat submarines

the 2 ovals represent the canister and the top breakes away and the cannister and BBs fall to the water.
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Old 03-13-2008, 12:53 AM
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Default RE: combat submarines

what I mean is if it was big enough to put a minature air compressor in it, and if that didn't propel the torp enough, then WHAT WOULD??
what I meant was in the sub to charge compessed air into the torp tube.
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Old 03-13-2008, 01:29 AM
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Default RE: combat submarines

I see several options at the moment: I can tell you its impossible, I can be silent until you get bored, or I can help you explore the matter until we both have a better idea what is possible and what isn't. I don't think I can stop your imagination from running wild, and being silent is just rude, so I think I'd like to help you find out more about a "for-show" torpedo or maybe even make one. This way, we all learn something new, and you may get a very cool torpedo set for your next boat (whatever it may be). Since I don't think any of us knows exactly how to build a launcher like in the video you linked to, I would suggest that the first step be to find out more about how it works. You can then build a prototype to experiment with, and add bb cannons, computer guidance, and video cameras after we have the basic "dumb" torpedo built. By taking the first step, you will get a better idea how challenging subsequent steps will be. Start by searching the web for information. I have seen pages in the past with diagrams and other information about the torpedoes. I'll take a look around on Thursday or Friday when I get some time, but start by checking out some links from [link=http://www.rc-sub.com/links.html]here[/link] and doing Yahoo and Google searches.
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Old 03-13-2008, 02:06 AM
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Default RE: combat submarines

I know HOW to build a launcher, just, I never ahve built one.
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Old 03-13-2008, 02:09 AM
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Default RE: combat submarines

you need the launch tube, preferably brass tubing. you need a butterfly valve thats watertight. you need a CO2 tank for the launcher. the hard part is making a sealing torpedo launch door.
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