1Way

I’d like a traditional wing+tail novice airplane that would approach the following wish list.
My first plane would be:
[ul][*]a somewhat large (park flyer), [*]perhaps a 50+ inch wingspan,[*]electric powered, [*]durable,[*]have 4chnl full house controls,[*]fairly capable of handling light winds, [*]and flies somewhat gentile and forgiving.[/ul] I will have plenty, lots, and oodles, of RC (simulated) stick time from Real Flight G2 prior to flying, so I was “hoping” to get into something “slightly” more capable than a smallish, dull performing, 3 channel, trainer.

Suggestions for plans for this type of plane would be much appreciated. Also, here are some pics of the closest planes I’ve found so far, the first two are "T-52" (=52" wingspan) and the last two are the "Big T" with a 72" wingspan, they are from http://www.jkaerotech.com
They are made of solid pink foam insulation, and use strapping tape and coroplast for support and added protection.

Captain351

All those specs are nice but if you want to learn to fly using a spad then you want to build a Debonair [link=http://www.spadtothebone.com/SPAD/Debonair/]http://www.spadtothebone.com/SPAD/Debonair/[/link]. It's a quick easy build and tough as hell. The fact that even if you bury it in the ground you can build another in a day will make you much less hesitant to try things a little more advanced and in no time at all you will be fling on your own.

I tried to learn to fly for 2 years before a built a Deb. As soon as I got it in the air I loved it and soloed with it a month later. I still find it enjoyable to fly.

I would recommend that you use a HOR Dihedral wing or the wing from the Spadet which is the best. Both can be found at: [link=http://www.spadtothebone.com/]http://www.spadtothebone.com/[/link]. I would also reccomend that you use 2 aileron servos. I had flutter problems when trying to use one servo located in the center of the wing.

1Way

Captain351 – Thanks, very nice and intriguing flight testimony. I had just found those links myself last night, been loving all the many designs offered, great stuff.

How much AUW? What would it take to electrify that plane?

Captain351

Weight should come in around 5 to 6 pounds so you want a strong .46 pulling it. I recommend a Thunder Tiger Pro .46 or a GMS .47. The GMS may take a little more tweaking to get it running good.

An electric setup that would equal the power of a good .46 would cost at least 5 times that of the .46. It would also require a lot of specialized knowledge that you may not be able to find in just any R/C Club. It should be very easy to find somebody to help you get your glow engine running.

When you are trying to learn to fly you don't need to make things any more complicated then necessary. Concentrate on learning to fly not on how to make some untried component work properly.

P.S. Spads tend to be a little heavy in comparison to other planes of the same size. Some people see this as a bad thing but I appreciate the fact that it makes them great for windy days.

Many times have I showed up at my local flying field and found a bunch of guys hovering in the club house because they thought it was too windy to fly. I just pull out a Spad and go for it.

1Way

Captain351 - Thanks, I am determined to stay electric, will consider other planes then. Maybe I'll have to end up going with a somewhat more dense foamy plan.

Captain351

Not to be nosy but why are you determined to fly only electric. I fly both and think that if you limit yourself to one or the other you are missing out on a lot of fun.

Electrics are fun but are usually very fragile and the damage can sometimes be difficult to repair without buying new parts. These are not traits that I associate with a good first plane. Please believe me when I say that you will crash many times before you achieve the ability to take off and land reliably. You don't want each crash to require money to be spent on a new plane or parts.

Nothing will resist damage like a Spad (Some Foamies May Come Close.). I cartwheeled my deb down the runway one day while I was trying to learn to land. It made at lest 3 flips before it came to a stop. One of the wing tips dug a hole 4 inches deep and about 12 inches long in the runway. The only damage the plane sustained was broken rubber bands and a lot of mud caked in the end of the wing. I flew that plane 3 more times that day and soloed on it 2 weeks later.

Nobody who saw the crash could believe the plane survived to fly again that day. I don't believe there is any other type of plane that could have survived that crash much less without damage.

Good Luck with whatever you choose.

1Way

Captain351 - Electric is less messy, way quieter, more flexible (indoors and out), and I am only limiting myself to electric for my first several planes. We have a local gym fly-in twice a month, and once you buy a battery setup with charger, it only makes sense to do electric for a while.

I’m not going to get any sort of “standard electric plane” of the likes you seem to have in mind. You should have remembered that I came here in the SPAD forum seeking foamy or SPAD plan assistance, so I’m confused why you think that electric is so chinsey compared to glow and do not represent the entire plane. Plus I hope to stay away from gearboxes altogether with the new higher torque “outer rotor” motors. So I will go rugged built, but I also will be without the fumy smell, the greasy fuel residue, the much louder noise, and the more restricted flying areas. Quite efficient electric will do nicely I think, especially indoors and modest winds. I will get a lightweight slow stick of some sort before going indoors though.


So, the question remains
Do you know of any airplane plans that have about a 4’ wing span at perhaps 2-2.5 lbs AUW, that might be good for a first plane, or like the wish list of in my first post?


I also like the following designs but they are certainly too advanced and quick handling for a beginner. Also I included a conceptual plan I drew up in TurboCad that is loosely based of the ideas of those planes plus the “T-52”. It’s got a 48” wingpan and is 32” long from the very tip to tail. First plane I ever drew, the tail looks terrible to me, but I did all that from my own imagination. I would change the tail for sure.

I’d probably incorporate some dihedral in the wings like the “Big T”, but it’s supposed to be a slower moving plane because of it’s somewhat thick and long wings.

Captain351

Well I will give you credit you seem to know whats involved far better than most newbees.

My only criticism of electrics stems from the fact that my club has seen a rash of young pilots showing up to fly their new GWS Warbird as their first plane. You seem to know better than that.

Several of my favorite electrics have come from Northeast Sailplane [link=http://www.nesail.com/]http://www.nesail.com/[/link]. Unfortunately none of them are what you are looking for but they have a lot of planes that might be, check them out.

1Way

Thank you kindly for your responsiveness and taking interest. BTW, all 3 pictures I submitted in my last post came from NES (grin), the “Trick 1000” is the nice big plane w/the lady, the “Music Bubble” and the “Eagle”. The Eagle pic was from a forum poster during the build. So I am somewhat familiar with their offerings, and so far, except for the combat wings in general, and foreign lands like Europe, NES seemS to have one of the largest collections of foam planes, although 98% of them are not for beginners.

It appears that either I will end up building my own, or buying the Trick 1000 and pray that I can modify it into being a slower flying trainer. It seems to me that my options are to (1) make the wingspan longer by adding dihedral banked wingtips, or (2) make the wing profile thicker thus more slow and draggy, or (3) place a modest "top mounted" biplane wing for adding “high placed” lift (flight stablizing), and also lowering the wing loading. Or do a combo of those options. It is frustrating, but I can not seem to find anyone to lend me a hand with the best way of doing such a modification. I guess I’ll have to focus on the foam guys for a while for plans and mod suggestions.

pcjohnson_ohio

You can electrify pretty much any plane, if you are willing to spend the $$
A Brushless Motor with Li-Polys will do the job
You really need to design the plane around the power system not the other way around

Hobby Lobby's AXI 2820/12 and 12-14 volts will provide 300 watts and a pitch speed of 55-60 mph, which would fly the Deb, albeit sedately, if built lightly
(a 4s4p 8000 mah pack plus motor/controller weigh's ~2 lbs)
(I don't know if a bare Deb airframe could be built at 3 lbs)
But you are talking $600 without radio

or you could go with 12 NiMh 3000 mah cells and save $200

16 cells or 5s4p would give livelier performance but would add 1/2 pound and may require a different motor than above

Leave off as much heavy stuff as you can, like Landing gear, firewall, coro only fuse. Adding a few inches to the wingspan will help carry the weight.

The problem with scaling down coroplast designs is that 2mm coro weights about 60% of 4mm, but is a lot flimsier. For example, 4mm tail surfaces work fine on 40 size planes, but 2mm tails would be way too flexible for a 20 size plane. Plus many designs already use 2mm for the upper surface of the wing, so you can't go any thinner. I have seen some very simple, all 2mm coro plane for Speed 400, but were talking 30" span. 60" wing with 40 size engine seems to be the sweet spot for 4 mm coroplast planes

The success of spad's is high power with heavy building materials
The success of electrics is low to moderate power with with light building materials
These two facts makes electric spads especially difficult

[link=http://www.motocalc.com/]Motocalc[/link] can help with designing electric planes

[link=http://ezonemag.com/]Ezone[/link] is very helpful as well, especially their EFLT mailing list and their message board

If any of the above is gibberish, then do some reading
My 2 cents

Pete Johnson

1Way

Pete - I followed you, but don't think it's wrong to design the plane ahead of the motor when you have sufficient motor options. See, the weight of the plane is not yet known because this is a new construction method, so I can not bend the project around a predetermined motor, the specific motor must come after the design. Of course I will have in mind what is needed to pull a plane around that weighs in the projected weight zone, which is about 2.5 lbs.

But, one thing I did not understand, what is Deb? Ya lost me there. But then you said that the deb would cost like $600, and I’m thinking, oh man, I forgot to mention that I will be constructing the plane out of rugged bounce not break EPP foam sheeting plus stiff foam supports and carbon fiber spars, instead of just building an ARF or kit.

I am seeking assistance with the design. Really, I am.

Woodsy

From memory the FNS and a scaled down Debonair both all 2mm have been done in electric

1Way

Woodsy - A little more clarification please. What is an "FNS" and a "Debonair", and where can I fiind them?

Askalon

My Feedback: (1)

FNS is a Friday night Special and the Deb is well a Deb. The plans for both can be found under the originals link on [link=http://www.spadtothebone.com]Spadtothebone.com[/link]

1Way

Askalon, thanks for the clarification. I really like the simplicity or ease of construction of these models. Pretty neat stuff.

pcjohnson_ohio

Debonair = Deb

$300 = Lipoly 14v 8000 mah pack (or $100 for 12 cell NiMh pack)
$200 = 300 watt brushless motor and controller
$100 = charger
$600 total

$15 to build the debonair

Alot of money to equip a $15 dollar plane

PS I love this coro stuff, though. 2 sheets of coro, $5 of yardsticks, $2 of PVC fence post, a weedwacker engine and BOOM
...Giant scale plane for $100 plus radio, plus I can build the entire plane in less time it take to just to monote one plane
Very little mess as well

Pete

1Way

pcjohnson_ohio – Wow, ,,, thanks for putting that into perspective. I think I’ll stick to the $90 brushless outrunner and 48” wingspan 2 lb AUW EPP foam for my first electric. Hopefully I can get the charger for cheaper than that though, maybe I’ll have to consider NiMh instead of LiPo. Ugh, electric is expensive, but nice and convenient and quiet.

So, out of shear curiosity , how much is one of those weed whacker engines, how much power and thrust do they provide (fits what weight of plane with a 1.5:1 thrust to weight ratio, for unlimited vertical), and how much do they weigh?

pcjohnson_ohio

A 33cc ryobi weighs about 4 1/2 lbs and has the power of a 90 glow (maybe a little more)
You won't get a stock ryobi to hover a plane
you need a prop hub and motor mount and a little work to convert, maybe $40 for parts, plus weedwacker (garage sale?)
lighter if you remove the magneto and go with electronic ignition but this adds $150 or so
[link=http://www.rcuniverse.com/market/item.cfm?itemId=27631]Ryobi for Sale[/link]



Chain saw engines are more powerful but more expensive, harder to convert
With electronic ignition they approach the power/weight ratio of commercial engines

[link=http://home.midsouth.rr.com/slalomkid1972/spadcubtorkin.wmv]Chain saw SPAD hover[/link]

1Way

Maybe they need to start making brushless electric motors for powered hand tools, maybe those motors would work in these RC planes.

novabill

Do you have access to a hotwire to cut foam? If you use EPP foam, you can easily accomplish your goal. you probably wont have to use alot of CF to stiffen it either. EPP foam is expensive, but light and verry tuff.

1Way

novabill - No, not yet , but I soon enough will. I’ve download several plans to make one, and I have a supplier for EPP that seems like a good source with a good price. I only need a little bit though to last me for a long time.

I agree about the carbon fiber, it's rather salty stuff, I’d rather make do with an inexpensive version, and something that is very easy to build and repair if necessary. But I want to cut up the EPP into really thin sheets to be as light as possible for making the wing and the fuse. I'll probably use stiff polystyrene or fanfold to support the inside of the fuse in a way that will be light and also somewhat flexible. EPP is great stuff, it’s part skin, part structure, part body wide shock absorber! I can just see it now, I’ll get spoiled on this stuff and I wont even want to fly those nice looking fragile balsa planes... ... they look nice, their very expensive, and they are really light, but EPP survives crashes, balsa does not. ... EXCELLENT!!!