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  1. #151
    Jimmy Skids's Avatar
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    RE: Sams warbird racing

    Iron Dog,
    Thanks, my thoughts are very close indeed, but alas, I'm limited with how much time I can take to put my words into a post.

    Babe,
    I totally understand your thoughts/concerns on the issue and as one of the few on this thread who have made it to SAM's to race your input is very valid and appreciated. My post was focused more on getting more 2 stroke pilots to show to see if there should be changes. Until the CD's (of which I am not) see more pilot's at events looking for this type of change, it isn't going to happen. As Ollie stated, one of the benefits of SAM's racing is that the rules don't change. As the CD of the monthly OUTLAW event for 12 years running I can attest to the fact that minimal rules changes allow for a larger following by participants. Hopefully my words didn't cause any hard feelings.

    Jimmy Skids
    TEAM JR
    Spitfire Brotherhood #99
    Outlaw Racing CD 2001 to present

  2. #152
    Racewizard's Avatar
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    RE: Sams warbird racing

    Guy's I'm sorry to say that I have raced there maybe 6 times and don't know who both of you by site I apologize for that. I like the way the races are run, your club has spent alot of time and money with your timing operation for lap counting and breakout timing I applause your club for that. The way it appears to me for at least this season anyway I'm still going to race in the SILVER class with my 2 stroke engine. I do have friends that have race planes with 2 stroke engines that would like to race in the GOLD but don't feel they have much of a chance racing against YS engines with a smaller airframes. It seems all your rules are in favor of YS 115 engines. You have a breakoff of 515 square inches to a 119 size engine, and thats for 4 strokes, your not even allowed to run a YS 120 with 515 inch wing area. Now doesn't this sound like it's all in favor of this one engine?To run a 2 stroke 120 you get to add more inches to the wing, which usually will mean a larger and heavier plane, so how do you compete??
    Well thanks for letting me vent, no more said
    Walk softly but carry a big stick

  3. #153

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    RE: Sams warbird racing


    ORIGINAL: Racewizard

    Guy's I'm sorry to say that I have raced there maybe 6 times and don't know who both of you by site I apologize for that. I like the way the races are run, your club has spent alot of time and money with your timing operation for lap counting and breakout timing I applause your club for that. The way it appears to me for at least this season anyway I'm still going to race in the SILVER class with my 2 stroke engine. I do have friends that have race planes with 2 stroke engines that would like to race in the GOLD but don't feel they have much of a chance racing against YS engines with a smaller airframes. It seems all your rules are in favor of YS 115 engines. You have a breakoff of 515 square inches to a 119 size engine, and thats for 4 strokes, your not even allowed to run a YS 120 with 515 inch wing area. Now doesn't this sound like it's all in favor of this one engine?To run a 2 stroke 120 you get to add more inches to the wing, which usually will mean a larger and heavier plane, so how do you compete??
    Well thanks for letting me vent, no more said
    My point also. The rules were designed to fit a YS 63/70, 110-115 or 140 engines.
    400 sq inch wing is up to a .89 4 stroke lol is there even a .89? Now If I have a ".90" engine but measures out to a .89 can I use it as a FS.
    Now the OS 120 AX is less powerful than the YS115 40% and up nitro.
    Jimmy your statement about not changing the rules till you see racers at the events asking for the change.... lol you will not get racers there with these engines if not allowed. Why would someone build a plane they cannot fly?

    I know in the past the rules have changed a lot there. You banned nelson/Jett race engines with the must idle rule. I understand in the two stroke range you can still run a DF engine that idles but makes a great deal of power and is in the 170-180mph range past break out. Just for the two strokes rule it’s easy to change without beating your FS favorites. Just make it where all two strokes engines but are of side exhaust, carb and a production engine. None of these engines will out class a YS-115 on 65% nitro. It will allow me and others to buy a 120AX for 250 dollars and compete in the gold or silver race. The guys building planes now will not be out classed or now have a slower plane. If you don’t change the rules so be it fits your rules. I am just trying to increase the racing at my club with this change. The guys at my field would race and travel some if didn’t have to buy a YS 115 to even is close. It’s not about the money either.
    AMA # 126183
    Fly light, fly fast and fly low.

  4. #154

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    RE: Sams warbird racing

    By the way if rules dont change this year I will still race. Will you guys be mad if I win????? hehe
    AMA # 126183
    Fly light, fly fast and fly low.

  5. #155
    Jimmy Skids's Avatar
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    RE: Sams warbird racing


    ORIGINAL: Racewizard

    Guy's I'm sorry to say that I have raced there maybe 6 times and don't know who both of you by site I apologize for that. I like the way the races are run, your club has spent alot of time and money with your timing operation for lap counting and breakout timing I applause your club for that. The way it appears to me for at least this season anyway I'm still going to race in the SILVER class with my 2 stroke engine. I do have friends that have race planes with 2 stroke engines that would like to race in the GOLD but don't feel they have much of a chance racing against YS engines with a smaller airframes. It seems all your rules are in favor of YS 115 engines. You have a breakoff of 515 square inches to a 119 size engine, and thats for 4 strokes, your not even allowed to run a YS 120 with 515 inch wing area. Now doesn't this sound like it's all in favor of this one engine?To run a 2 stroke 120 you get to add more inches to the wing, which usually will mean a larger and heavier plane, so how do you compete??
    Well thanks for letting me vent, no more said
    Iron Dog ='s Ollie, Bronze and Silver racer flying scratch built airplanes but probably even better known for his after race beverages that he pours to whomever is in need.

    Jimmy Skids ='s Jim, Gold racer - Black Spitfires.... helps with score keeping, matrix, registration, and PA system.

    I have raced (and won) many seasons flying a 550 square inch wing on a 120 YS. I can break out with no problem, and I'm not running 65% nitro. My plane is a modified ARF, with a stock airfoil. As for how I compete, it is a lot of luck combined with the normal, blood sweat and tears. (and a GREAT CALLER)

    Jimmy Skids
    TEAM JR
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    Outlaw Racing CD 2001 to present

  6. #156

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    RE: Sams warbird racing

    Is there a limit on how low you can fly around the course? I try to stay around 10-15 feet off the ground.
    AMA # 126183
    Fly light, fly fast and fly low.

  7. #157
    Jimmy Skids's Avatar
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    RE: Sams warbird racing


    ORIGINAL: airraptor


    ORIGINAL: Racewizard

    Guy's I'm sorry to say that I have raced there maybe 6 times and don't know who both of you by site I apologize for that. I like the way the races are run, your club has spent alot of time and money with your timing operation for lap counting and breakout timing I applause your club for that. The way it appears to me for at least this season anyway I'm still going to race in the SILVER class with my 2 stroke engine. I do have friends that have race planes with 2 stroke engines that would like to race in the GOLD but don't feel they have much of a chance racing against YS engines with a smaller airframes. It seems all your rules are in favor of YS 115 engines. You have a breakoff of 515 square inches to a 119 size engine, and thats for 4 strokes, your not even allowed to run a YS 120 with 515 inch wing area. Now doesn't this sound like it's all in favor of this one engine?To run a 2 stroke 120 you get to add more inches to the wing, which usually will mean a larger and heavier plane, so how do you compete??
    Well thanks for letting me vent, no more said
    My point also. The rules were designed to fit a YS 63/70, 110-115 or 140 engines.
    400 sq inch wing is up to a .89 4 stroke lol is there even a .89? Now If I have a ''.90'' engine but measures out to a .89 can I use it as a FS.
    Now the OS 120 AX is less powerful than the YS115 40% and up nitro.
    Jimmy your statement about not changing the rules till you see racers at the events asking for the change.... lol you will not get racers there with these engines if not allowed. Why would someone build a plane they cannot fly?

    I know in the past the rules have changed a lot there. You banned nelson/Jett race engines with the must idle rule. I understand in the two stroke range you can still run a DF engine that idles but makes a great deal of power and is in the 170-180mph range past break out. Just for the two strokes rule it’s easy to change without beating your FS favorites. Just make it where all two strokes engines but are of side exhaust, carb and a production engine. None of these engines will out class a YS-115 on 65% nitro. It will allow me and others to buy a 120AX for 250 dollars and compete in the gold or silver race. The guys building planes now will not be out classed or now have a slower plane. If you don’t change the rules so be it fits your rules. I am just trying to increase the racing at my club with this change. The guys at my field would race and travel some if didn’t have to buy a YS 115 to even is close. It’s not about the money either.
    1. Rules were not designed around YS engines, the tables were adapted and ranges set trying to keep and equal amount in jumps between different size motors and wing areas.... in fact, when I reworked the wing area charts, the 70 and 115 were not in production.

    2. .89?..... the range of CC is just that a range (in other words read it as 0-.89, 90-.99, etc, etc).... new motors are coming out all the time and the chart was redesigned with the unknown in mind. Pick a motor, figure what range it is in, and then you can determine your wing area.

    3.Very few if any are flying 65% nitro. it just doesn't work well with the YS motors.

    4. The changes discussed would clearly only be an issue with regards to the gold class. Most racers wouldn't enter Gold to start off so the point of not getting new racers with the current rules is minor if even an issue at all. My comment was that if there is interest, and if those interested show said interest while at an event, I'm sure the CD's would listen. I do not CD races so I have little to do with new rules being approved. I have been more than willing to present the idea of making changes to the CD's and have done so already, I am more than willing to work on a rules revisions that seem to benefit the majority of pilots if there is enough interest, I am more than willing to be the sounding board for logical and rational discussions on the subject for those that are interested. But so far it has only been a couple of pilots. A couple won’t get it done. You, I , We would need more of a showing to constitute any changes.

    5. Rules changes about engines that must idle were done before my time. However, these changes were done in the interest of safety. Nowhere are Jett or Nelson engines banned in the current version of the rules. Keep in mind here that the major intent of the SAM Warbird rules is SAFETY. I will take a moment to express that SAFETY is extremely important to SAM and its members. This type of racing is inherently dangerous and we all have to be very prudent with how these events are carried out. It is one thing if you are a visitor to the club and there is a safety issue, it is totally different if you are a member and lose your home field.

    6. We all desire to go fast and turn left. Let’s try to work within the current rules and do our best to try to encourage others to enjoy what we already know is great fun.

    Geez that took awhile.
    Jimmy Skids
    TEAM JR
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    Outlaw Racing CD 2001 to present

  8. #158
    Jimmy Skids's Avatar
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    RE: Sams warbird racing


    ORIGINAL: airraptor

    Is there a limit on how low you can fly around the course? I try to stay around 10-15 feet off the ground.
    Currently not in the rules, however, may be put back in. We used to have a something to the effect of having to stay above the pylons while on the course. I think the pylons are about 15 feet high.

    This is one of the minor changes being discussed for this year.

    Jimmy Skids
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    Outlaw Racing CD 2001 to present

  9. #159
    Iron Dog's Avatar
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    RE: Sams warbird racing



    Quoting Jimmy Skids' points, highlighting important points he makes (as I see it), and adding related follow-on thoughts:

    1. Rules were not designed around YS engines, the tables were adapted and ranges set trying to keep and equal amount in jumps between different size motors and wing areas.... in fact, when I reworked the wing area charts, the 70 and 115 were not in production.

    2. .89?..... the range of CC is just that a range (in other words read it as 0-.89, 90-.99, etc, etc).... new motors are coming out all the time and the chart was redesigned with the unknown in mind. Pick a motor, figure what range it is in, and then you can determine your wing area.
    This is for fairness and CONSISTENCY OVER TIME.

    3.Very few if any are flying 65% nitro. it just doesn't work well with the YS motors.

    Furthermore, I do not think that you can fairly compare a stock 2-stroke leisurely running on 20% nitro to an often highly modified 4-stroke burning itself out on 65% nitro. (Many of the fastest pilots make engine modifications to get this extra speed; and, not too many run this high a nitro %. The fastest are also flying custom airframe designs . . . or at least custom airfoil and wing designs; and design factors considerably in their speed.)

    The reality is that we racers are a crafty, competitive bunch. It may not take long for someone to find a way to modify the OS 120 or another manufacturer’s future offering to run a tuned-pipe, handle higher nitro, etc., suddenly this engine could outclass the YS. Then what, the rules get changed back again? Let's face it, those that feel they need “an edge” will simply invest in whatever configuration and modifications are necessary to give them this edge; and, the deeper one's pockets, the further he can go. Some are willing to burn-up their engines every couple of races, glowplugs every round, etc. Personally, I can't afford to. This will always seem somewhat unfair to those of us who do not have deep pockets, but the reality is that some will always find a way to exploit any advantage we can find. Taking a realistic look at myself, I'm no less guilty of this when I concentrate on better airframe design to better compete with the "engine guys." It is the nature of competition for each of us to play to his strengths.

    SAM is trying to be consistent, with relatively few rules changes, despite an unknown future of technological innovations and offerings within the hobby industry.


    4. The changes discussed would clearly only be an issue with regards to the gold class. Most racers wouldn't enter Gold to start off so the point of not getting new racers with the current rules is minor if even an issue at all. My comment was that if there is interest, and if those interested show said interest while at an event, I'm sure the CD's would listen. I do not CD races so I have little to do with new rules being approved. I have been more than willing to present the idea of making changes to the CD's and have done so already, I am more than willing to work on a rules revisions that seem to benefit the majority of pilots if there is enough interest, I am more than willing to be the sounding board for logical and rational discussions on the subject for those that are interested. But so far it has only been a couple of pilots. A couple won’t get it done. You, I , We would need more of a showing to constitute any changes.

    5. Rules changes about engines that must idle were done before my time. However, these changes were done in the interest of safety. Nowhere are Jett or Nelson engines banned in the current version of the rules. Keep in mind here that the major intent of the SAM Warbird rules is SAFETY. I will take a moment to express that SAFETY is extremely important to SAM and its members. This type of racing is inherently dangerous and we all have to be very prudent with how these events are carried out. It is one thing if you are a visitor to the club and there is a safety issue, it is totally different if you are a member and lose your home field.

    6. We all desire to go fast and turn left. Let’s try to work within the current rules and do our best to try to encourage others to enjoy what we already know is great fun.
    Well stated, Jim!

    Geez that took awhile. (Yes, it does! And, many of these points have been made already. After all that has already been explained and discussed, if someone still wants to believe that the rules were written with a bias, then I don’t believe that anything you, I, or anyone else says, will dissuade them from their viewpoint.)

    Jimmy Skids (Ollie)
    [end quote]
    WARNING: High-nitro fumes cause an unusual form of mental debilitation resulting in excess expenditures on racing airplanes.

  10. #160
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    RE: Sams warbird racing

    Piping in.

    After going over the wing engine charts I think they are resonable and I could compete with success with any two or four stroke combo and I may have to try a few different engines.

    Only one thing I dissagree on is the minimum wing area for the Ys 1.15 as this was the wing area set up for the ys 1.10 when it replaced theYs.91.
    The ys 1.15 was shoe horned in when they discontinued the YS 1.10. I know they didnt want to change anything at the time as YS was doing major changes to there engine line, but in my personal opinion that wing area should be now increcsed to fit the engine size and level the playing field.

    From my calculations this wing area should be 535 sq inches for the Ys 1.15 So in essence using the wing area for the Ys 1.10 has given the larger engine an unfair advantage.

    Yes I to would have to modify all my designs to fit this requirement and am completey fine with that.

    So my suggestion is to at least consider and discuss this at the next meeting for maybe 2014.

    Tim
    Who says scale warbirds have to be GIANT.

  11. #161
    tdstaf's Avatar
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    RE: Sams warbird racing

    Post edited
    Who says scale warbirds have to be GIANT.

  12. #162
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    RE: Sams warbird racing

    As with any type of event some things must change.

    I do remember a time when the 2 strokes dominated these events. 4 strokes were at a dissadvantage so they originally doubled the displacement then came the YS's.
    So I see they upped the 2 stroke displacement to 75% of the 4 stroke.
    I certainly appreciate that they have made an attempt to keep things equal and consistant.

    Also every one has to realise that when you want to compete in the top class. YOUR GOING TO HAVE TO SPEND MONEY! Your not going to drive a Yugo in a Formula
    One race....


    As with the quicke 500, it originally started with standard 2 stroke to be an inexpensive event but then entered the Jetts and Nelsons and things changed if I'im not mistaken?
    Who says scale warbirds have to be GIANT.

  13. #163
    Jimmy Skids's Avatar
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    RE: Sams warbird racing

    "3.Very few if any are flying 65% nitro. it just doesn't work well with the YS motors.

    Furthermore, I do not think that you can fairly compare a stock 2-stroke leisurely running on 20% nitro to an often highly modified 4-stroke burning itself out on 65% nitro. (Many of the fastest pilots make engine modifications to get this extra speed; and, not too many run this high a nitro %. The fastest are also flying custom airframe designs . . . or at least custom airfoil and wing designs; and design factors considerably in their speed.) "

    Iron Dog,
    Am I that slow? I haven't competed with a custom airframe, airfoil, and or wing..... YET.... 2013 will have some surprises from the Skids Racing Foundation. I'm not sure if Speed will like it or not, but 2012 may of marked the last season of the black Spitfire. Time will tell.

    Skids

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  14. #164
    Iron Dog's Avatar
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    RE: Sams warbird racing


    ORIGINAL: Jimmy Skids

    Iron Dog,
    Am I that slow? . . .

    Skids
    Oh Jim,

    Do I even have to say anything? (Pictures tend to speak for themselves.)

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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    WARNING: High-nitro fumes cause an unusual form of mental debilitation resulting in excess expenditures on racing airplanes.

  15. #165
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    RE: Sams warbird racing

    Are you sure Tommy isn't being lapped?
    \"You Can Teach...Monkeys To Fly Better Than That!\"

  16. #166
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    RE: Sams warbird racing


    ORIGINAL: pjakew

    Are you sure Tommy isn't being lapped?
    And I thought Jimmy would try to use that excuse!

    Positive. It is one of a series of pictures. In fact, earlier in the series, Jimmy was out ahead of Tommy. Tommy actually caught up and passed him! (Oh the shame!)

    WARNING: High-nitro fumes cause an unusual form of mental debilitation resulting in excess expenditures on racing airplanes.

  17. #167
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    RE: Sams warbird racing

    Our hobby is a great hobby there are many facets to it, scale,3D,pattern, glider and so on but for me I mostly like RACING it gets the adrenaline going and there's nothing like competiton and a good race amongest friends. I started racing approximately 30 years ago, started with Q500, T-34, formula one Giant Scale, early years of giant scale with the Pennzoil team, and what is called warbird .46 modified, have raced at my field the Tomcats, Madera, Lodi, Salinas,Fresno and at SAMS which I must say is one of the nicer and organized fields at least for racing. Been racing mostly local area's and I hold my own. Just to give you a little of my background.
    When you talk about Safety which is high on my priority list I'm right with you, you MUST be safe, there's no dought our hobby can be a dangerious one if not done with precautions and forsight. But for the life of me can someone tell me how much MORE UNSAFE is flying a 2 stroke plane with 515 square inches at 150 mph then a 4 stroke with the same wing area flying at 150 mph. What makes it more UNSAFE? because of the ENGINE??? Come on guys, lets make some sense out of this...

    Babe
    Walk softly but carry a big stick

  18. #168
    Jimmy Skids's Avatar
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    RE: Sams warbird racing


    ORIGINAL: Iron Dog


    ORIGINAL: Jimmy Skids

    Iron Dog,
    Am I that slow? . . .Β*

    Skids
    Oh Jim,

    Do I even have to say anything? Β*(Pictures tend to speak for themselves.)

    Ummmm that was my slower back up plane on a bad day. Don't worry, this was not the norm. But I was slow that day.
    Skids
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  19. #169
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    RE: Sams warbird racing


    ORIGINAL: Jimmy Skids


    ORIGINAL: Iron Dog


    ORIGINAL: Jimmy Skids

    Iron Dog,
    Am I that slow? . . .

    Skids
    Oh Jim,

    Do I even have to say anything? (Pictures tend to speak for themselves.)

    Ummmm that was my slower back up plane on a bad day. Don't worry, this was not the norm. But I was slow that day.
    Skids
    If you could only see the look on Trixie's face as she shakes her head................


  20. #170

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    RE: Sams warbird racing

    New rule:

    Wing area must be 500-700SQ"
    Engine any you want except turbines. (all engines must idle at 3,000 or less for 30 seconds)
    Weight 5 lbs -10 lbs
    Dont exceed break out time( dont fly extra long on the course to not break out. Pylon judge if flew to long)
    Must be a warbird that entered at reno or other (bendix) national air races
    WILL be inspected by CD before first race of the day and must demonstrate the ability fo fly the pylon course and be able land your plane.



    This way you can run what ever pleases you and you meet AMA waiver for your club. As long as you dont break out and dont fly long your good.
    Maybe add 5-10 seconds to the Gold time Or change to a "unlimited" lol
    AMA # 126183
    Fly light, fly fast and fly low.

  21. #171
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    RE: Sams warbird racing

    I think that given the current engines being used and the engines that could be used here is how I would like to see them grouped.



    2 stroke .45 to .59 grouped with 4 stroke .70 to .80

    2 stroke .60 to .91 grouped with 4 stroke .90 to 1.0

    2 stroke ..95 to 1.2 grouped with 4 stroke 1.1 to 1.2

    2 stroke 1.25 to 1.4 grouped with 4 stroke 1.25 to 1.8



    This would cover just about any engine someone may want to race with to the best of my knowledge and level the playing field between 2 and 4 strokes. This and keeping the range of wing area within 100 sq in. overall.

    This being said I do have to agree that this would affect ONLY gold class as it is IMO the only class that as of now is out of reach running a 2 stroke. So the bottom line question is: Will participation in gold class going to see enough of a increse to justify a rules change? I'm thinking we would need a minimum of 5 guys stepping up to run 2 strokes in gold to entertain the idea.

  22. #172
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    RE: Sams warbird racing

    It appears that NOBODY from SAM'S is going to reply. Have a wonderful Christmas everyone

    Babe
    Walk softly but carry a big stick

  23. #173
    Jimmy Skids's Avatar
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    RE: Sams warbird racing

    SAM's met last night to work on the events calendar. Once the dates are approved they will be posted on the SAM website. www.sacramento-rc-flyers.org

    No wing area changes were done for this year. Big changes are to allow the WW2 era and later piston powered Warbird type of trainer planes in the bronze class. Hopefully this brings out more pilots. It looks like there should be 5 races this year in the series. I really hope all who have been following this thread will try to make a few of the races.

    Jimmy Skids

    Merry Christmas all. May Santa leave a new racer or two under your tree.
    TEAM JR
    Spitfire Brotherhood #99
    Outlaw Racing CD 2001 to present

  24. #174

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    RE: Sams warbird racing

    The dates are already on SAMS website.

  25. #175
    Racewizard's Avatar
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    RE: Sams warbird racing

    Can someone from SAM's tell me how many feet are between pylons? I read the rules and either I missed it or it's not there
    Thanks
    Babe
    Walk softly but carry a big stick


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