Warbird Champioship Event
12-08-2014, 02:25 PM
#51
I have not heard of any other warbird racing, perhaps they have not heard of us either?
The new 2 pole event (Club 40) is of particular concern to what we want as some might think it opens the door for us, and perhaps it does, how ever It also takes the most precious commodity there TIME. What may have been an opportunity has been taken by that class. It will be a tough sell to convince the AMA officials more 2 pole is needed where 3 pole has been the focus for so long.
To make it happen at the Nats you need a sanctioned set of rules approved by the AMA
You need your own course workers and equipment ( we can all see a challenge here ar far as workers goes)
We need it to be seen as a vible alternative to what is already there, hence the use of a Champ Race like we are trying to start now
You also need kit manufacturers to see this a profitable branch of their production. Thx to Richard V and Airborne we have started that process.
Joe, Your presence there is already a given. Ddnt think I had to ask? Wouldnt be the same w/o you. Hopefully its close enough to you and there is no wedding conflict
The Lodi field is definately cool, just need workers.
My wife doesnt like racing as much as I do. She has traveed with me to Ohio, Kansas, AZ, Ca to watch the Giant Scale Racing, but not sure if she would go as she generally likes to go to watch and not work. It is imperative we get club members as a primary labor pool and relatives secondly and even pilots. I want my wife to enjoy racing not regret going. Other wives love working a course - mine just doesnt, and yes she has done it for me.
At this time id love to inject: wouldnt automated pylon judges be great? Technology is almost there. We looked at in the USRA and were close but had it dropped and is now coming back off the back burner.
Q500 is cool, I currently have 424 class I race around Utah about 3 times a year. great Planes saw the need and has continued its production, at a much higher price this year but it lets us see what they (manufacturers) will build what profitable.
The new 2 pole event (Club 40) is of particular concern to what we want as some might think it opens the door for us, and perhaps it does, how ever It also takes the most precious commodity there TIME. What may have been an opportunity has been taken by that class. It will be a tough sell to convince the AMA officials more 2 pole is needed where 3 pole has been the focus for so long.
To make it happen at the Nats you need a sanctioned set of rules approved by the AMA
You need your own course workers and equipment ( we can all see a challenge here ar far as workers goes)
We need it to be seen as a vible alternative to what is already there, hence the use of a Champ Race like we are trying to start now
You also need kit manufacturers to see this a profitable branch of their production. Thx to Richard V and Airborne we have started that process.
Joe, Your presence there is already a given. Ddnt think I had to ask? Wouldnt be the same w/o you. Hopefully its close enough to you and there is no wedding conflict
The Lodi field is definately cool, just need workers.
My wife doesnt like racing as much as I do. She has traveed with me to Ohio, Kansas, AZ, Ca to watch the Giant Scale Racing, but not sure if she would go as she generally likes to go to watch and not work. It is imperative we get club members as a primary labor pool and relatives secondly and even pilots. I want my wife to enjoy racing not regret going. Other wives love working a course - mine just doesnt, and yes she has done it for me.
At this time id love to inject: wouldnt automated pylon judges be great? Technology is almost there. We looked at in the USRA and were close but had it dropped and is now coming back off the back burner.
Q500 is cool, I currently have 424 class I race around Utah about 3 times a year. great Planes saw the need and has continued its production, at a much higher price this year but it lets us see what they (manufacturers) will build what profitable.
12-08-2014, 02:57 PM
#53
I really like the idea of having an " Ultimate Warbird Champion ". IMO that is a great start to getting some sort of national exposure which would lead to more organization. I think we all agree this is what is needed to increase participation nationwide and to get more manufacturer support ( larger selection of race ready ARF's ) The big hurtle is going to be establishing a set of national rules. Could we piggyback this as an addition to GSRA? Just throwing ideas out there. I'm not sure about it being a Nats event. Lots of racing already on the bill there and to be honest I don't see many traveling to Muncie myself included. From what I can see, warbird racing is mainly located in the Southwest. Would it be better trying to establish something closer to home? We can't get guys to drive from Sac to the bay area and vice versa. Then again if we were all flying the same format and rules maybe guys would be more willing to travel. If it were a Nats event how about a gold breakout slower then 1:25 and then unlimited with no breakout? As of now I think most unlimited guys would be capable of around 1:20. that's only a 5 second difference between classes. Would slowing down gold to a 1:35 breakout bring in more guys?
12-08-2014, 03:09 PM
#54
I have no issues with the electrics except we would need to establish watt/wing area charts and then limit them to 10 cells or less. The problem is who is able to enforce the watt limits? We test the guy with 8 cells and he passes then he throws in a 10 cell setup. One of the things EF1 did right ( sort of ) was that you have to run approved equipment.
12-08-2014, 03:50 PM
#55
My Feedback: (66)
Shawn the electric is to easy to set up. once you find the right prop and battery you dont have to do a single thing after that. no bad glow plug, no tuning issue on the line. no change during the day with the air. if we allow electric this WILL turn into an all electric race. This hobby need more glow powered flying. Allowing electric will hurt YS and other glow powered MFG's even more than what is going on now. I see this form of racing helping to keep them around longer. electric is more consisent so its easier to race. Electric would dominate over the glow stuff very quickly.
12-08-2014, 05:01 PM
#56
I am all for a race nearest the greatest pool of racers. Yet I really want to see my RCPRO friends come and race as well. Its a LOOOOOONG drive for them up near Bakersfield or Sacramento. But not sure how many of them would come anyway just yet.
The electrics are cool but will need their own class and should not be mixed with nitro. Ive talked to alot of people about this including Tony Pacini who helped get the erasers oooops sorry E Racers started in RCPRO.
Ill tell ya, It isnt cheaper to run electrics compared to a YS. Maybe in Bronze, but in Gold these guys bring out some serious equipment that aint cheap and tons of batteries. They have it down to a science and are consistantly fast. WHat ever they are running is exactly what Id like to see set as the standard. They can run right with me at those altitudes for the whole race. But that is another hill to climb at the proper time.
With break outs it balances everyone out.
My desire is Nitro and I feel most feel the same. BUT I am all for an E Racer class in this. We just cant have 6 classes of racing with large entries and get it all done in 2 days. So when the time comes we will have to see about which classes to start out with. I love the E racers in this and they love being in it, just not yet IMO.
The electrics are cool but will need their own class and should not be mixed with nitro. Ive talked to alot of people about this including Tony Pacini who helped get the erasers oooops sorry E Racers started in RCPRO.
Ill tell ya, It isnt cheaper to run electrics compared to a YS. Maybe in Bronze, but in Gold these guys bring out some serious equipment that aint cheap and tons of batteries. They have it down to a science and are consistantly fast. WHat ever they are running is exactly what Id like to see set as the standard. They can run right with me at those altitudes for the whole race. But that is another hill to climb at the proper time.
With break outs it balances everyone out.
My desire is Nitro and I feel most feel the same. BUT I am all for an E Racer class in this. We just cant have 6 classes of racing with large entries and get it all done in 2 days. So when the time comes we will have to see about which classes to start out with. I love the E racers in this and they love being in it, just not yet IMO.
12-08-2014, 07:07 PM
#57
To be very clear - We are not trying to change any series sets of rules. You stay your own entity. We are merely trying to create a one 2-day race a year event that offers all warbird regional series type of racing the chance to come compete for a championship title. None of you will need to change your rules.
You will have to bring your A game however if you want to take home the big trophy.
You will have to bring your A game however if you want to take home the big trophy.
12-08-2014, 09:41 PM
#58
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Hey Marty, David here and you can expect me to be apart of this big warbird race if and when this finalizes. ILL definitely be spreading the word of this race to the rest of our Victorville racers and let the guys in the corona club know too. Hopefully this can become something big for many years to come, don't wanna miss this one!
12-09-2014, 07:58 AM
#61
Hey David, thx for the help, this has the potential to happen, at least on the local regional arena for now.
Yes Shawn the nats type event will have to have a set of rules that are accepted by the AMA
My basic outline would be as follows
all the same verbage that is currently in the rcpro and sams (I havent seen the triangle series rules yet) rules in the beginning
we would keep the current sams wing size/ eng size charts with the exception we open it up to allow 2 strokes to match 4 stroke sizes
we use the same point system for heats and determining a champion
we use the same course dimensions
we use the same matrixing
its that simple guys
Yes Shawn the nats type event will have to have a set of rules that are accepted by the AMA
My basic outline would be as follows
all the same verbage that is currently in the rcpro and sams (I havent seen the triangle series rules yet) rules in the beginning
we would keep the current sams wing size/ eng size charts with the exception we open it up to allow 2 strokes to match 4 stroke sizes
we use the same point system for heats and determining a champion
we use the same course dimensions
we use the same matrixing
its that simple guys
12-09-2014, 05:22 PM
#62
I'm all in! I don't care if electrics race, Just not with Glow. If you need help Marty Just shout. As for the Nats possibility..I'm totally in for that. I can haul about 100 Race planes in my trailer. Everyone between here and Muncie can just fly in.
Dave
Dave
Last edited by PLANEBENDER; 12-09-2014 at 05:32 PM.
12-09-2014, 08:44 PM
#64
Shawn the electric is to easy to set up. once you find the right prop and battery you dont have to do a single thing after that. no bad glow plug, no tuning issue on the line. no change during the day with the air. if we allow electric this WILL turn into an all electric race. This hobby need more glow powered flying. Allowing electric will hurt YS and other glow powered MFG's even more than what is going on now. I see this form of racing helping to keep them around longer. electric is more consisent so its easier to race. Electric would dominate over the glow stuff very quickly.
As for electrics being easy to set up, we have certainly not found that to be the case, at least not in the Gold class. The batteries are susceptible to ambient temperature changes; too hot or too cold, and they lose efficiency. This point was clearly illustrated at the August race in Chino Valley; a motor/battery/prop combination that worked well in the morning resulted in battery destruction in the higher afternoon temperatures. In fact, that combination had worked well for a good part of the season. While our general setup of battery/esc/motor may not change, we can adjust load and therefore power consumption by changing props.
In addition to the power system challenges, electrics are heavier than their glow counterparts, and this can make the performance somewhat edgy; takeoff and landing speeds are higher, and they don't turn as well. The cost factor is much higher, too.
Having said all that, I fully agree with airraptor in that electrics should not be included in what Marty is trying to do here, but only because there is no effective way to govern performance by regulating equipment and/or airframe size.
Last edited by Tony Pacini; 12-09-2014 at 09:13 PM.
12-09-2014, 11:45 PM
#66
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I do see the E-racers being a bit of a question mark here. I'm Not against electrics either (I WELCOME THE SIGHT OF ANY RACE PLANE AT AN EVENT) , but I do know the E-warbirds are on a different level compared to other gold & silver warbirds now. I can see the electric warbirds having their own class but I know you guys don't wanna have to be dealing with 4+ race classes taking up too much time in a first time event. Maybe later down the road this event will be growing enough to add a day or two towards its schedule to accommodate this. But it's still too early to tell, so we'll all just keep up the brainstorming & barnstorming and make this race happen!!!
12-10-2014, 05:58 AM
#67
Just to revise something I said earlier tht was pointed out to me:
We should allow composite fuses as some have already molded them. But Hollow Composite wings should stay out of the mix or we then end up with all molded planes. Even though the break out regulates this, the all comp planes will eventually create a cubic dollar scenario I do not want. Sorry for the mix up. This is why we are doing this a group effort here. The rules will be done very soon. NOW we need a place. Come on guys.
We should allow composite fuses as some have already molded them. But Hollow Composite wings should stay out of the mix or we then end up with all molded planes. Even though the break out regulates this, the all comp planes will eventually create a cubic dollar scenario I do not want. Sorry for the mix up. This is why we are doing this a group effort here. The rules will be done very soon. NOW we need a place. Come on guys.
12-10-2014, 06:04 AM
#68
Just to revise something I said earlier tht was pointed out to me:We should allow composite fuses as some have already molded them. But Hollow Composite wings should stay out of the mix or we then end up with all molded planes. Even though the break out regulates this, the all comp planes will eventually create a cubic dollar scenario I do not want. Sorry for the mix up. This is why we are doing this a group effort here. The rules will be done very soon. NOW we need a place. Come on guys.
12-10-2014, 06:14 AM
#70
Tony
Glad you chimed in. I was at a race in Tucson last year and it was so cold my YS had a hrd time starting. But the Eracers were having troubles of their own. The were warming batteries in a electric skillet. It was below freezing out. It was a challenge for all of us. I have seen the electrics struggle in the extreme cold and winds. They just didnt seem to pull against the wind like a 4 stroke could. Kind of like the 2 strokes struggle in the wind do. I did not know hotter temps would effect them as bad though. I know heat is an enemy just didnt think for a short race it would effect it.
Im cleaning up the cosmetic of the rules and will post them to anyone who wants them in an email. I need to figure a web page or FB page or something to be the host of this event. Anyone want to do that?
Glad you chimed in. I was at a race in Tucson last year and it was so cold my YS had a hrd time starting. But the Eracers were having troubles of their own. The were warming batteries in a electric skillet. It was below freezing out. It was a challenge for all of us. I have seen the electrics struggle in the extreme cold and winds. They just didnt seem to pull against the wind like a 4 stroke could. Kind of like the 2 strokes struggle in the wind do. I did not know hotter temps would effect them as bad though. I know heat is an enemy just didnt think for a short race it would effect it.
Im cleaning up the cosmetic of the rules and will post them to anyone who wants them in an email. I need to figure a web page or FB page or something to be the host of this event. Anyone want to do that?
12-10-2014, 12:31 PM
#73
My Feedback: (66)
how will a molded wing tip work on a foam balsa covered wing. The wings tips will be different between the different building techniques.
I agree Marty. The Q40 type molded wings will allow a plane to be faster than a plane with a built up wing. This in turn will allow less nitro or a run a smaller engine. this lighter weight will then be more consistent on the course and in will force more to switch to this and then we are into the who has the most money scenario.
I agree Marty. The Q40 type molded wings will allow a plane to be faster than a plane with a built up wing. This in turn will allow less nitro or a run a smaller engine. this lighter weight will then be more consistent on the course and in will force more to switch to this and then we are into the who has the most money scenario.
12-10-2014, 12:38 PM
#74
Jeff, what I plan to do is tape off the wing exposing the last 3/8" or so. then sand the balsa to the point where the tips slip fit on then epoxy in place. I will then match sand the balsa sheeting flush to the tip. When the wing gets glassed the glass will extend past the seam. Prim and paint the whole wing. It would not work well if using film covering.
