speedracerntrixie

My Feedback: (29)

To be clear the advantage I refer to is not a faster airplane. The glow guys have to deal with changing mixture as the day warms up, glow plugs, glow drivers, starters. Transitioning lean and spitting a prop, props failing, vibration issues, fuel tank and plumbing issues. Getting consistent fuel. This is just what comes to mind right now. The electrics have to deal with heat and duraration, both related to pulling too much current. Higher wing loading is something the E guys will eventually figure out. As you said Andy you are running an ARF that appears to be intended for glow so would be considerably overbuilt for electric. If there are any other issues electrics pose let me know. I didn't include setting the motor timing as once that is set its a done deal.

Tony Pacini

Each power system has it's advantages be it 4C, 2C, or electric. All have disadvantages, too. I started with a piped K&B, then went to Nelson, then YS, and now the electrics. I had to pay dues with all of them. I have found that any power system can be competitive, and I like all of them for different reasons.

Most would concede that the class breakouts effectively level the playing field. However, since some seem to be concerned about perceived advantages, I'd have to say that I believe the nod goes to YS power. YS-powered birds break out more often and by a larger margin. Also, the wing area tables seem to favor 4C engines (especially the 1.15).

For now I'm playing the electric game, just because it's different and I like the challenge. I suppose I'd do better with a larger, lighter airframe and anything BUT electric power, but where's the fun in that?

rotor5150

I would like to address this issue left by Shawn. "For this to work I think the race starts have to be on even playing field. Favoritism as far as letting the E guys take off last and land first is not going to be well received across the board. It may work out OK at your club but to be perfectly honest I just don't see it not becoming an issue."

The electric RCPro warbird racing is not something that is done only at "our club". The Chino Valley club we come from did not start holding warbird races until 2 years later. These races are held in Phoenix, Tucson, Cedar City-Utah, Victorville-CA and sometimes Saint George-Utah. Most of the e-pilots take off 25 seconds before the clock. There is no order for takeoff. Your wheels have to be in the air 10 seconds before start. This rule applies to everyone. There has been many times when a pilot is fine tuning his nitro engine and takes off after an e pilot does. Landing order is usually who finishes first. We did have one venue that asked everyone to finish by lane not placement and we had no problems meeting that requirement. I just do not want people to think that electrics are being catered to in RCPro warbird racing, we are still the minority. The majority of guys we race with don't seem to have a problem with us racing beside them.

Marty, this I would like to address: "My point is we can both buy our power parts off the shelf, but the YS doesnt require to much of a skill set to install and operate. I for one, wouldnt know what motor to get, then I wouldnt know which Speed Controller or what settings with in it to run. Then I wouldnt know what btty series/parallel would work. WHat you guys run arent sold as a "race package" where as my motor is. You missed that point."

For you to purchase a new YS 115, bolt it on a plane and fly it seems very simple. Do you remember the first time you had a YS one way check valve go bad and you racked your brain trying to figure it out. Or how about the diaphragm getting a small hole in it and losing pressure. Or remembering to turn the engine over when it was cold to get pressure in the tank for the fuel system to properly work. Then after you understand all of that learning to tune them so you get the most power and not destroy your plug every run, tuning it just a little richer on the ground knowing that when its flying the air coming into the carb and altitude with cause the engine to lean out. Also, as your fuel runs lower in the tank the engine will also tend to run a little leaner. Would you allow a person with very little YS experience to touch your needle valve?

These are all things that took you and every other nitro racer along time to completely understand. Tuning a nitro engine is an art. To think a person that has little experience will buy any high performance nitro engine and be competitive without the help of an experienced person is unreasonable. It is also unreasonable to assume that electrics are any easier. Again, without the help of an experienced person, you will go thru alot of cash and headaches trying to figure it out on your own.

The other comment I would like to address is: "WHat you guys run arent sold as a "race package" where as my motor is. You missed that point".

It is true most hobby shops can order any YS motor available on the market. What is also true is any hobby shop can order you our setup for gold planes. The setup is as follows (Scopion 5035-410 on (2) 6s-5000mah lipos, Castle 160HV esc, Hitec servos, Spektrum receiver, 2100life pack for receiver, Tower Hobbies GP mustang arf) This is all off the self items, the only modification is to the arf, we sheet the wing and tail section in 1/64 plywood. This setup is around 160mph on the course with a cost of around $1100.00 retail. What I do know is the YS115 you can purchase from any hobby shop, but the airframe you run you cannot.

After the lipo fire that the Sacramento club had and the damage that occurred to their runway putting out this fire, I completely understand why they don't allow lithium based batteries. This is not a political issue with your club, it is a safety issue. If the club you decide to host this at does not allow lithium batteries then it is a safety issue and all of us E racers understand.

Shawn had made a statement in an earlier thread that if you look at other forms of racing, planes, cars, boats, etc nitro and electric are seperated. You are absolutely correct. I feel that is why us e racers are trying so hard to keep these warbird events with both parties racing together. If you look at the stats from RCpro racing you will find that the nitro/electric wins are pretty much split. I do not feel the electrics have ran away with the wins. I do not feel the wing area chart is leveling the race field in any way. The B/O does.

Marty, I hope you understand I am not trying to disrespect you in any way. As a pilot and friend I hold you in high esteem. I appreciate the work you are putting into this new event to try and get it started. We all do have a common thread, we love racing...

andyy

My Feedback: (4)

You guys mentioned how difficult it is to tune your motors during the day to stay competitive. I don't understand why you are trying to make others have to go through all of those troubles because you choose to run that type of power. I am sure most of those tuning problems would not be a problem with gas engines instead of glow. They usually run close to the same all the time once they are tuned. I am sure you would use gas or a different glow motor if there was one that was faster than the current glow motors. How many old glow engines have you gone through in the past that are not competitive anymore.

We have our problems also just like you do with changing conditions. Electrics run differently with changing temperatures just like the other motors. I just comes down to I prefer electric and you prefer fuel planes.

The plane we run is already set up for fuel or electric so you can run either power plant. Anyone could put one of the YS engines in it and I would think it would be competitive since it would be lighter and corner better. My point was that anyone can easily get one and not have to buy some expensive airframe or spend a lot of time building one.

Again I am not trying to change the event Marty is setting up the decision has been made. I just don't want people to think the electric planes have some kind of a huge advantage at this time. Who knows what the future will hold maybe some new fuel engine or electric setup that is really fast. But if the B/O is the same for both then there is really no advantage if a good setup in either one can B/O and at this time that is what is happening. Who knows what tomorrow will bring we will have to deal with that when it happens.

speedracerntrixie

My Feedback: (29)

Andy, I think you may be missing the point I have been trying to make. The issues that face glow powered airplane are there and always will be. Glow will always need to be started with a starter, have a glow driver, fuel tank etc. The YS engines are so far ahead of anything else that even mentioning a gasser in this mix just is not going to happen in gold. Let's face it gold is the class that we are really talking about here. The electric issues are something that I feel you guys are going to eventually work out. The speed controls are going to get better, batteries are going to get better but most importantly you will figure out how to build a cleaner, lighter airplane. A good example is Corbitt including a 2100 man RX battery in his equipment list. Good God! why such a big battery? I run an 850 mah battery and the electrics are going to use less RX battery capacity then a YS powered airplane. That's my point, right now you guys are still in the learning phase. your airplanes are going to get lighter, faster and more consistent. How are we going to level the playing field in 3 or 4 years when that happens?

Tony Pacini

Might I be so bold as to suggest that the playing field (with the wing area table) isn't even level NOW? YS enjoys a decided advantage over the 2-strokes.

speedracerntrixie

My Feedback: (29)

Tony I agree, I put off going 4 stroke for a long time. My motto used to be " I never met an engine I didn't like except if it were a 4 stroke ". I grew up Q500 racing and adored the Pattern airplanes of the era ( Late '70's ) No 4 strokes at the time. The current advantage the 4 strokes have is because it was not anticipated that the current offerings would have anywhere near as much power as they do. Throw in the fact that no currently offered 2 stroke can come close to the same power/weight ratio as the 115. I see the potential of the same thing happening here. We include electrics to race with glow while the speeds are fairly equal and then a couple years from now the electrics advance to the point of having the clear edge in not only speed but in reliability. Then to be competitive one must go electric in the same manner that I had to go YS. The difference is that the purists myself included find it difficult to picture WW2 heavy metal without the sound and smell of an IC powerplant. Think of how much less appealing NHRA events would be without the loud ground pounding Top Fuel cars. Imagine them electric. Not trying to put down electric but it just looses some of the nostalgia. That being said I do realize that electrics will some day become even more popular and eventually will become the majority.

andyy

My Feedback: (4)

That is my point over time things change and we will have to possibly make rule changes if it is necessary. You cant stop progress whether you like it or not. The past warbird racers have always made changes over time and will continue to. Why should the sport not be able to progress just because you like the sound of the fuel engines. I am sure there will be another better fuel engine that comes out in the future but if not why slow down the progress of the sport. If this discussion was on some new great fuel engine it would be where to get one for your plane not how to prevent it from competing. I am sorry if you want to hang on to the past that is your choice. I have tried a few times to hang onto the past but have always had to adopt new things I didn't really want to. Look at computers and cell phones both things I was reluctant to learn but I it would be hard to live without them now.

speedracerntrixie

My Feedback: (29)

Well, making rules changes is a whole different can of worms. The group that wants the change supports it and everyone else criticizes it. Typically the fewer changes being made to rules the better. Granted there are times when it is needed or different wording needs to be added to better define the intent of a rule. But realistically, making a rules change to accommodate 5 or 6 guys is a bad idea. As far as a " Better " glow engine coming out, if it fits in the current or even revised criteria then it will be allowed if it don't fit then it don't race. I think the heart of the issue with electrics is how do we fit it into the current criteria and how will it be accommodated in the future as advancements are made? Yes times change and things advance but I ask you to name one form of racing that did not advance to the point of losing participants. It has happened in Q500, F1 ( died altogether ) Q40 would be more popular if it weren't for the composite airframes. Even outside of racing there is soaring, pattern, IMAC that has advanced so far as to drive guys away. Isn't this what we want to prevent here. Progress is not always a good thing, some things are better off left alone or " Low Tech "

MFLOOD3800

My Feedback: (51)

First off, I dont feel you are disrespecteing me, but just disagreeing with me and I am perfectly fine with that because I disagree with you on some points as well. I
see what you are saying from your side of the fence. But from my side my opinion is logical to me.

Your Electrics DO HAVE AN ADVANTAGE come on guys........
But hear me out here:
MY YS POWERED PLANE HAS AN ADVANTAGE TOO.
Cause its on a slick airframe.

Put the YS115 in a WM ARF and it is fast- but not like mine. Ask Tony Lopez who tried this stock set up for a while and couldnt run with me. He is a much better pilot but didnt have the advantage I had, we both had identical engines, but I had an airframe that was custom . So it isnt the YS I use- its the airframe.

I agree the YS 4 stroke has an advantage over a 2 stroke in the 515 Sq In wing.


Your advantage IS the power set up. You put it in most an ARF and break out at any altitude in any class cause there are no limits to your set ups..
I put a YS in an ARF and am fast at low altitude, like SAMS but not higher air density like Utah, Phoenix, Chino, Hesperia, Tucson. To me you gain an advantage right there.
Your power system works in any ARF at any altitude.
But to join you on your side of the fence, Id say:
But then come the disadvantages for electrics- Cold weather, Very Hot weather and very windy conditions. All 3 of these I witnessed effected the performance of the electric set up.
So in your defense we all advantages/disadvantages.


But that is NOT WHY THEY ARENT IN THIS WARBIRD CHAMPIONSHIP RACE


The reason they arent in this race of mine is the safety issues they pose at certain fields.
Thats it.

I hope to secure a permanent location that is electric friendly and get a pilot base established and go from there. If I take the rules to the AMA (Which some fields may require) I am in a 2 year rule cylce with no changes. So I cant risk allowing electrics in by way of rules if I end up having to racing this race in Sac where they cant have electrics.

Its not your set ups, its the dangers.

rotor5150

Coming from a nitro background I can completely empathize with losing that sound and smell you are referring to. It was an adjustment period for me.

If you look at most of the nitro powered warbirds racing you find most are running 2.4 ghz computer radios and high speed/high torque digital servos. If you were to ask any of those pilots to give up that technology and go back to unreliable am systems and heavy standard servos that put out 48 oz/inches how many pilots would? This hobby, even warbird racing has adopted new technology. Yet some racers insist the only power plant that should be used is a 40+ year old engine design. If you look at any old carbureted nitro engine it hasn't changed much in all these years. The machine tolerance and materials they are made from are much better but the engine design is very similar.

It's true the full size warbirds weren't electric but they also weren't a single cylinder that burned alcohol and nitro. My intent on any of these post is not to convince someone to go to electric, it is simply to let the epower race next to the nitro power. Eliminating the wing area restriction would do this. If you have 75 pilots show up at one of these events do you really take the time to measure every plane and the pilots backup to make sure they are correct? You do not, you know these pilots are there to enjoy the race, not to promote a product or win money.

rotor5150

Coming from a nitro background I can completely empathize with losing that sound and smell you are referring to. It was an adjustment period for me.

If you look at most of the nitro powered warbirds racing you find most are running 2.4 ghz computer radios and high speed/high torque digital servos. If you were to ask any of those pilots to give up that technology and go back to unreliable am systems and heavy standard servos that put out 48 oz/inches how many pilots would? This hobby, even warbird racing has adopted new technology. Yet some racers insist the only power plant that should be used is a 40+ year old engine design. If you look at any old carbureted nitro engine it hasn't changed much in all these years. The machine tolerance and materials they are made from are much better but the engine design is very similar.

It's true the full size warbirds weren't electric but they also weren't a single cylinder that burned alcohol and nitro. My intent on any of these post is not to convince someone to go to electric, it is simply to let the epower race next to the nitro power. Eliminating the wing area restriction would do this. If you have 75 pilots show up at one of these events do you really take the time to measure every plane and the pilots backup to make sure they are correct? You do not, you know these pilots are there to enjoy the race, not to promote a product or win money.

MFLOOD3800

My Feedback: (51)

Well Chris, when I show up i am just there to beat the electrics

MFLOOD3800

My Feedback: (51)

If i can find a field that is located in a good place for all racers to travel fairly, and allow electrics, and will commit to having us yearly, I will look at a set of rules for electrics in the future. But these will need limits for all 3 classes. This innagural event could not afford the electrics with the limits of field choices.

I ask this from you Andy, Tony and Chris, design a set of rules for E racers in bronze, silver and gold. Use your knowledge on equipment and apply it to the current wing area charts in the rules. Tell me what you think the speeds will be with those set ups. Not saying you get in, but its up to you to offer the solution.

MFLOOD3800

My Feedback: (51)

..

rotor5150

Sorry for posting this twice, I barely know how to use the computer...

Marty, you are correct, electric has an advantage over nitros when it comes to altitude. And to say we weren't fast I would be lying. I feel that if you had already secured a field that would not allow lithium based batteries this debate probably would have gone nowhere. The problem is electrics were ruled out from the beginning before the discussion ever started. By applying SAM guidelines you know there is no way we can race. If this takes off, it will be next to impossible to try and change the rules half way thru.

Andy made a good point earlier. If an nitro manufacture put out a new engine that fit the the current size requirements and produced much more power, would you try to eliminate that engine from competing? Any good pilot with a decent airframe can break out at even given time with a nitro. Tony Lopez, Tony and Tanner Pacini, Richard Verano, yourself and many others. Tony Lopez is an incredible pilot, I have seen him break out of his share of heats just like everyone else. He may not be able to hang with your plane but he can break out. Richard V can fly in the teens. How many electric planes have you seen do that? I doesn't matter what altitude he is flying at, HE'S FAST!!! The reason the B/O times have been lowered to 1:25 in gold is because you guys are running faster, you are breaking out at 1:30.

rotor5150

"Well Chris, when I show up i am just there to beat the electrics" This is why I love you so much and at the same time want to break those golden thumbs of yours. You are a true competitor, so lets compete, drop the wing area and it solves alot of problems. If you want to bolt a YS 140 on a 400 square inch wing then you should be able to do it.....

MFLOOD3800

My Feedback: (51)

"I feel that if you had already secured a field that would not allow lithium based batteries this debate probably would have gone nowhere. The problem is electrics were ruled out from the beginning before the discussion ever started. By applying SAM guidelines you know there is no way we can race. If this takes off, it will be next to impossible to try and change the rules half way thru. "

Not true Chris
This is my race not SAMS, RCPRO OR TRINGLE SERIES OR ANYONE ELSES.

I used input from all these people and their venues and rules to some degree. But it is MY race.

I will use what is going to work fairly and could be seen nationaly as an appealing prospect.
- not sure if electrics fit into that just yet on a national level

I already have another set of rules on my PC with a variation to the wing charts allowing the 2 strokes to compete more fairly.
I would love to add in your E set ups in a wing chart to allow you to race as well.

I chose the current set of rules because I felt I may be using the Sams field and workers if nothing else popped up. Not everyone has the right field or membership to allow racing. If I make this an AMA sanctioned event, without a class c waiver, I am stuck with my rules for 2 years. Some clubs may require an AMA sanction. Allowing electrics in wouldve made Sams impossible for those 2 years.
I just want to get this off the ground and go from there.

When I go to Sams or Redding and race in Gold, everyone of those guys can break out and run in the teens- not just Richard. Thats what I love about it up there.

Its up to you e racers to get me a set of guide lines with motor, esc, bttys inside of the current wing chart.
I will add that to my "other rules set".
Hopefully one day I can open that up publically once we secure a place to allow it.

Until then dont stay away cause E power isnt allowed. I will still call it a Warbird Championship Race, and I will still crown a Warbird champion.
I know you guys know YS power. So build it and race with us.

rotor5150

Sounds good Marty, we will discuss the e option at a later time. It is your race, hopefully we can hammer out an e resolution at some point.

I know your old and your hip is acting up. I didn't mean to upset you. I heard Metamucil and Depends-Adult diapers approached you for sponsorship.
That was terrible, I am sorry. I feel so bad about it I will have Tony and Andy buy you dinner next time we race.

airraptor

My Feedback: (66)

A 140 on 400 sq to me isn't safe and won't be fast.

Electrics and glow shouldn't mix in a racing event period. No AMA event that races planes or cars does this.

stang151

Again I must be stupid, I don;t understand... The B/O levels the playing field... I don't care what line you run ,when you take off or land (as long it is in the leagl time limit) I have seen plenty of callers running back to the pits with a stalled glow for restart. Let's just RACE.. Everyone has their own issues with the powerplants Elect.,glow, or gas thats part of the racing ,not knowing what is going to happen on any day . I have a moded Kyosho KI-61 with a YS 115 that I don't think is quite legal in SAMS but is not a world killer either. The wing charts with a B/O is redundent. I am sory for the rant but I don't like rules for rules sake luts just race and see what shakes out.

stang151

...

stang151

...

rotor5150

I love you "stang151", will you marry me???

He gets it.............

MFLOOD3800

My Feedback: (51)

Well Chris, that last comment just eliminated electrics fro ever having a chance


Glen the wing chart stays, though it may eventually see some tweaks. Sometimes racing is more than just winning. Its how we present who we are as we get there.

Jeff I understand your desire.

But everyone needs to remember the INTENT of this race was to combine ALL the racing into one and crown the champ.
I am fully persuaded it will be a plane with a YS on it, in every class, with or without, the electrics.
The End