andyy

My Feedback: (4)

I think the wing chart is not valid anymore I like the B/O instead. I don't know of any way to use wattage as a rule. You would have to build a special meter to check it since I don't know of any watt meter that will handle the power we are putting out. I also don't want to limit the motor for electrics, defiantly not for two years they are changing daily. Your not limiting the fuel engine that is used just the size. You cant use size for electric because the same size motor can put out many different amounts of power and that is changing daily.

I think if you want the sport to grow then you have to include as many types of planes as possible so people can fly what they want and can build. If your plane is legal in one series how can it be excluded in the overall championship race. The guys I fly with cant afford nor do we want to build a plane to fly in one event of the year. That doesn't make sense to require that.

I for one cant afford to buy custom airframes to compete so we have to add more power to be competitive using cheap ARFs. As you said you used a clean airframe to gain speed so why is using electric to gain speed different than that. This whole discussion is around the perceived electric advantage. What's the difference what type of advantage you use engine, airframe whatever. When the B/O is used it doesn't matter what has made you fast if you are able to B/O. If you are worried about not keeping up lower the B/O and then everyone can keep up.

You go ahead and plan the event but you just cant call it an overall warbird champion if you exclude people that fly by the rules in the RCPRO series or any other warbird series that you are trying to include in your race.

I completely understand the no LIPO situation at some fields and why they have made that decision. If that is what is not allowing electrics to fly there then there is nothing that we can do about it. Just don't call it an overall warbird championship race. It sounds like the problem is the venue not the rules they can be changed to allow what ever you want to fly there.

D.E.

Last I will say on this as I dont have a dog in this hunt but watts is just a number come by math with knowing motor kv, prop size and battery volts, if you do not change any of those after tech then watts do not change.

I think a bigger worry would be airframe, from what I see there is a lot of improvement by building a more suited airframe package from what is there now and it doesnt even need to be a composite wing or tail and could even be scale, I see lots of small changes that could reduce a lot of drag and a wing that works better for the pylon task, whatever motor it has... That is where you need the protection from it getting out of control. But then the break out levels all, no need for a plane you could glide the last lap with when it would just break out...

airraptor

My Feedback: (66)

Andy if you want to be champion then need to race a non electric plane in this even or you can make your own warbird championship race lol. rules are rules do you see the EF-1 guys racing with the Q40 guys? Do you see F-3D mixed with F-5D? You cant afford a custom airframe yet can spend mega bucks on powerplants and motors lol I guess i need to build an electric plane to show what a light one can do lol

andyy

My Feedback: (4)

That doesn't make sense we are not comparing different kinds of racing. If this event is supposed to be a champion from all of the warbird racing guys then you have to include all of them not just part of them. We are following the RCPRO rules not trying to be included in a different class of racing. You said you wanted to include the RCPRO guys in the event.

I don't spend mega bucks on power plants and motors the ones I fly are not very expensive. I also have to pay for two people to fly not just one unless I want to tell my grandson he cant race anymore.

I would like to see someone build a purpose built electric plane I am sure that is the future I just don't know how to do it. If it was truly fast and met the current rules I am sure they would find some new rule to keep it from flying anyway.

stang151

The fact is that the B/O rules all. Should not matter what plane, prop or powerplant there is. If you need to fly wide and can't nail a start then get a faster set-up. If you don't have big bucks learn to get good starts and fly the plyons,it all comes down to the fact of who gets to the finish first with out breaking. I am leaving out the requirements for safety, but I think we all know that is understood. There are some very good pilots who fly elect. and to regulate them out of a "Championship" race is a shame. To have a wing chart and powerplant restrictions for an "Unlimited" class just does not make sense. I will shut up now as it seems that I don't have a plane in this race ...my Tony is short on sq." doesn't have the radiator housing under the fuse. , and has Z bends.

PLANEBENDER

My Feedback: (3)

I think the path to racing Gold time (1:25) Or (1:30) with the smallest cost is coming very soon from The World Model Company. The new "RACE" Spitfires will very soon be available from YS Performance and or World Models. We have test flown the 2 Prototypes with a box stock YS-115 and it's an easy breakout on the 1:25 at sea Level. I see many of these engines being sold used for a really good price. Just a thought.

Planebender

stang151

One last thing . Is this a Warbird Racing championship or a YS championship? Just saying.....

Tony Pacini

No, of course not! Nor do you see one group hold a "pylon championship race" and hope to elevate it to national status without including the others.

Warbird racing is regional, at best. In most cases, it's more of a local event. Promoting your version locally makes sense, especially when you've already got a good thing going with plenty of participation and you have the support of distributors like YS and World Models. Could the local version become popular enough to achieve a national status? Perhaps. Would it be easier to grow an event to a national status by including as many groups as possible, or by excluding them?

Promote it as SAMs/YS Warbird Championship and see where it goes. What could it hurt? Just don't ask the other groups to support the event and expect the majority build/buy new equipment in order to be able to participate.

SAMs racing in itself is an offshoot of the original SWRA event. SAMs modified the rules and built a very successful event. Nobody can agrue with that. It works in that area, and it works well. Speedworld then RCPRO did very much the same thing; 1-day races with no static judging. Eventually RCPRO dropped the wing area table, and that's now the biggest difference. All aircraft built to SAMs rules are eligible to race in RCPRO events, but many aircraft flown under RCPRO rules are excluded from SAMs events.

Here's the question to answer: which would be easier to promote to a national level? The one that allows the greatest diversity of airframes and power systems, or the one whose rules are the most restrictive?

Diversity encourages participation.

speedracerntrixie

My Feedback: (29)

Tony, to answer that of course we would want to pull from the largest pool of participants. That being said, how many E guys are we talking about here? Would it be worth putting in provisions to allow the electrics if only 3 or 4 E powered racers show up? IMO if 25% or more were running electric then I would be all for it. Just how many guys would you think would show up and race?

MFLOOD3800

My Feedback: (51)

You guys are making it sound like you are the only RCPRO guys who would come. And the rest of the RCPRO guys who fly nitro and choose to fly nitro with legal airplanes per my rules, are grouped in with you. Many, in fact the majority, have legal planes already, yet you are trying to paint this picture like they have to go buy a new one to race. That is absolutely wrong. Glen your comment on Z bends and scale outline as far as radiator scoop is wrong. We are after scale outlines yes, to keep out Q40 and other planes that will potentially ruin this style of racing. I set the rules up with what was in line with the old rules of RCPRO when it was a flourishing event and in my opinion the right way to regualte it. Most any ARF today fits into this category as is what the majority of the RCPRO guys flying fuel use. We all have our opinions and yet you seem to think yours is the only one that matters. You seem to think no one else's opinion is valid so, "dont call it a warbird championship race". I like to think I too can have an opinion, and that my opinions do matter. I like to think a wing chart and eng limit for all classes is valid. It isnt just a YS race. They will dominate in the gold class for sure, cause its the best value for racing there is. When you have something great, it will dominate. Seems to me like you guys are doing your best to deter anyone reading this thread from wanting to be a part of it, especially the rcpro guys- thanks for that.
I am still not sure how my opinion isnt valid, when I allow you yours in rcpro and dont say anything about it. I am against the lack of wing chart. I see us reflecting a Reno warbird race and that is nostalgic in its own presentation. I want to keep it as reno does. I prefer nitro for this reason. I dont hate electrics, but dont see them as really fitting into reno style racing. If this nitro type of warbird racing dies as a result of me not "keeping up with the times", then it will die with me at least doing what I enjoyed the way I felt it was best served. Have you ever heard me say anything bad about rcpro dropping the wing chart or allowing electrics - NO. Because I respect your opinion and choice and your rules. I dont complain about the rules, I just show up with what your rules allowed and raced. I did this before you dropped the wing chart, or allowed electrics. I didnt come in and push my opinion on you. I just raced. Now with your new rules I continue to do the same, cause I enjoy racing.

Once again Andy, I respect your knowledge and your opinion and drive to take electrics to the level you have, but I am still gong to call this a Warbird Championship Race even with out 6 pilots flying electric planes out of close to 90 pilots.

I in no way mean to hurt you guys or leave you out. But the huge majority of RCPRO guys have legal planes, and are more than welcome to come and put it all out there and be crowned champion.

airraptor

My Feedback: (66)

You guys that are all invited we are not eliminating you just electrics. if you choose to not come and race that's your choice. Build a plane per the rules and come to the championship race. Simple as that.

A stock WM mustang can run very very close to the number and can win in the gold. I I have ran a 126.1 with one and Chip Hyde has ran 125.8 with his. there are many smaller planes that you can run a two stroke on and be fast also.

Iron Dog

Not only are these particular E-racers making it sound like they are the only RCPRO guys who would come; they, and most responding, are making it sound as if there is only ONE class of racing occurring here. There is NO problem easily qualifying in the other two classes with relatively basic equipment - - equipment they seem to state they already have from their days in racing prior to choosing to focus on electric power. Silver still requires some structural strengthening, which responsible modelers (such as they) are likely doing/have done with any stock ARF, anyway. NO ONE IS BEING FORCED TO GO CUSTOM-DESIGN AND CUSTOM-BUILD A MODEL AND NECESSARILY PURCHASE A YS ENGINE JUST TO BE ABLE TO COMPETE IN THIS ONE EVENT. If you feel you need to do so in order to be able to compete in Gold, and have the means, then do so. If not, bring what you've got and come race against me and the other Silver racers. I guarantee you, with all the competitors in this class, if you truly are good enough to win on the day and be crowned Silver Champion, it will still feel like an extreme accomplishment.

Gold pilots can get a bit egocentric. You think you are the "Rock stars" of our sport, and let's face it -- you are! But gentlemen, you need to stop being so self-absorbed and acting like you are the ONLY participants in this race that matter. Intentional or not, the manner in which this discussion continues could be perceived as a little insulting to your fellow racers in the other classes.

I completely understand the passion behind these comments, as few are more passionate about this sport than I. However, many responses in this discussion could stand a focus towards "empathetic editing." We EACH need to try to put ourselves in the others' place, truly try to understand where the other is coming from, and be a bit more compassionate in our responses to each other. If you truly love this sport, you should realize it is not ALL about the win . . . it is about the relationships we build along the way. I for one do not plan to make it easy for anyone to beat me during the specific race heats in which I compete, as I intend to be at the top of my game, but I will give you all the support you need in-between those heats; and would love the opportunity to get to know you each on a more personal level.

Now that I have said my piece, I can only hope it is well-received. I am leaving for eye surgery in mere minutes, and will be effectively blind for about the next week. So, I will not be able to respond to any later posts for several days. If I somehow offend anyone, please know that that was NOT my intent. As I have said in numerous other posts on other threads, I consider my racing family exactly that - - FAMILY. The best part is that this is the family I get to choose. I hope to be able to extend that family of close friends even more, so I hope you will choose to come be a part of the event.

Ollie

airraptor

My Feedback: (66)

Ollie you are the Grand Champion of drinks too.

andyy

My Feedback: (4)

Marty I do respect your opinion as I said before you are putting together this event and can do it any way you want. I am sorry you have been put in this position but you are running it. I also feel anyone should be able to state their opinion also. I just thought this thread was to debate weather electrics should be able to fly in the national championship and my opinion is they should. If the tables were turned and you were going to be eliminated I hope you would fight for your rights also. I am not speaking for the RCPRO guys only the electric flyers. I know that there are only a few now but what about the future. I for one would not even consider going to this event even if the rules allowed electrics I am sure we would not be received well at all and I would not want to be in that position. We have had people against us from the beginning but I think most that fly with us now have changed their minds and enjoy flying with us. I hope we have not upset you we are just fighting for our rights to fly the planes we have put so much effort into making competitive. When we started no one thought we could make an electric work and now we are being eliminated because most people think we have some kind of advantage or just don't like electrics. The vast majority of you have never even flown with us but are somehow convinced we are spoiling the sport.

Again Marty I have no hard feelings against you or anyone else and I do hope things work out. I also hope you have no hard feelings against me for trying to stand up for my rights.

Only time will tell how this fuel / electric debate works out and what we are flying in the future. I just hope people can keep an open mind and not try to eliminate something just because it is different.

MFLOOD3800

My Feedback: (51)

Andy,
I have always appreciated what you guys did with those electrics. Why do you think I kept showing up with faster and faster planes? You guys have always brought good stuff and helped save rcpro when it was near death and made me find more speed.

For what it is worth, There has been 5 rcpro guys who chimed in here, and 4 Sams guys. I am neutral. There are close to 60 other pilots from each respective series group. So these posts, mine included, are only a small % of what is out there. Dont throw in the towel thinking you are not welcome.

I feel the only advantage you electrics have is you can do a go around on a blown approach for landing.

You have said a few times, " electrics are the future"... I agree. But As technology increases, the electrics will one day reach speeds that will be too dangerous at an AMA event. Regulations will then be put in place to keep them harnessed or its possible they wont even be allowed for safety concerns.


For safety reasons and as fast as elec technology is improving, limitations are needed already. This is just my opinion. I have watched you guys struggle on take offs when too much throttle is used. Imagine that 5 yrs from now with a lesser quality pilot. I quit running ARFs with my YS simply due to the stress they were under at these high nitro levels and speeds. I did not feel they were safe. If you look at every plane I build it has one of Merles soft mounts. I have had numerous phone calls with him on my concerns about "airframe abuse" and he shares them. Im about safety. Imagine 5 yrs down the road how fast electrics will be.

I hope you all can see my concerns for having a wing chart and eng limitation requirements.


We have already reached speeds, that in my opinion, some guys who are racing as well as some ARFS, just cant handle. There has to be limits or we will see a dissaster no one wants to see.

As stated above i love what you guys have done so far and enjoy racing with you. But I also feel you guys will push the envelope as far as technology allows, and that is not something I am safe with. Nothing against you guys, but you wont always be the only guys trying to race electrics.

We need limits, that are prooven and work for speed control and safety concerns. Even in Unlimited Class at Reno, they have rules and limits they have to follow. It isnt a "anything goes class" as some think. Even in Top Fuel they have rules. Even Nascar has rules.
These rules are for safety and controlling speeds that would otherwise exceed needed levels.

You wmight even eventually see in rcpro a rules revision once the electrics exceed a safe window of speed. Its just may be a matter of time. I would hope for safety reasons they monitor this.

rotor5150

"I completely understand the passion behind these comments, as few are more passionate about this sport than I. However, many responses in this discussion could stand a focus towards "empathetic editing." We EACH need to try to put ourselves in the others' place, truly try to understand where the other is coming from, and be a bit more compassionate in our responses to each other. If you truly love this sport, you should realize it is not ALL about the win . . . it is about the relationships we build along the way. I for one do not plan to make it easy for anyone to beat me during the specific race heats in which I compete, as I intend to be at the top of my game, but I will give you all the support you need in-between those heats; and would love the opportunity to get to know you each on a more personal level."

Irondog, I sincerely thank you for this thread, very poetic. I especially love the other comment about Gold pilots being egotistical. If you race RC planes and are egotistical you need to remember we are racing "toy airplanes" around a couple of poles nothing more. Thanks again for the thread, I loved it...

Marty, I cannot speak for others but my intent was never to try and persuade anyone from RCPro to not attend the race due to the nitro/electric debate. If my threads sounded like that, I sincerely apologize. You are a great guy and I know you're gonna put on a great race. I told you before, you are the organizer and you have every right to choose the format that works best for most people.

I did have a brainstorm though (it doesn't happen very often). At the end of the year we should take the 5 top pilots from Gold, Silver and Bronze. They will be the pilots that won the SAMS, Warbird Championship and RCPro and we could pick a location that best serves everyone and dual it out. No AMA event, just fun.

PLANEBENDER

My Feedback: (3)

+1. I'm in for that!!!

Dave

andyy

My Feedback: (4)

Marty if anyone thinks about safety that is me I work as an insurance adjuster. I see first hand what happens when things go wrong. If you are worried about how a plane is built isn't that what the plane safety inspection is for. We don't just shake our ARFs out of the box and expect it to hold up to what we put it through nor should anyone else. If that is what your concern is how do you test airframes for strength no matter what wing chart or rules you use? I am not worried about what will happen in the near future we know what that is. If the speeds get too high I agree something will have to be done but right now we have it under control. we are all flying the same speeds. I cant help it if there are bad pilots and don't know how you would stop them from flying. That concerns me more than the planes do. The last thing I want is someone hurt that would most likely end the sport.

I say quit making excuses and lets figure out what rules we can both live with or find some place that allows electric planes to fly for the overall warbird champion. The fuel guys are getting faster and faster all of the time also not just the electrics. If you keep a break out then I think the logical way the electrics will go is not more speed but figure out how to fly just fast enough to break out and start decreasing weight so the planes fly better. it dosent make sense to keep increasing speed with a break out time.

You know I don't even fly gold Ethan and I fly bronze and silver. They keep saying there are only a few electric guys so what are they worried about. It is unlikely a electric would win anyway against a large field like that and ruin there reputation. If by chance they would win they would have to earn it just like the rest of the field by good flying and some luck. You just said that you don't feel we have an advantage other than a second chance at a landing.

I don't want to hold up any single event over this controversy. I just don't want the electrics prevented from flying in the warbird racing. I am with Chris lets find a place we all can fly at that is as centralized as possible so we can get as many people to attend the event as possible.

rotor5150

You have said a few times, " electrics are the future"... I agree. But As technology increases, the electrics will one day reach speeds that will be too dangerous at an AMA event. Regulations will then be put in place to keep them harnessed or its possible they wont even be allowed for safety concerns.

Marty, this I must comment on: In addition to warbird racing you also race USRA (Unlimited Scale Racing Association) These plane can weight up to 55lbs and are now flying over 240mph. Have you addressed the speed and weight of these planes to the USRA committee. Have you told them they should reduce the weight and speed for safety sake???

MFLOOD3800

My Feedback: (51)

Chris,
Let me clear up the confusion for you as far as the USRA is concerned. Our planes are total composite, not built up, not foam cores, and all the latest tech for strength and lightness, weighinga total of 25-30 lbs RTF -not 55. They run a DA170 on glow that is heavily modified to weigh 7 lbs. . Our course is 1600' not 700'. But our course set backs are 450'.
Our pilots stand behind Krails, the same temporary structures you see on a construction site at a highway meant to keep cars in their lanes. Our course workers are 350' off the course. Everything about the USRA is done with safety in mind.

Our speed is allowed by our safety set backs and stiff control of our equipment, which we set , which the AMA has accepted based on our regulations and suggestions. We stepped up and made our sport safe and didnt force the AMA to have to come in and regulate it for us. When you force the AMA to step in, where safety is concerned, you are in trouble, as it is usually too late.

So to answer your question, the safety needs are already met in the USRA for these speeds. I was the VP of this org for a few years. Part of my job description was "safety". You can see where I get my concern for the small warbirds.

When ever I see a guy breaking a dead line, flying over the pits, crossing the runway (to the pit side)on final approach, or flying on the wrong side of the course- I just cringe.
When I see guys take off a plane, hand the Tx to a guy to race it, then take back the tx to land it for him, I am totally confused with concern.

speedracerntrixie

My Feedback: (29)

I'm sorry guys but it just looks like you are grasping at straws here. USRA is not what we are talking about here. As far as safety inspections are concerned, it's your responsibility to build an airplane that will withstand the stresses of racing. We check for things that can be seen such as linkages and such but if the race officials approve an airplane structurally then should an accident happen then they are on the hook as much as you are. Let's face it guys, E power is just not in the spirit of the event. I have respect for you guys in that you are innovative enough to make it work but to be honest I would not want to give up my landing slot or have all the glow guys in the air and staged waiting for the electrics to get airborn. Not that I have anything against any of you. When it's time to race then it's time to put on my competitors hat and race. If the guy next to me can't get started or kicks a prop off then that's his bad luck and I will gladly accept the win. That's part of racing. Take away that aspect and you clearly have an advantage. After the heat we can go back to being hugs and kisses.

stang151

You guys are grasping at straws, there have not been any extra staging times waiting for the elects. to take off( I have spent extra time in the air while a high profile glow pilot got his stuff together) and land when their told. If you can't manage your fuel that not their prob.
As for Gold pilots being egocentric? WOW I have never met those people, every Gold pilot that I have come in contact with has been of the utmost help and not in the LEAST egocentric. If they were I would not be racing in this series (RCPRO).
The BRACKET keeps the speeds down I don't know why this is so hard to understand. There will always be people show up just to go faster than any body else, the hell with the bracket (remember the MONSTER MOTERS at Speed World? ) It's up to the people running the race to allow these or not.
As to the Z bends ,Marty, I saw the rules you posted don't allow them (first time I have seen that in this size racing, though I don't read everyones rules) .While I see the concern with the tight bend in the wire causing stress and a possible fracture, I don't see that happing in this size plane. I wouldn't use them in a 1.50 or larger plane ,but maby I'm wrong ,I don't know.
Anyways I adamantly believe that the electrics should be included in any "Championship" race and that the wing charts ,with a break out, is redundant.

stang151

....

MFLOOD3800

My Feedback: (51)

Glen some your comments dont hold water:

The BRACKET keeps the speeds down I don't know why this is so hard to understand.

This is totally inaccurate. Break outs only regulate the legal times for getting points. The B/o absolutely has nothing to do with keeping speeds down, it only rewards those who stay under the b/o time.


As to the Z bends ,Marty, I saw the rules you posted don't allow them (first time I have seen that in this size racing, though I don't read everyones rules) .While I see the concern with the tight bend in the wire causing stress and a possible fracture, I don't see that happing in this size plane. I wouldn't use them in a 1.50 or larger plane ,but maby I'm wrong ,I don't know.

Again this is totally false. Please read the rules under section 6 of Safety Inspection. But since you keep bringing it up even when I tell you that you are wrong here it is:
1. A keeper, or collar, will be on all push rods that have a right angle bend that connects them to the servo output arms. Z-bends are acceptable. If clevises are used at both ends of a push rod, one must be secured, so that the push rod will not turn. EZ connecter type fasteners are NOT permitted on servo arms and push rod ends that control flying surfaces such as ailerons, elevator(s), and rudder(s).



Anyways I adamantly believe that the electrics should be included in any "Championship" race and that the wing charts ,with a break out, is redundant.


Though in some ways I agree with you Glen on allowing electrics, until they provide me with a set up per our wing chart ,( motor, esc, and brtty limits) I wont entertain the idea. Because BREAKOUTS NEVER CONTROL THE SPEED OF ANY AIRCRAFT IT ONLY CONTROLS THE LEGAL AWARDED TIME FOR POINTS TO BE DISTRIBUTED.
It is not redundant, it helps to create a safer set up than not having it. Removing these guidelines open the door for a legal Q40 to race in Phx per the rules and after one heat he was eliminated because his plane wasnt in the INTENT of the sport. He came to race, under the rules that were vague, has left and never came back.

Tony Pacini

The wing chart itself doesn't prevent a legal Q40 from racing because "the chart" still allows a Q-40 size wing at 400 square inches. The chart in and of itself does not in any way control airframe outline or scale fidelity.

The chart could be made to indirectly disallow Q-40 wings by simply increasing the required minimum area to greater than that of Q-40 airframes.