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What is considered SCALE

Old 11-01-2015, 07:36 PM
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airraptor
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Default What is considered SCALE

What does scale mean?
Old 11-03-2015, 10:16 AM
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Tony Pacini
 
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".......approximately resemble the scale outlines of their full scale counterpart....".

What we really need to define is "approximately resemble". Both words allow for quite a bit of wiggle room
Old 11-03-2015, 05:43 PM
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impossible to make rules to accurately describe scale. You need a committee to pre approve or deny any airframes based on their "opinions"
Scale after all is an opinion.
Form a race committee and go from there.
Old 11-05-2015, 09:23 AM
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This question would not even have to be asked if folks would understand
that it is not necessary to try and stretch the rules for speed in this form of racing.

But, since we can't all put on our big boy pants and play within the rules, well, here we are.

Simply put, a properly done "scale" warbird will look like the full scale plane without squinting to the point of blindness from fifteen feet away.

I propose the use of templates laser cut of 3-view drawings on hard card stock or thin metal, of the most popular planes that seem to get stretched out and all skinnified up.
These templates could be cut with outlines that show incremental increases I wing area that when compared with chord would show obvious deviations in planform.
Likewise for the top and side view of the fuselage.
Simple and accurate.
Old 11-05-2015, 08:16 PM
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In addition some better representation on actual paint schemes, this is more unsettling to me then the deviation to outline. There are a lot of choices to choose from the many warbird schemes as well as the Reno, Thompson, and Mohave. I was considering recomending just showing a picture of the plane your trying to mimic at the time of safety inspection would work for me. Just my two cents...

Last edited by tdstaf; 11-05-2015 at 08:19 PM.
Old 11-05-2015, 08:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Tony Pacini
".......approximately resemble the scale outlines of their full scale counterpart....".

What we really need to define is "approximately resemble". Both words allow for quite a bit of wiggle room

And painted to resemble their full size counter part..
Old 11-06-2015, 11:17 AM
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I'm going to be the wet towel and say what we have in place works so why mess with it to appease a small percentage of guys. Scale paint schemes ( military ) are difficult to see, that's what the schemes were designed to do. We as racers have always pushed the rules, we like to improve upon our last effort. That's the racers persona. Now take that away and confine what we can build add build time to an airplane with a limited lifespan and you are going to loose participation. If you can build a more scale airplane that is capable of the breakout then really what does it matter if my wing is a tad more high aspect ratio then exact scale?
Old 11-07-2015, 09:52 PM
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Hi Tommygun,

Along time ago in a far away place, the Quarter midget guys tried to use gauges/templates to verify the wing thickness for this class. There were guys that followed the rules and their planes passed the inspection gauge test no problem. However it was the guys who made their planes to the absolute minimum or so they said and if it didn't pass the gauge test, then the guy would scream and complain that the gauge was faulty or inaccurate etc., etc.

So after allot of complaints by the squealers, the gauges were deleted so the CD wouldn't have to spend 45 min listening to someone who's plane didn't pass inspection but, thought ( In sometimes a very loud and vocal manner) our (Insert favorite colorful meta-fore ! ) gauges were the problem and he should be allowed to race. Personally, I would have DQ'd the guys for the pitas that they were and for taking up valuable racing time.

So no, I don't believe the template/gauge idea would work for making sure the planes are scale. Too many variables and complainers. Its supposed to be fun don't you know and not an argument.

Carlos G.
Old 11-08-2015, 02:36 AM
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Originally Posted by tdstaf
And painted to resemble their full size counter part..
How do you cope if several racers pick the same color scheme?
Old 11-08-2015, 05:28 AM
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So then Carlos,
By your logic, we should just throw away the rules for all events and do what ever any individual wants.
Hmmmm, anarchy racing.....
Nope, I can't abide.

However, based upon the feedback, all I seem to hear from all angles is that this or that "can't be done" when it comes to trying to maintain some resemblance to scale accuracy.
All I can say to that is that, you can't do that which you don't want to do.
With no enforcement of the rules, this situation will not get better.

I guess all I can do at this point is hope that the owners of the malnourished vendettas, stilettos, mustangs and bearcats and macchis will give their planes a sandwich every now and then.

Last edited by Tommy_Gun; 11-08-2015 at 05:30 AM.
Old 11-08-2015, 07:47 AM
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Hi Tommy,

Sadly, this was a fact that did happen and as you say the planes began to look a bit "Twiggy" . All Im saying is that there will always be those that challenge the agreed upon rules irregardless of how they are determined or enforced. Once you cave in to them, then the game will die a slow death.

Some will call it the progress of the class of racing you are participating in while others call it cheating. Just look at Quarter Midget from the beginning to its end. Quarter Midget racing was founded as a cheaper, slower version of Formula 1. Like Q500, it was suppose to be a place for entry level participation for its time in the early Seventies. As it "progressed", the rules that were there to keep it slow and cheap fell by the wayside and towards the end speeds were up along with the costs and the number of people racing faded to nothing.

Not logic, just the facts

Hopefully if someone such as yourself should start a scale class of racing, please consider how are you going to enforce what ever rules everyone should follow. Then determine out how to address the evolution of the class to protect its original intent. My hat is off to you if you can figure that one out!

Carlos G.
Old 11-08-2015, 09:24 AM
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At this point it's difficult to put the genie back in the bottle. Between doing away with static judging (which used to count for half of your score) and lowering the breakouts, it's not surprising that the planes have slimmed down a bit in order to retain a competitive margin. Sure, you can go fast enough to win with a scale airframe, but who wants to work that hard when you don't have to? I'm not saying it's right, but it's somewhat understandable. The rules only require "....approximately resemble.....", so that's as hard as anyone has to try.

Last edited by Tony Pacini; 11-08-2015 at 12:22 PM.
Old 11-08-2015, 09:16 PM
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No one is stretching the rules. Your plane you were flying at the champ race isn't a "properly done "scale" warbird"

Originally Posted by Tommy_Gun
This question would not even have to be asked if folks would understand
that it is not necessary to try and stretch the rules for speed in this form of racing.

But, since we can't all put on our big boy pants and play within the rules, well, here we are.

Simply put, a properly done "scale" warbird will look like the full scale plane without squinting to the point of blindness from fifteen feet away.

I propose the use of templates laser cut of 3-view drawings on hard card stock or thin metal, of the most popular planes that seem to get stretched out and all skinnified up.
These templates could be cut with outlines that show incremental increases I wing area that when compared with chord would show obvious deviations in planform.
Likewise for the top and side view of the fuselage.
Simple and accurate.

Last edited by airraptor; 11-08-2015 at 09:34 PM.
Old 11-09-2015, 09:19 AM
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Please tell me that was an attempt at humor.
Or are you being intentionally obtuse.
Note that I'm not claiming my P-40 is dead on perfect scale. It is however to the average "warbird person" plainly and obviously a model of a P-40 Warhawk. It is built stock from the kyosho arf and recovered with a color scheme of my liking due to the need to strip the arf for proper reinforcement.

Also, for those that are mentioning the choice of color and finish. Sure, it would be nice if they were done to represent a full scale plane, but that is not the issue. There is no speed, performance improvement gained or lost by the choice of colors.

The intentional reduction in cross section of the fuselage and planform of the wing taken to the extremes we are seeing does generate an improvement in speed that a more realistic looking plane dies not have.

Funny, those protesting the loudest......well you know.
Old 11-09-2015, 09:51 AM
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Tommy no one is protesting but you.
Your opinion is the planes need to be more scale but by the rules they do not have to be as scale as you want them to be.

I do my planes up as the original planes color scheme because that is what I like to do. Do I go to everyone and complain that their plane isn't the correct color scheme? No as I don't try to force my opinion on everyone else. This is a hobby and we all like to do things differently.

Tommy what I say to you if you want a more scale racing venue I suggest you get your CD certification, bring up to the club that you want to run an event and have a race with the rules you like.
Old 11-11-2015, 12:13 AM
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I was going to not chime in but this is getting way out of control. We have a system that is working great and growing. Putting a bunch of extra rules in is going to start killing our participation. This is a dam stand off scale rc toy adult planes that we race for the fun of it and get some of us away from the real life out there. As the CD of most of the races, I do not want to start adding in a bunch of rules that will piss people off like the SWRA did!!!!!!!!

Sorry for getting pissed off but a group of us have been working our asses off to make these race run smooth and do everything we can to make it keep growing. Hell we must be doing something right as the Warbird Racing is going to have Nats with SAMs rules with some changes. Adding in a bunch of rules and lots of extra things to do such as templates is going to cause way to much work for the CDs. There is so much stuff we have to do already to get a race to a successful start and have a complete successful race overall.

The SAM CD's will look at the plane and let the pilot know if there is a problem.

Thanks and have a great day!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Old 11-11-2015, 12:27 AM
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Bottom line is we go out to race to have fun and get everyone together to enjoy being together and compete. Lets not make it so complicated. as long as you can stand about 10 feet away and people that know what the plane resembles as a warbird is what this racing is about. Not measuring every part of an airplane and getting so much into tech like the SWRA.

Let just go out and have fun!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Old 11-20-2015, 11:22 AM
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@airraptor
Just because I am the only one you see posting does not mean I am alone in my opinions.
I think you might be surprised at the number of participants that agree with me on the direction this is going.
What you fail to understand is that this is not a new issue. Rather, it is a recurring problem that has to be dealt with on a semi regular basis when some folks that dont "get it" with respect to the spirit of our warbird racing event.
Take a look at the history of our races at SAMs thru the years on this forum and on the various places you can view images of our events.
Here are a few albums from some years ago, https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/myphotos
You will find that this is nothing new. Every so often, a few people in the Gold class will lose sight of the goal, and decide they want to get into a pissing contest with respect to who can build the fastest plane. Doing this typically leads them down the path of straying in an obvious fashion from the scale outline of the plane they mean to represent in an effort to go faster.
Faster than they really need to I might add. With the breakout time we use, there is NO NEED to deviate from scale outline of any plane from history that qualifies as a warbird racer, or a Reno Unlimited Racer.
If you want to take any of this personal that is your issue.
This type of racing drew my interest not because of the speeds we can make the planes go. Sure it's fun when you run right at the breakout. But thats not what captured my passion. It was the fun of watching semi accurate representations of full scale warbirds racing that really kept me in this sport.
If you want to get into a pure speed contest, there are other forms of RC racing that are capable of higher speeds that I'm sure you'd be happy with.
To suggest that I should go and find my fun elsewhere is a bit of an arrogant this to say. When in truth, I am the one participating in what I prefer.
Now this may ruffle a few feathers , but I can't leave it unsaid.
Just because the rules aren't being properly enforced does not mean that you are right and I am wrong.
What we have is a situation where the organizers are afraid of scaring off some racers with enforcement of the rules in question here.
I too would rather everyone kept participating. But, with the understanding that the planes they bring to compete with should look more correct with respect to the wing planform and the side view proflies.
As I have already stated, I'm not counting rivets or measuring anything. We all KNOW what looks right and what doesn't.
Also, I'm not talking about banning any planes currently in use. Just know that if the organizers would implement enforcement, that in the next season, you will be expected to meet the rules, or count on being penalized in some fashion for not doing so.
"The only models qualified to be entered in a SAM Warbird event must be scale* models replicating heavier than air, fixed wing, piston engine powered, man carrying, fighter or fighter-bomber aircraft that were in production (or prototype aircraft intended for production that were flight tested) after January 1, 1937, or scale models of non-military aircraft that have raced in the unlimited category of the Reno Air Races.
*scale – models that do not approximately resemble the scale outlines of their full scale counterpart are not permitted. One such example would be the Phoenix Models Strega. Pilots should contact the CD with questions regarding acceptable aircraft prior to the event."

Plainly this rule needs to be edited to not the Mk1 Strega as the new Mk2 is a much more accurate version of the basic P-51 that the Strega was built from.


I tired of typing this for now so I'll just leave you all with some images for consideration.
Sorry if the following images hurt some feelings, but I gotta be me.
Credit to Taichiro Yama****a for the scale drawings from this site. http://www.taichiunlimiteddrawings.com.

Pretty good here,
Same plane, but ....?
This too looks good,
As compared to,..?

~

Here is how a Stiletto wing should look,
And of course , The Bear,
I will continue this later, Goin to go flying right now...
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Last edited by Tommy_Gun; 11-21-2015 at 08:31 AM.
Old 11-20-2015, 11:41 AM
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Tommy,
One thing i am going to say is you are talking crap about the organizers and you are not correct and maybe before talking about people that put in many and i am talking many hours to put these races on for the good of the rc community, maybe you should try and put a race on. I understand what you are saying but there are alot more to this then what you are talking about. WE ARE FOLLOWING THE RULES AND IT IS A STAND OFF SCALE.

Unfortunately we are unable to please everyone and like i said before, the organizers must be doing something right as this racing is growing.

I dont want to be a ***** but when you start slashing on the people that put all there heart and time into putting these on and dont get paid for it, i am going to take it personal. This is not our dam job, it is a hobby!!!!!!!
Old 11-20-2015, 12:10 PM
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JR I think you are doing an awesome job and this form of racing would not be here if it wasn't for your effort you put into it.

Last edited by airraptor; 11-20-2015 at 12:18 PM.
Old 11-21-2015, 08:15 AM
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Trashman,
Reread my post and tell me where I spoke in a disparaging fashion of ANY of the organizers.
It didn't happen.
I am sorry that you took any offense to my views.
Of course I realize the hard work and effort you put into these events. I have been there plenty to offer my help and you know it.
And I will continue to do so.
Unfortunately, the organizers are being placed in an untenable position due to desire of those that want to go FastFast at almost any cost.
The rules read
"The only models qualified to be entered in a SAM Warbird event must be scale* models replicating heavier than air, fixed wing, piston engine powered, man carrying, fighter or fighter-bomber aircraft that were in production (or prototype aircraft intended for production that were flight tested) after January 1, 1937, or scale models of non-military aircraft that have raced in the unlimited category of the Reno Air Races.
*scale – models that do not approximately resemble the scale outlines of their full scale counterpart are not permitted. One such example would be the Phoenix Models Strega. Pilots should contact the CD with questions regarding acceptable aircraft prior to the event."

Plainly this rule needs to be edited to not the Mk1 Strega as the new Mk2 is a much more accurate version of the basic P-51 that the Strega was built from.

As obvious as this rule is to me, it would seem to be too loosely written as it is allowing some to think that their obviously skinnified racers are perfectly acceptable.
Perhaps it is time to find wording or methods to keep this from straying any further.
ONCE AGAIN I WILL STATE,
I am NOT trying to eliminate anyone from using a current plane in the immediate future.
Just saying that in my opinion, sorry, am I allowed to have one?
Yes, in my opinion, things should be done to let participants know that more effort should be made towards the goal of keeping things more scale than some of the planes we are seeing. Or they may be penalized at the event.
Old 11-21-2015, 09:12 AM
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What planes do you consider "skinny" State them all so I know?
Old 11-21-2015, 04:04 PM
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Oh Jeff, Jeff, Jeff.............
Old 11-22-2015, 09:17 AM
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The Scale Combat guys have some definitions for "scale" - and manage to handle it without fuss.

"3.2 Aircraft must resemble their full-scale counterparts. (...) All deviations from scale outline must be within ten (10) percent of each other and within ten (10) percent of scale, and retain scale shape and proportions. For example, scaling a model’s wingspan up 10% and the fuselage down 10% is not allowed. (...)

3.2.1 The Contest Director shall determine accuracy-of-scale by simple visual inspection at 15 feet and may, at his discretion, request from the pilot a three-view drawing or photo, to help in determining scale fidelity. The burden of proof of scale fidelity shall reside solely with the pilot of the aircraft.
"
...
http://www.rccombat.com/documents/20...%20v2009-1.pdf

(I think there are other organizations with detail differences in scale rules, but with the same general idea)
Old 11-22-2015, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by perttime
The Scale Combat guys have some definitions for "scale" - and manage to handle it without fuss.

"3.2 Aircraft must resemble their full-scale counterparts. (...) All deviations from scale outline must be within ten (10) percent of each other and within ten (10) percent of scale, and retain scale shape and proportions. For example, scaling a model’s wingspan up 10% and the fuselage down 10% is not allowed. (...)

3.2.1 The Contest Director shall determine accuracy-of-scale by simple visual inspection at 15 feet and may, at his discretion, request from the pilot a three-view drawing or photo, to help in determining scale fidelity. The burden of proof of scale fidelity shall reside solely with the pilot of the aircraft.
"
...
http://www.rccombat.com/documents/20...%20v2009-1.pdf

(I think there are other organizations with detail differences in scale rules, but with the same general idea)
Thanks perttime..
I forgot about when I used to fly scale combat .
This is exactly the kind of stuff I was talking about and it only takes a few seconds when the planes are getting their safety inspection.

Last edited by tdstaf; 11-22-2015 at 09:57 AM.

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