Warbird Chamionship race afterthoughts
11-08-2015, 08:01 PM
#1
Warbird Chamionship race afterthoughts
Wow, what a great weekend. Lots of great racing! First off I want to give a huge thanks to Marty Flood for the countless hours he invested into this event. The Host club, Fresno modelers for giving us access to their field for the weekend as well as several of their members volunteering their time to work the race. As we all know through Marty's and a few others efforts we are going to bring Warbird racing to the national level and it is planned to have warbird racing at next years Nats. The format for this race as I understand it was somewhat of a test for what is to be run at the Nats. Personally I did have some reservations about a few aspects but wanted to fly the event with an open mind before voicing any concerns. Overall I think the event went well but obviously there is a reason for me to want to open up a discussion here. I want to stress that I am not making these remarks to complain but more to ensure the success of Warbird racing on a national level. These are just my suggestions and really nothing more.
Race Matrix, I felt that the colored identification decals made it easier for the pylon judges but I feel that it took some of the randomness out of it. There were only 4 color groups and IMO that ment that I was unable to race 25% of the guys in my class. I also feel that flying from the same pilot station all weekend takes some of the challenge away as opposed to rotating pilot stations. The single thing that I felt needed to be different with the Matrix is that most heats were 3 airplanes. Except for heats that I and another gold pilot flew which were 4 airplane heats. Granted this didn't happen every heat as always the class thins some during the course of the weekend.
Mains. I would have liked to see an A and B mains flown by each classes top 8 pilots. In the gold main we had 3 guys break out and in Silver we had 2 I think. As long as this is a breakout type race I think a breakout in the main should take that pilot off the podium. If someone in the A main breaks out then someone in the B main moves up.
I do not want anyone to take these comments to heart and feel that they put a ton of effort into the event and I am unappreciative. I do understand and appreciate everything Marty and many others did to make this happen. I also want to participate in a Nats event that will thrive and grow.
Race Matrix, I felt that the colored identification decals made it easier for the pylon judges but I feel that it took some of the randomness out of it. There were only 4 color groups and IMO that ment that I was unable to race 25% of the guys in my class. I also feel that flying from the same pilot station all weekend takes some of the challenge away as opposed to rotating pilot stations. The single thing that I felt needed to be different with the Matrix is that most heats were 3 airplanes. Except for heats that I and another gold pilot flew which were 4 airplane heats. Granted this didn't happen every heat as always the class thins some during the course of the weekend.
Mains. I would have liked to see an A and B mains flown by each classes top 8 pilots. In the gold main we had 3 guys break out and in Silver we had 2 I think. As long as this is a breakout type race I think a breakout in the main should take that pilot off the podium. If someone in the A main breaks out then someone in the B main moves up.
I do not want anyone to take these comments to heart and feel that they put a ton of effort into the event and I am unappreciative. I do understand and appreciate everything Marty and many others did to make this happen. I also want to participate in a Nats event that will thrive and grow.
11-08-2015, 09:21 PM
#2
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After 2 days of racing I'll bet you guys are more than tired. Brings back memories when Scale judging was part of the game. Congrats to all that Survived.
I'm a little tired myself after volunteering to help Timpa.org with the Giant Scale meet this weekend, but I just wanted to say that my Son Scott has the same
thoughts on this matrix issue and agrees that flying from the same station eliminates part of the field you fly against and should be changed. Just ask Dean. He's had
to listen to him rant and rave about it race after race after race. Fortunately for Dean he didn't have to ride home with him as I did. I think it has to do with the way
the program was written and us RCPRO guys have learned to live with it. Not sure how it can be resolved, but maybe this is a start.
Anxious to see the results. Take care.
Dan Kelly - Tucson
I'm a little tired myself after volunteering to help Timpa.org with the Giant Scale meet this weekend, but I just wanted to say that my Son Scott has the same
thoughts on this matrix issue and agrees that flying from the same station eliminates part of the field you fly against and should be changed. Just ask Dean. He's had
to listen to him rant and rave about it race after race after race. Fortunately for Dean he didn't have to ride home with him as I did. I think it has to do with the way
the program was written and us RCPRO guys have learned to live with it. Not sure how it can be resolved, but maybe this is a start.
Anxious to see the results. Take care.
Dan Kelly - Tucson
11-09-2015, 09:26 AM
#3
I'll chime in to agree with all that speed stated above.
Well done.
I too would like to see the matrix setup changed.
The lack of chance to compete with those in your same flight station takes away from the potential outcome.
Also would like to have been able to do one more round before the finals.
Seems as though we had enough daylight for it.
I'll be back next year though.
Well done.
I too would like to see the matrix setup changed.
The lack of chance to compete with those in your same flight station takes away from the potential outcome.
Also would like to have been able to do one more round before the finals.
Seems as though we had enough daylight for it.
I'll be back next year though.
11-10-2015, 11:18 AM
#4
My Feedback: (66)
I like the color set up as it helps to speed up the event. with the colors you enter your teammate when you register and what this means is that you will never race your teammate so you dont have to use another caller.
The colors also help the pylon judges pick the correct plane that cut. I didn't hear one complaint about someone saying they didnt cut. Well there was one person that tried to cut and didn't get a cut lol.
with the colors sure you may not race 25% of the class your in but if you crunch the numbers on the drawing a card of a number way we do it now you race way less than of the class. with the colors you will race 75% of the class your in. I have been in races in the past where i have race the same two guys in three races. Random is just that random. color set up will allow you to race 75% of the field to give you a better race in my opinion.
The colors also help the pylon judges pick the correct plane that cut. I didn't hear one complaint about someone saying they didnt cut. Well there was one person that tried to cut and didn't get a cut lol.
with the colors sure you may not race 25% of the class your in but if you crunch the numbers on the drawing a card of a number way we do it now you race way less than of the class. with the colors you will race 75% of the class your in. I have been in races in the past where i have race the same two guys in three races. Random is just that random. color set up will allow you to race 75% of the field to give you a better race in my opinion.
11-12-2015, 10:50 PM
#6
Essentially there were four colors. High and low red and green. I liked the colors for id, but I'm still not ready to place judgement on the matrix. The format caused more heats which if it could be worked out either more rounds or pilots could be run or compete in the same amount of time. Who knows. Maybre a hybrid can be figured out. Worth thinking about.
11-13-2015, 10:40 AM
#7
My Feedback: (66)
The colors can work and the software is out there. One thing to think about is the all the racing like Q40, quickie and F1 use the colors. some of the races have 80+ people and they can run 6-8 rounds in two days. I do like racing 5 or more planes at once too as it is fun dogging all the other planes lol
11-14-2015, 02:31 AM
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I guess if you look at it that way there are 4. However, one year I had to work pylon 2 alone. I had all I could do just identifying which color it was let alone whether it was up or down. I'll admit I do have a color deficiency (Red/Green) and that might have played into it. With 4 distinct colors you would eliminate the up or down and cut down on the number of people working the cages. Just an Idea, and I don't think anyone can screw up White Vs Black......not even me. Ha.
11-14-2015, 11:09 AM
#9
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dan white and black is great when up close but from a distance it is harder to see than the Green and pink. The other issue with black and white is if a guy has a black or white wing. Usually when someone has a white or black wing they already have contrasting colors on it. From a distance these will fade together and make it hard to tell which it is. The green and pink has worked very well in the Q40, Quickie and F1 type racing for a long time. They have tried many variations and the Green and Pink is what they stuck with.
My goal either way is to speed up the races, gain more people racing and to grow this across the US. The green and pink is already accepted in many states for racing so I think it would be easier to get those into Warbird racing if some of the rules are the same. JMO though.
My goal either way is to speed up the races, gain more people racing and to grow this across the US. The green and pink is already accepted in many states for racing so I think it would be easier to get those into Warbird racing if some of the rules are the same. JMO though.
11-14-2015, 05:21 PM
#10
I had a really good time. Marty coordinated the event very successfully; and, the Fresno Club all did an outstanding job taking great care of us. This would be impressive for any event, but is even more impressive a result for a first-time event. I would not hesitate to return and participate, again.
I echo Speed’s opening comment/sentiment; “I want to stress that I am not making these remarks to complain, but more to ensure the success of Warbird racing on a national level. These are just my suggestions and really nothing more”; and offer the following (hopefully constructive) feedback:
I felt that the lane-color set-up, and initial matrixing, did much to speed up and maintain the flow of the event, while making sure that somewhat lesser-experienced workers would be able to be very successful and minimize potential errors in judging.
The negative impacts of the initial matrixing was that no revisions were ever made as attrition occurred.
I experienced the negative effects of this in the final “open round” of Silver, in trying to qualify for the trophy dash. I was in 5th place going into the this fifth round. As I recall, the 1st place pilot was so far ahead that he was all but untouchable - short of a breakout; but, under “normal” conditions, the others would have been vulnerable, as I needed to take just one more point than the pilots in 3rd and 4th place, or two against the pilot in second place to advance to the trophy dash.
Unfortunately, with no changes to the matrix that was completed prior to the first round of racing, none of the pilots already outside of the existing top 4 had even a fighting chance to impact the standings after the fourth round. The 1st place pilot just needed to go up and finish the race without breaking or cutting out, and his place in the trophy dash would be guaranteed; so that is exactly what he did -- as the two other pilots in his heat were in no position to challenge him. The second place pilot was in the same situation against his two competitors, with the same inevitable result. The 3rd and 4th place pilots greatly benefitted from a two-plane heat, by being guaranteed 1st and 2nd place points automatically, garnering their spots in the final trophy dash if they didn’t mess up So, they flew long and wide laps ensuring no cuts or breakouts, flying Bronze times. I needed a 1st place finish, if that would have even helped me at this point, but was in the only 4-plane heat of the round, so the odds were further stacked against me. Essentially, the fifth round of Silver was a waste of time, with nearly all of the pilots locked into a pre-determined matrix that meant the outcome could not, and therefore would not, change in any way that mattered.
I knew the rules at the beginning (although I did not realize that the matrix would never change as events and attrition unfolded), and fully accept the results. Likewise, if I were in the position the top pilots were in, I would have acted exactly the same . . . one would be a fool not to. I do not fault, nor intend to detract from them in any way, and congratulate their competitive performances and ultimate victory. You each flew the event smartly from the very beginning, and are truly top-notch. This is not me belly-aching. It is me trying to shed light on a potential limitation of this format, in its currently-existing form, especially because I know we all want to put on a truly impressive show at Nats.
When people are coming out to see what Scale Warbird Racing is all about, I would hate for them to encounter a round where there is little “true” racing action occurring, such as in the round I just described where pilots are: flying a 2-plane heat in big, lazy, relatively slow ovals (flying below break-out even at Bronze times); or, nearly as conservatively in 3-plane heats against pilots that do not represent a threat to them. In my opinion, to maintain the excitement level at Nats, such rounds should be re-matrixed. Instead of two 3-plane heats, a 2-plane heat, and a 4-plane heat, we should run three 4-plane heats. The more planes involved in a heat, the more exciting the race action for everyone.
Furthermore, I second the opinion that the top pilots should be placed in a position where they are still likely to have to “battle it out” against each other to ensure their position. (In other words, the A-, B-, and C-Main structure that Speed suggested earlier.) This helps to ensure that there is still at least a couple pilots in each heat that will have something at-stake, and will be motivated to perform at their best, thereby putting on a better show for the spectators. And while some might argue that a lane change of only certain pilots is “unfair”, I can tell you that as a lower-scoring pilot, I certainly would not have minded having to change my “high-green” Lane 3 assignment for a tangible, fighting-chance to improve my position towards hopefully entering the final Trophy dash.
Again, These are just my suggestions and really nothing more. I simply want to ensure the success of Warbird racing on a national level.
On a more personal note:I really enjoyed meeting you face-to-face, Gerald. For a relatively newer pilot, you are an awesome competitor. Additionally, you are a truly "quality" individual, and I greatly look forward to catching-up with you, and competing against you, at our next event.
And, "Young Gun", you showed everyone that you definitely "Came to race!" I am very proud of you.
Congratulations to all the victors on becoming the very first National Champions of Scale Warbird Racing! (I am envious!)
Ollie
I echo Speed’s opening comment/sentiment; “I want to stress that I am not making these remarks to complain, but more to ensure the success of Warbird racing on a national level. These are just my suggestions and really nothing more”; and offer the following (hopefully constructive) feedback:
I felt that the lane-color set-up, and initial matrixing, did much to speed up and maintain the flow of the event, while making sure that somewhat lesser-experienced workers would be able to be very successful and minimize potential errors in judging.
The negative impacts of the initial matrixing was that no revisions were ever made as attrition occurred.
I experienced the negative effects of this in the final “open round” of Silver, in trying to qualify for the trophy dash. I was in 5th place going into the this fifth round. As I recall, the 1st place pilot was so far ahead that he was all but untouchable - short of a breakout; but, under “normal” conditions, the others would have been vulnerable, as I needed to take just one more point than the pilots in 3rd and 4th place, or two against the pilot in second place to advance to the trophy dash.
Unfortunately, with no changes to the matrix that was completed prior to the first round of racing, none of the pilots already outside of the existing top 4 had even a fighting chance to impact the standings after the fourth round. The 1st place pilot just needed to go up and finish the race without breaking or cutting out, and his place in the trophy dash would be guaranteed; so that is exactly what he did -- as the two other pilots in his heat were in no position to challenge him. The second place pilot was in the same situation against his two competitors, with the same inevitable result. The 3rd and 4th place pilots greatly benefitted from a two-plane heat, by being guaranteed 1st and 2nd place points automatically, garnering their spots in the final trophy dash if they didn’t mess up So, they flew long and wide laps ensuring no cuts or breakouts, flying Bronze times. I needed a 1st place finish, if that would have even helped me at this point, but was in the only 4-plane heat of the round, so the odds were further stacked against me. Essentially, the fifth round of Silver was a waste of time, with nearly all of the pilots locked into a pre-determined matrix that meant the outcome could not, and therefore would not, change in any way that mattered.
I knew the rules at the beginning (although I did not realize that the matrix would never change as events and attrition unfolded), and fully accept the results. Likewise, if I were in the position the top pilots were in, I would have acted exactly the same . . . one would be a fool not to. I do not fault, nor intend to detract from them in any way, and congratulate their competitive performances and ultimate victory. You each flew the event smartly from the very beginning, and are truly top-notch. This is not me belly-aching. It is me trying to shed light on a potential limitation of this format, in its currently-existing form, especially because I know we all want to put on a truly impressive show at Nats.
When people are coming out to see what Scale Warbird Racing is all about, I would hate for them to encounter a round where there is little “true” racing action occurring, such as in the round I just described where pilots are: flying a 2-plane heat in big, lazy, relatively slow ovals (flying below break-out even at Bronze times); or, nearly as conservatively in 3-plane heats against pilots that do not represent a threat to them. In my opinion, to maintain the excitement level at Nats, such rounds should be re-matrixed. Instead of two 3-plane heats, a 2-plane heat, and a 4-plane heat, we should run three 4-plane heats. The more planes involved in a heat, the more exciting the race action for everyone.
Furthermore, I second the opinion that the top pilots should be placed in a position where they are still likely to have to “battle it out” against each other to ensure their position. (In other words, the A-, B-, and C-Main structure that Speed suggested earlier.) This helps to ensure that there is still at least a couple pilots in each heat that will have something at-stake, and will be motivated to perform at their best, thereby putting on a better show for the spectators. And while some might argue that a lane change of only certain pilots is “unfair”, I can tell you that as a lower-scoring pilot, I certainly would not have minded having to change my “high-green” Lane 3 assignment for a tangible, fighting-chance to improve my position towards hopefully entering the final Trophy dash.
Again, These are just my suggestions and really nothing more. I simply want to ensure the success of Warbird racing on a national level.
On a more personal note:I really enjoyed meeting you face-to-face, Gerald. For a relatively newer pilot, you are an awesome competitor. Additionally, you are a truly "quality" individual, and I greatly look forward to catching-up with you, and competing against you, at our next event.
And, "Young Gun", you showed everyone that you definitely "Came to race!" I am very proud of you.
Congratulations to all the victors on becoming the very first National Champions of Scale Warbird Racing! (I am envious!)
Ollie
11-16-2015, 08:40 AM
#12
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I second that Ollie. Gerald is a great guy. Fun to race against and hard to beat. I'm glad to hear he actually raced.
Just one other comment : Flying a solo race because of attrition/ matrix is no fun. Guaranteed 1st place in that heat and everyone flies long and slow. The worst part is all the heckling from the guys watching. Waste of time.
Dan-Tucson
Just one other comment : Flying a solo race because of attrition/ matrix is no fun. Guaranteed 1st place in that heat and everyone flies long and slow. The worst part is all the heckling from the guys watching. Waste of time.
Dan-Tucson
11-16-2015, 09:09 AM
#13
My Feedback: (66)
Dan with the way the matrix is run now by drawing cards or picking numbers you have the chance to race way less than 25%. The color setup gives you the chance to race 75% of the field. where with the random drawing each race you're in is random and you could race the same guys two or more times which has happened. With the color matrix who you race is determined on the first day and since it is set up you should be able to race most of the people in that class once. Or atleast that how I think it should be. I will have to get with the Q40 CD's and see how their matrix is set up. Either way I like the four color set up. Maybe could do a six color set up but i know the pylon judges can make a better call on cuts over the system we have now. I have heard many times the pylon judges say " Think it was the red plane with green stripe" when there is also a pink plane with blue strip racing at the same time lol
11-16-2015, 07:25 PM
#14
Dan with the way the matrix is run now by drawing cards or picking numbers you have the chance to race way less than 25%. The color setup gives you the chance to race 75% of the field. where with the random drawing each race you're in is random and you could race the same guys two or more times which has happened. With the color matrix who you race is determined on the first day and since it is set up you should be able to race most of the people in that class once. Or atleast that how I think it should be. I will have to get with the Q40 CD's and see how their matrix is set up. Either way I like the four color set up. Maybe could do a six color set up but i know the pylon judges can make a better call on cuts over the system we have now. I have heard many times the pylon judges say " Think it was the red plane with green stripe" when there is also a pink plane with blue strip racing at the same time lol
11-17-2015, 06:27 AM
#15
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I'm having trouble just remember everyone's name let alone colors ha. You don't want me working on it for sure. I just glad to see it being tossed around and maybe, just maybe someone will come up with a better way. What if you never get the race, never say never, okay.....seldom get to race the points leader? Who's the better racer? I've seen it happen. I don't like it. I don't know how to resolve it but I'll bet there's someone out there that can. Maybe the Q40 CD's can help. I don't know.
One last thing......There was a pink racer at one time Skids. I can't remember her name or the plane but I saw her with my own eyes.
Thanks guys.....keep it going....there's gotta be a better way.
One last thing......There was a pink racer at one time Skids. I can't remember her name or the plane but I saw her with my own eyes.
Thanks guys.....keep it going....there's gotta be a better way.
