Tommy_Gun

Have to disagree here Kevin,
It is "Warbird" racing we are discussing here.
The looks DO matter.

ChrisAttebery

My Feedback: (15)

Personally, I'd like it to be very clear where the line is. My modified Strega has a couple flaws. The stock cowl chin scoop is wrong and the vertical tail is too rounded where it meets the ventral fin. However, IMHO it's no more out of scale than the mustangs with the OBVIOUS wing planform changes, yet one is ok and the other is not.

I skipped racing at SAMS last year because I didn't want to stir the pot with my Strega. This year I built a MW Mustang and followed the herd, installed a YS, removed the scoop and built a turtledecked canopy so that it resembles Galloping Ghost or Stilleto. I also built a new vertical and rudder and tried to make it a little more scale as WM version was too rounded at the point where the vertical and ventral meet. I'm planning to race SAMS with the stock wing and build a foam core with a smaller area and cleaner airfoil for our races.

Steady Steve

I agree with Tommy, looks do matter. I think the reason that SAMS warbird racing is so successful is that they try to keep a tight leash on making sure your plane looks scale. I enjoy looking at other racers models and admire the workmanship and dedication they have to making them look like Reno racers or scale warbirds as much as enjoy racing my world models modified "Strega". Right now I am in the proccess of building "Miss Foxy Lady " a mustang that race in Reno in the early seventies.

Tommy_Gun

Chris,
Bring it and race for the Presidents Cup in June.
I think you will have a fun time with us.
You need to understand though.....we tend to get a little crazy during the day and once the awards ceremony starts up.
Tom

pjakew

My Feedback: (4)

Jimmy:

Im not knocking any of the more scale stuff (your Spitty included), my views focus on the heavily modified, chop-shop specials, that find their way into the Gold bracket. I think that the faster the class, the more the pilots will look for ways to streamline, reduce drag, and in general "fudge" on scale appearence. It must be an issue if big John is having to tell pilots to put belly scoops on their planes that are supposed to have them. From wing area reduction, thinner wing airfoils, and removal of any scale drag components, its seems that these "temptations" to reduce any speed reduction variables will be apparent when pilots are looking to shave any time off their total. With that said, it seems logical that those in the slower classes are not in a similar boat to look for ways to speed their plane up. It seems funny that you would have people flying the Pheonix Strega in the bronze class. I see it as a no-brainer that you could take any general warbird airframe, keep it stock, and fly it in bronze without any issue. I have not modified my racer and it breaks out far more than I care for it to. So you could build a genuine scale warbird (which mine is not) of ANY model plane and race it in bronze and be successful with it. Can that really be said for a Gold Racer....I don't know? In any event, I sure like seeing the Spits and the P-47 in the Gold heats.

Hey Jimmy, when will you guys have the point totals for the races?

Steady Steve

Hey Jake,I think you are confusing stock with scale. You would have to beef up a stock world model kit to race gold for safety reasons{wing and elevator reinforcement}.But as far as scale if you look into the history of Reno racers,you will find p-51 mustangs with lear jet wings{Miss AshleyII} and steamline canopies only big enough for the pilots head{F8F bearcat Smirnoff} and most of the unlimited gold planes of Reno went from 34 foot wingspan to 31 foot wingspan and smaller{Strega,Dago Red, Rare Bear.}

pjakew

My Feedback: (4)

Im not talking about reinforcement, I am focused on un-scale airframe modifications that Tommy is addressing. Leaving off scale components to try to reduce drag is an issue if it becomes the status quo. If your plane is supposed to have a scoop, put one on. If it is supposed to have exhaust stacks, put them on, If it has a supercharger intake...you get the picture. If your going by the design of a Reno racer and it is missing those things, fine, just as long as it mirrors that of the actual plane. If you are building a Glamourous Glenn with no belly scoop, no exhaust stacks, and a paper thin airfoi wing with no dihedral, and the length of the wing is nowhere close in proportion to the original plane you are doing a diservice to the "spirit" of what the SAMS Club is trying to promote.

PLANEBENDER

My Feedback: (3)

I coulden't help jumping in here, I hope no one is too bent about my new plane. We do work hard to NOT give in to temtation and start reinventing the "P-47 Wheel" I think our plane still has a true P-47 outline on both sides and top. HOWEVER! I decided to give it a fresh racing look in the colors dept. I really love the white and black but out of sheer respect to Jimmy not to mention getting the cage workers confused decided to go with Red and white instead. Hell, at my age I'm lucky to still barely be able to fly much less see the darn thing.
I had fun last weekend! We sure diden't win but had fun just the same.

Dave

Iron Dog

Okay, I've been watching all this go on for a long time now, with the wing area charts, the "legality" of the Martin-Baker MB-3, etc, and feel compelled to chime in now, too.

I agree with Jake. He's not confusing "stock" with "scale"; I know exactly what he means.

To run in Bronze, you can leave the plane stock. So assuming the kit/ARF is scale to begin with, you can build it as it was intended, put a YS 53 or 63(or anybody elses generic80 -91 4-stroke) and be competitive. I won the High Points Championship in Bronze 3 times running just a YS .53 on my old P-39. In other words, you can build it "as is" (which hopefully is scale) and not have to worry aboutwhat I havecontinuously overheard allthe Gold class guys talking about e-v-e-r-y year for the last6 years:

[*]"I gotta eliminate more drag" . . ."Can we get away with notputting the exhaust stacks on there?""How many other P-51 racerswere there without belly scoops?" "What if we clip the wing?"What would happen ifwe clip the stab, too?" What if we round off the scoop and make it smaller so that technically there is a scoop, so they can't call us on that one, but it doesn't hurt the plane's speed?"[*]"We need to redesign the wing with a faster airfoil."[*]"I'm gonna have to runwith a bigger engine. What modifications are we gonna have to make tofit a YS 140 in there?"[*]"What if we put a bigger spinner on there to make it more aerodynamic?" You think that'll cut enough drag without causing the engine to overheat?"(the radial engine guys)[*]"I know the actual plane had the ailerons running all the way to the tips, but I thinkit ispicking up vortices. So I think on the next wing I'm gonna install special tips; or just move the ailerons in more and make them smaller, too.I don't need that much deflection at those speeds!"[*]etc., etc.[/list]
But lets face it, most of us run "sport-scale" designs, andeveryone has there own opinion as to what the definition of this term truly means; much less where the line should be drawn. For example:


2 years ago I showed up to the first race of the season with a brand new Red Baron designand caught a bunch of crap because I didn't have enough time before the race to make andfit a bellyscoop.I made a nearly scale clipped wing. I went through the trouble of making a plug and mold, then molded a fiberglass cowl that had the same scale outlines as the real Red Baron. I redesigned and fabricated scale tail surfaces, because the Red Baron crewhad totally changed its tail design. I also didn't want it confusing for the workerswith all the other red and white colored Red Barons, so I went through the extra trouble of hand-painting a custom color scheme. Every modification that I could make to make it a nearly exact scale outline to the real thing was done. I intended to makethe bellyscoop, too; but unfortunately,everything else wasso much work, that I couln't get far enough, before the race. (As a further note: It has since been made and added to that same wing; although now on a new fuse now, and it raced last week.)

Now, that same very vocal person who insulted all my hard work, essentially calling my plane a "b@st@rdization",has had no problems with3 otherpilot's WM P-51s done up in the Red Baron scheme. These did not have the modified tail . . . in fact,they sported the stock WM tail which isnot even scale to a standard P-51, much less Red Baron! They all ran stock WM or Great Planes cowls, which give the nose section a completely different shapethan would be scale. (As asidenotethat WM cowl and tailare obominations towards the scale appearance ofany P-51, in my opinion . . . and "yes" I am embarassed to havethe cowlon my current model. Even though I made a scale tail, why do you think I ran the P-47 as my primary, even though the P-51 has thefaster times I needed; and, why I'm working so hard on more planes right now?!)

So, all things considered,which of us ends up with the "more" scale . . . and therefore more acceptable . . .plane?


Why can a barely modified WM P-51done as"World Jet" fly without scrutiny because it has the right basic colors, yet the totally redesigned cowl,tail, and very uniquely rounded, hump-shape to the cut -down canopy are not addressed at all? What about the oversized spinner to occomodate the counter-rotating props?

If everyotherMustang modeledhas to have a scoop, then inaddition to correcting the wrong shape of the WM vertical fin and rudder used, why don't the Stiletto models out therehave to display the wing radiators and radiator boil-off system that replaced its belly scoop?

If you put an oversized YS 110 engine ina model of a Spitfire Mk.I,that was designed for nothing bigger than a YS63, but your buddy Ollie makes you a new cowl that is extended to fit the larger engine and convert this model into a Mk. XIV, but you don't enlarge and re-shapethe vertical fin and rudder, so technically it isn't reallyeither version, is this scale-enough?

Please realize that it is not my intention to offend anyone. In fact, I'll point the finger at myself and my past scale discrepencies again, right now:

I came out for EVERY race with that old P-39 for 4 years and EVERY time had multiple people repeatedly tell me how beautiful it was, or that it was their favorite of all the planes out there, yet I knew that thing wasn't scale at all! The fuse was too narrow, the nose section wasn't as long as the real deal and the very front had slab sides initially to fit the available cowlinstead ofan oval shape like the rest of the fuse,it didn't have retracts, the wing and tail were extended (heck, the wing was kit-bashed from a Bridi Vagabond - it was never originally designed to bea P-39 wing. You could look at it and immediately tell it was a P-39, and it looked good and seemed to be a crowd favorite, but it was flawed.

Again, it is tough to know where to draw the line. Everyone has there own opinion on this topic, and beauty truly is in the eye of the beholder, anyway.


I could go on, but the point of all this is that:
This sport is our passion, so most of us really know our planes! We can allgo around acting superior, each pointing out everybody else's scale oversights and flaws and make snide comments behind each others backs, as well asoccasionally over the PA (unfortunately);

OR,


we can simply and TRULY do our own personal best to accurately model our planes to the subjects intended, and just keep havingone-hell-uv-a-lot-of fun with each other, as we always have!


I don't think we will ever get "the line" drawn perfectly clear, here. There are just too many variables and opinions, and it is not realistic to think that we can anticipate them all. If you simply realizethat this is not intended to simply bea "fly what you brung"-style event, and truly take a little pride in your workmanship, you should be fine.And, Idon't think that it is wrong forSAM to insist that modelers do take this pride if they want to compete in this event. If you don't want to put extra work into a plane, then all I can say is, "We will miss you, and hope someday you change your mind, but for now perhaps this is not the event for you." Honestly, I don'tsee much point to all this going back and forth about what is. . .or should be . . ."legal".Realize the intent, build accordingly (if you are going to try to push the boundaries a little and can live with yourself for trying to get away with that, then ask a CD if it will be acceptable), and most of all just come out with us andHAVEFUN!

Can we all move on, now?! If we took all the time we've spent splitting hairs over this, we could of built all those scale extras, and this wouldn't be much of a problem in the first place!

And one last thing . . .

Tosome of the$h!t-talkers who think youare somehow superior thanthe other racing classes/buildersout there (and you know who you are) I say. . . "It can be fun, but onlyto a point. There's a difference betweengood-natured ribbing and what you sometimes allow yourself to be degraded to when you, in turn,degrade others. You need to realize when you are going too far, andyour remarksplainly become insulting.Knock it off and be a bigger person than that! This is my passion, and I don't wantit suffering because you never learned how to 'play nice' as a kid!"

I am truly sorryif I causeany offence, but I feltthis needed to be said.

Steady Steve

I apologize if I offended anyone,all I am trying to say that I find it very cool when some one replicates a full scale Reno racer to the tee.

ChrisAttebery

My Feedback: (15)

I think we all agree that there needs to be some leeway, bu that there are always cases where someone stretches it a little too far.

As far as color schemes go I think that should be left to the pilots. They shouldn't have to be scale. We don't need 6 Stillettos or Dagos or Stregas all flying in the same heat. I think that Ollies Red P-47 looks great. It is pretty scale with a "Fantasy" color scheme. I'd rather see that than a Strega with a correct scheme and a ton of fudge in the scale department.

I think that there should be a list of allowable mods and manditory items. For example P-51s should be able to clip the wing, go scoopless, and turtledeck the canopy, but the mods should be faily scale. They should all have a semiscale exhaust. Some of the "Stilletoized" canopies are REALLY out of scale. As I already mentioned the wings that are too thin and have a chord that is too short look out of place.

I don't have time to build my own. That's a fact of life. So for now I will follow the precedent set by others.

BTW: If I could find a more scale fiberglass P-51 or Stilletto ARF or kit in 40 size I would jump on it, but there are none available that I have seen.

Tommy_Gun

Lets back off with all the apologies already.
Sheesh!

There are rules.
Do your best to play by the rules.
Expect that if you don't abide by the rules, there will be a penalty.
Lets quit worrying so much about offending folks and instead make all understand that if you wanna play, you need to know the rules and stay within them.
Otherwise, lets just all go race quickees.

Iron Dog

Dave, I don't think anyone was bent out of shape about your P-47. That thing was gorgeous! And I'm not saying that because I had anything to do with its construction . . . 'cause aside from the canopy and cowl, I didn't!

Just to set the record straight and give credit where it is due, that was not one of my composite fuses. That beauty was scratch-built from wood by Jim Sweeney, and covered so beautifully by Dave.

There is NOTHING wrong with having a custom paint scheme. that's what most of the popular Reno racers do to their planes because they want to stand out from the crowd; and, we are trying our best to emulate them, right?!

Furthermore, people that take the time to do a beautiful job refinishing it, rather than just slap something together, not only give us a little "eye candy", but help us all discriminate between all the different planes and pilots out there. There's nothingthat bothers memore on race daythan going up against three nearly stock WM Dago Reds, and can't tell which is the one piloted by the one guy I need tobeworried aboutbeating in that heat in order to place at the end of the day.

So, for what it is worth, I loved thecustom color scheme you did on your P-47, and that Jason did on his last year (now that one I built); andI say, they truly looked like Reno racers and totally fit with the intent of the event, so"keep 'em comin'."

kimod

Thanks for helping me decide on my next plane Ollie....It's gonna be a stock Dago Red!!!!LOL

Tommy_Gun

kimod is a paste eater!

Iron Dog

Seconded!

Jimmy Skids

My Feedback: (2)

My 2 Cents.....

If in the air you can't tell what it is supposed to be from it's outline then it doesn't have a scale enough outline..... I believe this is what Tommy was saying as well. Those planes should be addressed by the CD's (If they haven't already) ((I'm not a CD, I just try to help out)).

Iron Dog,
I hope you are OK with my outline in the air..... and thanks for the cowls, you're glass work is awesome, now get back to work on the trinity thread.

PlaneBender,
Loved your color scheme and really appreciate your comment - thank you, I've kinda made Black with a little red on the tail my signature.... and of course your outline is more then exceptable in my book.

Chris,
I believe with the changes to "scale" up your Strega it is a lot closer and would probably pass for SAM's.... again, not a CD so it isn't up to me.... bring it as a back up and we'll talk to the CD's..... I'll try to put in a good word.

Kimod,
Stop eating glue. Let me know when the Dago build takes place and I'll mod your tail wheel.

Jake,
Not sure on the scores, but if you email me I'll send you copies from the race.... and thank you for the comments as well... glad you were able to make the race. JR should be working on a Series YTD spreadsheet but I think he has some plans with the wife this week.

Steady Steve,
Good additions.... just didn't want to leave you out

Tommy Gun,
For a round nose guy you're alright...... slow, but alright..... give those Morgan Hill boyz a run this week end.

Skids

Todd Chandler

Any one building a Dago needs to watch out. Iron dog put a bounty out on mine last weekend. As caller for Leadfoot he guided him like an air to air missle right at me as I was exiting the North pylon. With neighbors and friends like them who needs enemies.

Skids, where do I get in line for free tail wheel mods?

Kimo, put the glue down.

Tom, don't listen to these guys you are too fast! (just looks slow cause your racing a bronzer in gold Go kick as$.

I'm working on a racer for the President cup and with a little luck and lots of nitro will be racing a kyosho Spit .63s in Silver.

pjakew

My Feedback: (4)

I like Jimmy's stance on the whole thing:

I ain't a CD, so why should I worry about it?
My planes are O.K. to race, and that is all I should worry about.
Nobody in my class has any advantage over me, and I think my plane is "scale" enough.
The CD's are doing a good job (seen any Pheonix Stregas out there?)
As long as I am keeping true to the racing spirit, that is all that should matter.

I make the motion that this thread should be done, and let us open a new one for the next race (and the smack talk) .

Iron Dog

Skids,

You know that I love your plane. I'm a huge fan of the Kyosho Spit. I've had two of them (and want a third), and trying to put a larger engine in them is why I made the lengthened cowl in the first place, so you know I couldn't possibly have a problem with it. I'm glad you realize that I wasn't trying to pick on you, your plane, or anyone else's specifically for that matter. I just needed some examples to cite, and because I've helped you with cowls over the years, your plane just happened to come to mind. As I said, we canALLfind discrepencies with EVERY plane that comes out there. I don't want us to start getting that petty, and the tone of where some of these comments that been posted between the various clubs and pilots seemed like we were quickly going to descend in the wrongdirection. Maybe it is the teacher in me, but I felt it necessary to try a little "re-direction."

Because, BOTTOMLINE:

I just want to go out and have fun, doing what I love, and sharing the experience with outstanding people. To me this is what it is all about. And that is exactly what I've always gotten, the vast majority of the time, every time I've come out to a SAM's race since first starting in this hobby back in 1995. So, all the other stuff just doesn't matter that much, in the end. We've made the point to kick it up a notch in scale fidelity or be prepared to hear about it. Most of us will do so. But, I think we also have to bear in mind that some are just starting out, and don't necessarily have theprerequisite building skills, yet. We want to support andnurture their growth and continued participation in our events, not scare them away before they ever really got started. For the long-term benefit and success of these events, everyone need to bear this in mind before starting to get too nit-picky.

Iron Dog

Seconded, again!

Wait . . . wasn't that what I said, too (in my novella)?

Jimmy Skids

My Feedback: (2)

Teddy Bear,

Just let me know when you're ready and we can knock one out in about an hour.

Skids

spencer321

My Feedback: (5)

Hey guys i wanted to get in on this. I had a great first time racing last weekend and im looking forward to racing in the Presidents cup. id like to thank dave,keith, skids and everyone that helped me out at the race and before it so hope to see ya at the next race and hopefully i will have a backup plane for the next trace.

summin

Sorry I missed all my Sac buds at the first SAM race. Busted ankle is much better and I'll hopefully make the June race with a 4 stroke powered KY Me-109.

I did get to fly my orange DF powered "Tsunami" last Saturday at Morgan Hill and that might be it for the year for that plane. Hopefully, there can be some further convergence on rules so we can all enjoy racing with each other at the various club fields.

Mark

Jason V

My Feedback: (25)

Is this scale enough this is 1/7 scale and can break out in gold with a 120 ys

if you want to build a good looking scale plane they can break out with out any problem.