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Vegas Race??? any fast planes coming???

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Vegas Race??? any fast planes coming???

Old 04-17-2010, 10:10 PM
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Barrowed YS
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Default Vegas Race??? any fast planes coming???

Hey everyone. So I got a call today from a buddy suggesting we make a trip to the Vegas race next month @ lake mead. I would love to make a trip up there (come on its Vegas baby) but don't want to drive 6 hrs to race each other. Trying to get a feel for a turn out?fast or not who's all coming? worst case scenario my plane gets stolen out of my car on the way up there and we party in Vegas... still sounds like a good time! I wish everyone tons of luck and hope for a good turn out!
Old 04-17-2010, 10:15 PM
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Default RE: Vegas Race??? any fast planes coming???

O... and when I say fast I mean breakout gold planes
Old 04-18-2010, 02:17 PM
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Default RE: Vegas Race??? any fast planes coming???


ORIGINAL: Barrowed YS

O... and when I say fast I mean breakout gold planes
Hi Friend,

Well, first of all, the idea is to NOT breakout. I will have the [link=http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_9585535/tm.htm]FrankenStang[/link] there. I know Marty will be there with his 1.40 powered Dago Red. I have it on pretty good authority that the Pacini family is considering the trip and the Widmers have already confirmed. So if you are up to it, bring that borrowed YS powered plane and give us all a run for our money.

We are all going to be racing each other by the way.

Blessings, Terry
Old 04-19-2010, 11:09 AM
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Default RE: Vegas Race??? any fast planes coming???

Hey Terry, glad to hear some people are going to be making the trip! My personal opinion on the fastest class (gold) should be the fastest and most well flown plane should win.... If I wanted to bracket race... that's what bronze and silver are for. I understand that most people cant breakout in gold anyways so its not a concern. 2nd place is the 1st loser!   Speedworld race I succeeded to turn a breakout in the 1st heat fallowed by punching the gear through the wing on a hard landing (DANG IT!!!) and finished the day with a borrowed plane that couldn't get dialed in all the way lol or at all. Man there where a ton of crashes huh!?!?!? Oh well, always fun anyways! C ya in Vegas Terry, always a great competitor!
Old 04-19-2010, 09:26 PM
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Default RE: Vegas Race??? any fast planes coming???

Borrowed,
Yes there will be fast planes there. In talking to Richard Verano, sounds like he is trying to make the Vegas race. I have heard of some Northern Cali racers making the trip. The amount of planes seen at Speedworld was incredible, and will be hard to match, but if any race on the schedule can compete with that one, it will be the Vegas race. Funny your name is Borrowed YS, cause at this Vegas Race I am suppose to be borrowing a YS powered rocket with a full race wing. That is if my friend gets it done. If not I will be trying the Dago YS140 version Terry talked about (If it makes it thru this week end in Victorville).

I race here locally in So Utah and Nevada with the group that is putting this race together (SUPRA), and I can tell you it will be a well run race and a great venue.

I would suspect there will be at least 10 Gold planes all breakout planes. I have talked to Tony and he has said a couple times now, he is going to try and make it to this race.

Old 04-20-2010, 10:26 AM
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Default RE: Vegas Race??? any fast planes coming???

Hey Guys,

I am still planning on possibly attending the Vegas Race so if the promoters or anyone can give exact details as to location , hotel info and race info, that would be awesome. I am just waiting for work to allow me the time off.

Thanks Kev
Old 04-20-2010, 10:36 AM
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Default RE: Vegas Race??? any fast planes coming???

Hey Kevin,

I am working on a flyer that I will have out as soon as my wife shows me the intricacies of photoshop. I will post the information in another thread here on RCU in the next hour or so. I hope you can make it, it is shaping up to be a good event.

Bert.
Old 04-20-2010, 11:50 AM
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Default RE: Vegas Race??? any fast planes coming???

Hi Barrowed,

I understand what you mean about the fastest wins. Unfortunately, there was a fatality a few years ago at Speed world and it got the AMA's attention. They had to redesign the course and a breakout time was imposed to try and keep the speeds down. I suppose they could have designed the wing area chart in such a way that the speeds we enjoy today would not have been possible. I'm afraid we are stuck with the breakout time as the way to control the top speed. We worked hard this year to come up with new rules that did away with the old out of date wing area chart to make more planes and engines available to the masses. This will work fine as long as folks stay within the other rules which include the breakout in Gold. If you broke out, you know it takes a pretty good run with a very fast plane. I thought the racing was very exciting and I'm not convinced that we need a Color Tile plane lapping the field in order to enjoy the racing. Everyone won't agree with me, but I just want to race, and I'd hate to think we could lose what we have, just to satisfy a few who don't enjoy the rules as they are set forth.

They way I see it, if your plane breaks out, prop in back a little and fly your butt off. If there is no limit to the speed of the planes, before long, only a select few will be able to compete. Then watch what happens to the Gold class. We have a hard enough time filling it as it is.

Hope to see you in Vegas. It's going to be a blast. It will probably break the record for the most female spectators. I think everyone's wife want to go to this one. Can't figure out why.
Old 04-21-2010, 12:08 PM
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Default RE: Vegas Race??? any fast planes coming???



Excellent about the sac racers making there way down! only been able to make my way up there one time (I heard great stories) shout prob 10yrs ago. matter of fact I'm racing the plane that I brought to sac in Vegas.They havesome very fast planes and should be some good competition. Its funny how after the sac race isover our planes some how are no longer legal to bring back (guess they don't like getting beat). Didn't like the cubs... didn't like the T-34's.... LOL O well good times!

What a unfortunate tragic event when the man was killed by the plane hitting him in the back of the head inside the cage out at speed world a while back, think it was around 95 I was just getting into the racing. The fact is if a plane hits you in the head bronze or gold speed its not going to be pretty.... I don't think with a break out it is any safer now then before, do you? I see plenty of out of control bronze planes that have a betterchance of doing damage then a well flown gold break out color tile type plane( got to say that cuz that's what I'm racing). I agree with the wing chart... toslow them downmake them have a larger wing simple and affective. With the new wing chart 400in under 18lbs...? sounds to me like will have even faster planes!?!?!? No way to please everyone tho... shoot if it was up to me I would make it a true war bird race(like the OLD swra)... none of these pink, purple, and blue sport planes that the kit builder calls strega's thatdon't even resemble a mustang. I remember when people took pride in what they showed up with. The Lubbock boys always had new scratch built stuff that looked just like what the real one did.(there pond racer was awesome) or Joe that shows up with bone stock built TF Jug that was not only gorgeous but would turn low 30's all day long with the small YS in it. Now I don't think all the planes that show up need to have all the gear doors, panel lines, rivets, ect. Im just saying it would be nice for a Full scale pilot spectator to show up and say... Ya thatsa mustang! Plus those strega's are slow as a turtle!

Old 04-21-2010, 01:08 PM
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Default RE: Vegas Race??? any fast planes coming???

The problem is, the wing area chart we had, didn't stop folks from flying too fast. Joe's Color Tile was a prime example. Same as with the cubs and T34s. Only self restraint can do that. I can see that we are not going to agree on this so we will have to agree to disagree. All I am interested in is keeping the warbird racing going. If the AMA says limit the speed, there is only one way to really do that and that is to put a limit on it. The breakout times do that. If you fly more than 5 seconds under 1:30, you will get a DNF and no time will be posted. I don't know any other way to stop folks from breaking the rules. If that stops some folks from coming to the race, then they really don't care about our needs anyway. If you go to any pylon race, there are rules set up to create parity and safety. If you don't follow the rules, you either can't fly or you get DQ'd. Rules are there for the benefit of all.

I'm sure the old SWRA events were really cool. I would love to see some of those planes. Let's face it, if you tried to do that today, there would be very few entries. Folks just don't build anymore. There are a lot of trade offs. I'm more for including than excluding. If your plane is a stand off scale of a military plane or unlimited racer, come race with us. Obey the rules and we will all have fun.

Blessings, Terry
Old 04-21-2010, 01:47 PM
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Default RE: Vegas Race??? any fast planes coming???

Well that we will, agree to disagree! I understand you want to keep this going as well as I do. I just think there could be a better way to get a Real race. A race where the fastest plane per rules that is flown the best wins weather they are going 200 or 100. Joe's color pile was one of the largest, fastest annnnnnd most well flown planes out there. I felt more comfortable any day of the week with that plane in the air then like I said some of the bronze planes that are all over the sky.

what does "stand off scale" mean. I'm sure I could build a more scale profile then a lot of the things out there. Not that I ever would just saying. It's tough making everybody happy.

How are they doing the race in Cali with no break out. guessing its not AMA sanctioned
Old 04-21-2010, 01:50 PM
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Default RE: Vegas Race??? any fast planes coming???

Hey Terry,

I have a couple suggestions.

First, you guys don't limit the wing thickness. We use a 12% minimum. Now that you've eliminated wing area it wouldn't help much, but it would help.
Second, any break out should be a zero for the heat and no time recorded. A second offense should be a black flag, meaning park your plane and get a zero for the entire day. A break out 5 seconds under should be an immediate black flag for the rest of the day. You cannot allow guys to come out and show boat. You also don't want to record and post ANY breakout times for the world to see.
Third, you presently have no way to really prevent someone from bringing out a rocket and running 100' or 200' past the pylons. A big discrepancy in speed can be more dangerous than having a group of similarly paced planes. You need to have something like a 10% rule. Meaning if your plane is clearly faster than the breakout time, then you need to be black flagged. There needs to be a safety committee that has the power to say slow down or go home.



Chris
Old 04-21-2010, 02:06 PM
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Default RE: Vegas Race??? any fast planes coming???

Our races are AMA sanctioned. I don't know all the ins and outs, but we have VERY specific rules as far as wing area, wing thickness, and motor type and displacement. The rules keep the speeds down. We do not time our heats, so there isn't any motivation to get a fast time. If you want more details talk to Kevin Norred. He handles AMA for our races.


ORIGINAL: Barrowed YS
How are they doing the race in Cali with no break out. guessing its not AMA sanctioned
Old 04-21-2010, 02:11 PM
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Default RE: Vegas Race??? any fast planes coming???

Very cool! Can't make the race this weekend but would like to catch one in the future. It is in the LA area correct? is there a site I can see the rules? Thx
Old 04-21-2010, 02:52 PM
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Default RE: Vegas Race??? any fast planes coming???


ORIGINAL: still4given

I'm sure the old SWRA events were really cool. I would love to see some of those planes. Let's face it, if you tried to do that today, there would be very few entries. Folks just don't build anymore.

Blessings, Terry

It is sad that not as many still build, but there are still a few of us scratch builders out there! As much as my passion is racing, building is even more so. As much as I want to win, I would rather show up witha plane that is semi-competitive and looks good doing it, than necessarily having the upmost, optimized-for-competition airplane. Of course, the times whenIam successful atmaking both those elements come together, all the better!

Before I was a good enough pilot to race myself, I tooused to love attending or working at the old SWRA events, because the level of workmanship and variety of warbirds used to make me salivate! I miss those days!!! I totally understand that there is a high attrition rate, thus the heavy reliance on ARF models; but, reworking them to stand up to the stresses of Silver and Gold racing (over the long-term) doesn't save that much more time then scratch building. Especially, when the ARF wasn't assembled correctly and there is a fatal defect or weak joint that is hard to spot when it already comes pre-covered. I'd rather invest a little extra time,be confidentthat it was built properly every step of the way, and have something thatisunique(not to mention the extra pride I feel when I actually win or do very well with one of my scratch-builts). And although it ismore work, when you have a design that you love and that works, mass-producing them in assembly line type production of two or three at a time, doesn't takemuch longer. For example, my thread "Warbird Racer Trinity Build" will demonstrate that I can have 3 fuses roughly completed in a week; ANDthat is three COMPETELY DIFFERENT designs, not mass producing only one design, which would be even easier, and therefore evenfaster. The whole point of that thread is to show people who may not have built their own racers a little inspiration to attempt do so; a way to do it that can be faster, give them the knowledge and conidence that they can be successful atbuilding, help better ensure quality control, and give them an even bigger sense of pride when they show up on race day. Does this take that much longer than modifying and reinforcing 3 ARFs?

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_96...tm.htm#9659845

I can honestly say that I have acouple younger friends that are relatively new to the hobby,thatup tonow have been "ARF guys", andare starting to get inspired to build from scratch for the races. I'm doing all I can to encourage and helpthis, andwould like to optimisticallythink that maybe there will be a re-birth of building. At our last SAM race (Big Kahuna), most every competitor in Gold had at least a modified, scratch-builtwing. Two pilots flew with my design for a P-51"speed wing", I think I saw 4 more P-51s that flew with Jason's, my father in-law built Dave Sullivan's P-47 from scratch, Jerry V and Jerry C have designed their own, Tommy Gun couldn't make the rescheduled race day but had one made for his new Fw190 from my friend Steve's design, etc. This is telling me that if you want to be truly competitive at the top levels, you are going to have tohave some building and designing competencies; or, at least know someone else that does!

So . . .get to work, gentlemen! (And try to post what you are doing so I can once again salivate over your designs! I hope that doesn't sound inappropriate in some way.)


After I get a few more warbirds completed to fill my hanger and ensure I have enough to get me through a season here at the SAM races, I hope to join Tommy Gun, Tim (the "Bushman"),and the others from the Sacramento area at some of your RCPro races to check it out. Tommy's told me that he's had a great time with you guys, and I'd like a chance to meet you, too, and put some faces to the call-signs we all go by on these forums.

To everyone attending Vegas, have a great time, I wish you success, and I hope you bring your planes back home!

Ollie
Old 04-21-2010, 03:00 PM
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Default RE: Vegas Race??? any fast planes coming???

BYS

I guess the rules are agreed on by some and not others. Doesnt really matter though cause AMA says this is acceptable, and therefore if I want to race in this series, then I know what I need to and can do.
I race in the USRA where there are No Breakouts, and very fast planes. But even there we have restrictions, all for safety reasons. And we are call, "Unlimited", yet we have limits.

You can go to rcpro website and look under warbird section.
I hope to see you in Vegas with your "Fast" plane. Im bringing mine.
Old 04-21-2010, 03:16 PM
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Default RE: Vegas Race??? any fast planes coming???

Iron Dog,

I ve been watchin your forums... NICE WORK! 
Old 04-21-2010, 03:35 PM
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Default RE: Vegas Race??? any fast planes coming???

We race at Madera and Morgan Hill. That is Central CA and Bay Area respectively.

www.t34racing.org has the rules for warbird.

Here's a direct link:
[link]http://home.comcast.net/~james_gale/2009%20CALIFORNIA%20SPORT%20WARBIRD%20RULES.pdf[/link]

Chris


ORIGINAL: Barrowed YS

Very cool! Can't make the race this weekend but would like to catch one in the future. It is in the LA area correct? is there a site I can see the rules? Thx
Old 04-21-2010, 07:50 PM
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Default RE: Vegas Race??? any fast planes coming???

Hey Chris,
   Sounds like a good time and def more of a "RACE" rather then a bracket set. Let me know when the next race is.... Long drive from phoenix but I'd like to check it out!
Old 04-21-2010, 09:43 PM
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Default RE: Vegas Race??? any fast planes coming???

Madera will be around October/November.
Old 04-21-2010, 10:46 PM
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Default RE: Vegas Race??? any fast planes coming???

Just for clarification, the accident back in the early-mid 90's was not at Speedworld, it was at the Sun Valley Flyers field north of town.

I was at the first several SWRA races out in Mesa, and was often a static judge and starter/assistant starter. I can see the benefits of allowing some of the ARF's to fly these days, but I can't get nearly as excited about them as the more accurate scale airplanes of the old days. Too bad they can't or won't write in a rule requiring a certain outline accuracy percentage like the IMAC events have.

As for the breakouts, I see them in the bronze/silver classes, but gold? I guess the racers are lucky the AMA has their heads in the sand. A breakout does nothing to help keep speeds and safety in check when all you have to do is fly a longer course to keep from breaking out. Maybe they should put up an additional set of pylons farther out and give "cuts" for flying too long?
Old 04-21-2010, 10:50 PM
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Default RE: Vegas Race??? any fast planes coming???


ORIGINAL: ChrisAttebery

Madera will be around October/November.
The Madera race this year was dropped, I am trying to find another venue but so far I am unsuccessful.

James
Old 04-21-2010, 11:27 PM
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Default RE: Vegas Race??? any fast planes coming???

Well that sucks. So we're down to one Warbird race this year. Ouch.

I guess I'll need to get up to Sac to get my fix later this year.
Old 04-22-2010, 12:19 AM
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Default RE: Vegas Race??? any fast planes coming???

You know there will always be folks around who want the rules to favor their particular set of skills. Guys who can afford to buy or build the fastest airframe and engine want no breakout so they can increase their chances of winning. Others who either build beautiful airplanes or can afford to pay someone to do it for them want static judging back. There are arguments to be made for both and those were taken into account when we got together this year to try and come up with some more modern rules to help build the RCPRO circuit. I involved some of the leading pilots from each of the Venues currently running RCPRO Warbird races. We spent over a month pouring over the different aspects of warbird racing and what we thought would help get the most folks interested and involved. We talked about eliminating the breakout in Gold. Here's some of the problems with that. First was waiver we have with the AMA that allows our current field layout and speeds. Another is that with the current breakout time, if a guy wants to move up to gold, he doesn't have to have a plane that will do 1:20 to be competitive. He can compete with a plane that runs in the low 1:30s. If the gold breakout is eliminated, it will just be a matter of time before only an elite few will be able to compete and the Gold class will become extremely small if it exists at all.

The guys in Central CA are trying to make a go of it with their races without breakout times by limiting the planes and engines. I don't know how successful they have been but I would bet that the Unlimited class is the toughest to fill.

At the last RCPRO Warbird race at Speed World, there were 18 Bronze entries, 20 Silver entries and 14 Gold entries. Not too bad for bracket racing. We are going to stick with these rules for while and see how things go. If we see problems we will deal with them as needed. So far, so good.

Guys who's planes are too fast for our Gold class can either fly long, prop down or spectate. We are not going to reward folks who deliberately break the rules. The only reason we post breakout times at all is to help folks fine tune their setups. There is no good reason to fly faster than 1:25 at an RCPRO warbird event.

As Marty stated above, we have a very clear set of rules. Anyone caring to compete should be able to find a way to be competitive at one of our races.

Blessings, Terry
Old 04-22-2010, 12:51 AM
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Default RE: Vegas Race??? any fast planes coming???

agree to disagree I think in most cases you can show up with a consistentsilver plane, race in in gold and take home a trophy...... I've seen tanner (great pilot and very consistent... for a girl lol)turn average times in the high 30's, low 40's take home the gold!

I do agree to build it back into larger events. Either way I always have a great time going to the races and hangin out withall thebuddies.

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