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  1. #51

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    RE: Warbird Race - Morgan Hill, CA - October 2nd

    ORIGINAL: still4given


    ORIGINAL: skymasterone

    ''Now....the 4000 engine rule.

    This was implemented a handful of years ago because AMA SAID SO!!!!.''

    Same for SAM!
    OK, I have looked into this because if it is AMA it affects our races too. I spoke with Mike Brown at length about this and he knows of no AMA requirement for a 4000 RPM idle. So if any of you know who with the AMA made this requirement, please let me know. I have absolutely no problem with an CD making requirements for his particular race. However, if it is an AMA requirement, it affects all of us.

    Please let us know who required this and if it is the AMA rules somewhere, please state where to find it.

    Thanks, Terry
    Ok, let me give some history as I know it....

    The AMA has rules for racing aircraft according to this document http://modelaircraft.org/files/event...s/rcracing.pdf Are they 100% clear for all types of racing? Not exactly. However, I was informed that the two pylon diagram applies to any type of racing, whether 1/2A or larger, based on the engine displacement. Dimensions are then set for the race course. If you want to deviate from the race course, then you contact the AMA for a waiver. Pretty much no club meets the stock dimensions for warbird racing. I'm sure this "idle" rule is specified in each particular club's waiver as the AMA may stipulate some items to keep things in check. The main issue the AMA is concerned with is distance to spectators, personnel, etc from the race course.

    Michael
    Michael Luvara
    RCATS - http://www.rcatsystems.com
    Luvara Air Racing - http://www.LuvaraAirRacing.com

  2. #52
    still4given's Avatar
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    RE: Warbird Race - Morgan Hill, CA - October 2nd

    Hi Michael,

    Mike Brown is the VP for District X. He is also on the safety board for the AMA. He said he will check into it farther, but to his knowledge, The AMA has not placed such a requirement.

    Warbird racing in not a rule book event anyway. It is Class C.

    I didn't mean to hi-jack this thread. My original question had to do with their rules for the race. It kind of took on a life of it's own. I am really looking forward to hearing all about the race and seeing some pics of the event.

    Blessings, Terry
    Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply.
    Speak kindly. Leave the rest to God

  3. #53

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    RE: Warbird Race - Morgan Hill, CA - October 2nd

    I am just passing on to you what I was told when we were required to initially apply for waivers. The AMA said that any form of racing needs to meet certain safety requirements (distances, hard hats,etc) even though it is not a rule book event. Most of this info is drawn from the rule book as a basis. This is why I said it was not totally clear at first glance. Other items like rpm,etc may be written in the specific waiver. When the SCCMAS first applied for its waiver, no RPM minimum was given. I am not involved with the current waivers,etc so I cannot comment there.

    Michael
    Michael Luvara
    RCATS - http://www.rcatsystems.com
    Luvara Air Racing - http://www.LuvaraAirRacing.com

  4. #54
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    RE: Warbird Race - Morgan Hill, CA - October 2nd

    I tried rubbing compound, but the grooves where the element burned into the seats were just too deep. I need to make a lap and use some lapping compound. []

    My son and I went to our first RC Offroad race in Union City. I had some setup issues with my truck but we had a great time. I'm just happy to get him involved in something we can do together.

    Good to hear you guys had fun. I ran into Babe and Rick Maida at the Salinas Airshow yesterday. They told me the turnout was pretty good.


    Chris
    Attebery Performance Engineering
    Retired pylon racer - Losi SCTE - Kyosho SC-R

  5. #55
    still4given's Avatar
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    RE: Warbird Race - Morgan Hill, CA - October 2nd

    Are you guys going to post some pics and results? Would love to see them.

    Blessings, Terry
    Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply.
    Speak kindly. Leave the rest to God

  6. #56

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    RE: Warbird Race - Morgan Hill, CA - October 2nd

    I can take care of the results when I remember where I put them.

    James
    James \"Bulldog\" Gale
    Fly it like you stole it
    www.rcpylonracing.com

  7. #57
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    RE: Warbird Race - Morgan Hill, CA - October 2nd

    OK, I'm not 100% certain on this, but I believe the 4K rule was written in by SAM's and then the waiver approved based upon it. I've been racing since prior to the rule and was witness to more than one wide open two stoke being launched at full song. The planes that I witnessed took off at such a clip that the pilots flew the planes through multiple snaps until said time that the ground induced a snap of it's own on the plane. One of the two snappy craft ended up going over the flight line, over the pits, over the spectators, and then into the parking area, landing.... scratch that, CRASHING feet away from some kids who were playing. The next season there was an idle rule. Some continue to say it's so that we limit the type of motors being used, but I for one believe that had the pilots taken off from an idle and had the ablility to throttle down and keep running that the planes would not be as un-safe as they ended up being.

    So for those that think there is no place for the 4K rule I would say that in my opinion there is a place. The one thing that I have learned is that we are all responsible for safety in racing. For those that want to do things differently please keep in mind that if any group has a safety issue it could drastically effect all forms of racing. As such please carefully think out changes and make decissions based upon that process.

    Now, I've high jacked the Morgan Hill thread enough..... but I will end on one last note..... SAM's Two Minute Tango is Sunday 10/24/2010.... and yes, there is a 4K idle rule in effect for the event.

    Jimmy Skids
    TEAM JR
    Spitfire Brotherhood #99
    Outlaw Racing CD 2001 to present

  8. #58
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    RE: Warbird Race - Morgan Hill, CA - October 2nd

    Thanks Jimmy, That makes a lot more sense. As I stated before, I have absolutely no problem with a CD making any rules he thinks necessary to achieve the type of event he wants. Folks who don't like to rules can choose not to attend. The only thing I had a question with was the 4000 RPM. That is not an idle IMO and I was just curious how they came to that number. None of my planes will land at 4000 rpm, nor will they taxi safely. I can initiate a take off at that rpm however.

    Blessings, Terry
    Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply.
    Speak kindly. Leave the rest to God

  9. #59

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    RE: Warbird Race - Morgan Hill, CA - October 2nd

    ORIGINAL: Jimmy Skids
    I believe the 4K rule was written in by SAM's and then the waiver approved based upon it....

    ...Some continue to say it's so that we limit the type of motors being used, but I for one believe that had the pilots taken off from an idle and had the ablility to throttle down and keep running that the planes would not be as un-safe as they ended up being.

    So for those that think there is no place for the 4K rule I would say that in my opinion there is a place. The one thing that I have learned is that we are all responsible for safety in racing. For those that want to do things differently please keep in mind that if any group has a safety issue it could drastically effect all forms of racing. As such please carefully think out changes and make decissions based upon that process....
    Jimmy Skids
    Amen Skids,

    First off: I would do (almost) anything to help protect your/our Gentlemans and Ladies club from interlopers obsessively trying to fix things that not are not broken; The racing venue that S.A.M. has built up with hard work is that special in my mind/heart/soul/ and professional considered opinion.

    Secondly:All kidding aside, I had long face to face talks with the two previous district 10 V.P.s' to help resolve a similar set of issues brought on by similar obsessive/compulsive individuals way before the current D-10 AVP.

    Thirdly:, Mike Brown DID inherit the office. (To among other things, help enable us to finally rid ourselves of the last sets of disordered individuals permanently.}
    He is my friend, he probably wishes that I would keep my nose out of politics, almost as much as he wishes he kept his nose out of politics.

    Fourthly: Everyone who ever flys fast heavy models close to large numbers of people should feel a strong weight of responsibility.
    The ones who have done it many times safely will all agree that it is neccesary to be able to throttle back in case of flutter, mid-air collision, pilot disorientation, etc., etc.,

    To sum up bluntly, I will not stand by idly and watch a good club have to put out dozens of thousands of dollars in legal fees to get some passive aggresive blowhard (that should have never been let in) out ever again.

    If I am left no choice by the actions of others, I will do what I have done before again, and again; forever.[sm=49_49.gif]

    Best Regards to all, Chuck Roundy


    P.S. Morgan Hill Guys, I can only apologize for hijacking your thread even further! ... I am sincerly sorry. C.R.


    Carbon is groovy man...

  10. #60

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    RE: Warbird Race - Morgan Hill, CA - October 2nd

    Something tells me the point won't be taken, but well said Roundy.
    Todd \"Teddy Bear\" Chandler

    \"When you finally run out of excuses you get a Mustang\"

  11. #61

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    RE: Warbird Race - Morgan Hill, CA - October 2nd


    ORIGINAL: Teddy_Bear

    Something tells me the point won't be taken, but well said Roundy.
    Yeah I know, but the line needs to be drawn, and by all means there needs to be solidarity in the ranks to protect the ranks.
    Carbon is groovy man...

  12. #62
    Iron Dog's Avatar
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    RE: Warbird Race - Morgan Hill, CA - October 2nd


    ORIGINAL: Jimmy Skids

    OK, I'm not 100% certain on this, but I believe the 4K rule was written in by SAM's and then the waiver approved based upon it. I've been racing since prior to the rule and was witness to more than one wide open two stoke being launched at full song. The planes that I witnessed took off at such a clip that the pilots flew the planes through multiple snaps until said time that the ground induced a snap of it's own on the plane. One of the two snappy craft ended up going over the flight line, over the pits, over the spectators, and then into the parking area, landing.... scratch that, CRASHING feet away from some kids who were playing. The next season there was an idle rule. Some continue to say it's so that we limit the type of motors being used, but I for one believe that had the pilots taken off from an idle and had the ablility to throttle down and keep running that the planes would not be as un-safe as they ended up being.

    Jimmy Skids
    Before I began racing, I was regularly involved inthe SAMs WarbirdRacing eventsas aworker, and was working the race that Skids mentions in detail, and remember the incident quite clearly. As the plane took off, it was obviously out of control once it lifted off. It veered sharply to the left in aloop or snap. As it passed over the pilot stations at the end of the runway, immediately, people started yelling "Heads up!!!", because weallthought it was coming down right then at the end of its first snap. Instead, it made it around andcontinued a repeated looping/snapping set of maneuvers gradually going left (East) and even coming back upwind a little each time, too. It madeit pastthe pilot station, the pits, and to my relief, it appeared to make it away from the immediate vicinity of all the pilots and workers and would go down in the parking lot. Things like this happen REALLYFAST! And for all of a half a second we were all breathing a sigh of relief that it was going to clear all of us, and go down in the empty parking lot. As we all began to calculate where it would impact based on its current trajectory, our eyes went to that spot, and to our horror, we suddenly realized that the parking lot wasn't empty after all! There were a few young kids playing ball right where it looked at though its projectedflightpathwould finallyput itdown. As much as we wanted to pull them to safety or take other action, things were happening within mere seconds from initial lift-off to impact; and, we were all too far away to get there in time,and there was safety netting in the way too. All we could do was yell, and hope for the best. Everyone did their best to get the kids' attention, but . . . as kids that age often are . . . they were totally oblivious to what was going on. Until the plane impacted the ground at full bore just feet away from some of them, that is.

    If you had witnessed that event, andwere forcedto watchin utter helplessness as we all did when these events (and some other related events) unfolded, trust me,you wouldn't even question why the safety measuresSAMhas put in place are there!

    Do these measures solve all the problems and eliminate the danger? Of course not. Our hobby is inherently dangerous and participation comes with risk. But, the responsible thing to do is to take steps tominimize the risk as much as isreasonably possible. So, we took those steps:
      [*]We moved the pylons to the South tominimize exposureof the Spectator Area.[*]Weshifted the pilot stations to the North so that engine torque would not mean the pilot at Station 1 wasn't constantly getting "buzzed" (no one wants to worry about getting hit, or crashing your own plane because you had to duck for cover . . . as a pilot, you already have enough on your mind, as it is!). I remember one caller would regularly take a chair to that station if he and his pilot were assigned to fly there, so he could pick it up and use it as a shield or giant fly swatter.[*]We instituted a 4000 rpm max. idle rule.[/list]
      Did we eliminate some types of engines being used? Yes, BUTONLYTHOSE WITHOUT A REGULATED THROTTLE.

      This was not intended to eliminate "certain specific competitors,"as has been claimed by some in the past. If we didn't want competition, we wouldn't advertise the races. Nor would we realign our Wing Area/Engine Chart to better align with the Bay Area series to make it easier formore pilotsto join us.

      Why was it set so high? Not because we thought that4000 RPM would bea realistic idle speed for landing (obviously it is not), butbecause we truly made a conscious effort to NOTeliminate ANY engines that could at least meet the minimum safety requirement of having a regulated throttle control. We couldn't see any excuse for not being able to get your engine to at least 4000. It was the feeling of the CDs that I talked to at the time of the decision, that this rule should ensure that everyone should have at least one engine that would qualify, and keep EVERYONE racing, while ensuring some basic safety provisions, that will hopefully keep serious, preventable accidents from occuring, and keep racing around for the foreseeable future.

      So Terry, it is WAY past my bedtime,so I hope this explanation is this thorough enough and makeslogical sense. I know conspiracy theories are much more interesting, (and some will choose to believe the worst,no matter how logical the reasoning, or how strong the evidence to refute it) but it all boils down to
      . . . simply being responsible. It is as simple as "WEDIDITBECAUSE IT WAS THE 'RIGHT' THING TO DO."

      Can we all move on, now (and return this thread back to the Morgan Hill guys)?
    WARNING: High-nitro fumes cause an unusual form of mental debilitation resulting in excess expenditures on racing airplanes.

  13. #63
    still4given's Avatar
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    RE: Warbird Race - Morgan Hill, CA - October 2nd

    Hey Iron Dog,

    Thanks for the detailed explanation. It is pretty much exactly as I supposed.

    Now where are those pics and results from the race?


    Blessings, Terry
    Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply.
    Speak kindly. Leave the rest to God

  14. #64
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    RE: Warbird Race - Morgan Hill, CA - October 2nd

    Now that we're done with that.
    Here's some images from the event provided by the DaSilva family.


    http://picasaweb.google.com/skyrioca/20101002#
    It\'\'s called \"Warbird Racing\".
    So ask yourself, is that a warbird?

  15. #65
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    RE: Warbird Race - Morgan Hill, CA - October 2nd

    Tanks Tom, Nice pictures. I see Richard Verano was there. How did the new 1.15 run? He had problems at the last race he took it to but it looks like he was able to fly there.

    Thanks, Terry
    Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply.
    Speak kindly. Leave the rest to God

  16. #66
    Tommy_Gun's Avatar
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    RE: Warbird Race - Morgan Hill, CA - October 2nd

    Except for my 190.......

    Richard had the fastest plane there.
    It\'\'s called \"Warbird Racing\".
    So ask yourself, is that a warbird?

  17. #67

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    RE: Warbird Race - Morgan Hill, CA - October 2nd

    James, Steve and all the workers did a great job running a smooth contest.

    Sure James is busy but will get the official results up when he gets a chance.

    Here is my recollection of the day. Sorry if I get anything wrong, especially names.

    Thanks for posting the pictures Tommy.

    Weather was nice. Little overcast in the morning. Little warm around lunch with a nice breeze in the afternoon.

    19 total entries.

    6 in .46 Modified
    3 in Stock .75
    3 in 120
    7 in Unlimited

    Details by class:

    .46 Modified
    2 stregas, 1 Macchi, 3 T-34 with OS's, Rossi's and Tower Hobbies engines. Most/all with Jett or Nelson Muffler
    Bianca went out either in a practice run or in the first heat with a deadstick rough landing in the dirt.
    In the second heat I mid-aired my Strega with Matt Smith's T-34 at plyon 2. Matt thought it was cool, his dad, Steve, was not so happy.
    The Macchi looked to be the fastest but Dan just getting back into racing was still learning the course.
    Steve Smith's Tower Hobbies .46 T-34 was turning the fastest times and was looking to wrap up 1st place in the trophy round when his wing folded at pylon 2.
    Dan took first and Speed Racer took 2nd flying a T-34 to replace the Macchi he lost at SAMs the weekend before to a mid air.

    Good turn out for .46 modified as it continues to grow.

    .75 Stock
    Rick Maida with a WM Dago Red, Mick Crawley with a WM Voodoo and Matt Campi with a ?WM? Zero
    I think every heat was the same with Mick in 1st, Rick second and Matt third.

    Lower turnout than we've seen in the past caused by James Gale damaging landing gear in practice, Kevin Norred out with surgery, myself deciding to focus on .46 modified and no turn out from the Fresno contingent (they were hosting a IMAC contest the same weekend)

    Its a fun class and with series points next season, I expect a rebound.

    After I mid aired my .46, I regretted not flying in Stock .75

    120
    Tommy Gun's 4 stroke Focke Wulf, Babe's 2 cycle Dago Red and Sergio's 2 cycle Spitfire
    Tommy dominated, winning all the heats I believe.
    Babe had a fly away in one of the rounds. Not sure if they ever found it. Apparently there was some serious bogs they waded through trying to find it or get to it.
    Sergio seemed to be fighting engine issues during the day.

    Unlimited
    7 Entries. Two brothers from SAMs area and Richard Verano running what looked like heavily modified WM mustangs Stiletto style (no scoop), ?Dave? with Panama Red, all of these running the fire breathing, high nitro YS four strokes with Richard and one of the other mustangs with the new 1.15. Mark Summich with 90 DF engine in modified Phoenix Strega and two other great guys I need to learn the names of.

    Richard was his usual fast and smooth winning every one of his heats except one where he jumped the start and wasn't able to make up the 1 lap penalty and Dave with Panama Red took it with a big smile.

    Mark was doing a good job showing the .90 two stroke could run with them.

    In the trophy dash, Dave flamed out with a blown fuel tank, Richard took first and Mark and one of the brothers taking 2nd and third (not sure which order, I think Mark was 3rd).

    Wrapped up around 3:30. A great finish to this season and I am looking forward to next season.

    - Joe.
    Joe DeLateur
    Interested in racing in Western US? Go to www.rcpylonracing.com

  18. #68
    still4given's Avatar
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    RE: Warbird Race - Morgan Hill, CA - October 2nd

    Wow, great recap! Feels like I was there. Definitely need to make some of these next year.

    Thanks a ton Joe.

    Blessings, Terry
    Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply.
    Speak kindly. Leave the rest to God

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    RE: Warbird Race - Morgan Hill, CA - October 2nd

    Nice write up Joe, I was upset that my plane failed in the way it did, but it had been failing in many ways and that was the last sign I needed to withdraw it from the race, I already have 1 plane to rebuild I don't need another.

    So I have finally located the results and here they are

    .46 Modified
    1st Dan Petroff
    2nd Shawn Berkheimer
    3rd Steve Smith (DNF)

    .75 Warbird (Stock class)
    1st Mick Crawley
    2nd Rick Maida
    3rd Matt Campi

    120 Warbird
    1st Tom Richardi
    2nd Marcelo DaSilva

    Unlimited
    1st Richard Verano
    2nd Mark Sumich
    3rd Logan Shaw
    4th Allen Annett

    Thanks to all who came and made it a great day, see you all next year when our points series will return, along with some very exciting changes.

    James "Bulldog"
    James \"Bulldog\" Gale
    Fly it like you stole it
    www.rcpylonracing.com

  20. #70
    still4given's Avatar
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    RE: Warbird Race - Morgan Hill, CA - October 2nd

    He he, I guess when you remove the breakout times, Verano can win one.

    Sounds like Tommy's plane is a smoker too.

    I definitely need to make some of these races next year.

    Blessings, Terry
    Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply.
    Speak kindly. Leave the rest to God

  21. #71
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    RE: Warbird Race - Morgan Hill, CA - October 2nd

    Seriously,
    The breakout times do NOT affect the speeds.
    I timed races in the unlimited class and their lap and race times were not any faster than our fast gold racers at SAM's.
    Richard is capable of winning at SAMs too. He just chooses to go as fast as possible to showcase what he can do with a YS engine.

    It\'\'s called \"Warbird Racing\".
    So ask yourself, is that a warbird?

  22. #72
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    RE: Warbird Race - Morgan Hill, CA - October 2nd


    ORIGINAL: Tommy_Gun

    Seriously,
    The breakout times do NOT affect the speeds.
    I timed races in the unlimited class and their lap and race times were not any faster than our fast gold racers at SAM's.
    Richard is capable of winning at SAMs too. He just chooses to go as fast as possible to showcase what he can do with a YS engine.

    Exactly my point. At Morgan Hills, he can go as fast as possible, showcase his engines and still win.

    Breakout times definitely affect course times if you want to win. With no breakout, the fastest guy wins. Not always so when there is a breakout time.

    Anyway, my statement was meant as humorous, not a dig on SAMs.

    Blessings, Terry
    Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply.
    Speak kindly. Leave the rest to God

  23. #73

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    RE: Warbird Race - Morgan Hill, CA - October 2nd

    Shawn B,

    Sent you an email. Give me a call when you get a chance. Need your number.


    KEV
    (408)482-5437


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