Cost to scratch build
08-13-2003, 04:20 PM
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Cost to scratch build
Guys,
I've seen several remarks from the ARF crowd about "I couldn't scratch-build one for that price", or maybe it was "build a kit for that price."
Either way, has anyone ever kept track, item-by-item, of the costs asscoiated with scratch-building?
I'm currently scratch-building a .40 sized sport-pattern plane, but am actually re-building after a crash due to a servo failure. I won't be rebuilding the tail, and I am re-using all hardware (except the servos), but I've been keeping an idea of the cost to this point. Fuselage almost complete/uncovered is about $10 worth of wood, not including, of course, the tail and plywood parts. One sheet of 2'x4' 1/4" ply makes a bunch of firewalls, costs a few $. Same for other plywood in plane.
Anyone else have cost information?
Thanks in advance!
Joe Myers
I've seen several remarks from the ARF crowd about "I couldn't scratch-build one for that price", or maybe it was "build a kit for that price."
Either way, has anyone ever kept track, item-by-item, of the costs asscoiated with scratch-building?
I'm currently scratch-building a .40 sized sport-pattern plane, but am actually re-building after a crash due to a servo failure. I won't be rebuilding the tail, and I am re-using all hardware (except the servos), but I've been keeping an idea of the cost to this point. Fuselage almost complete/uncovered is about $10 worth of wood, not including, of course, the tail and plywood parts. One sheet of 2'x4' 1/4" ply makes a bunch of firewalls, costs a few $. Same for other plywood in plane.
Anyone else have cost information?
Thanks in advance!
Joe Myers
08-13-2003, 04:38 PM
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Cost to scratch build
Sorry, no qualified costs but I'm willing to bet I can build for less than an ARF of equivalent size/type.
It all depends where you buy from. I buy my wood wholesale, it definitely would be ridiculously expensive to buy balsa from the LHS.....
It also depends what you're building. I've built some very inexpensive sport planes from doorskin using pine stringers ripped from a 2X4 with sheeted foam wings. I would estimate the total cost to frame up a 60 size sport/pattern plane would be about $50 Canadian. Shop frugally and you can probably get materials for less.
It all depends where you buy from. I buy my wood wholesale, it definitely would be ridiculously expensive to buy balsa from the LHS.....
It also depends what you're building. I've built some very inexpensive sport planes from doorskin using pine stringers ripped from a 2X4 with sheeted foam wings. I would estimate the total cost to frame up a 60 size sport/pattern plane would be about $50 Canadian. Shop frugally and you can probably get materials for less.
08-13-2003, 05:06 PM
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Scratch building can be cheaper.
I scratch build everything. 3 reasons for this, COST is the biggest reason, followed by superior parts, and I like it would be the 3rd. reason.
But scratch building can be much more expensive than a kit. A quick tab woud look like this:
Plans $50
Cowl $50
landing gear $40
Wood $40
Glue $20
Covering $60
hardware $40
Wing tube $30
And if you go with pre cut parts you can add about $200 + or - to this #.
For me it's worth it, I change the size or modify something when I build. Most recently I took a Carl Goldberg Ultimate, 54 inch wing and built a 62 inch Ultimate, Plans cost was 0 because I used the smaller plans and scaled up. I now enjoy a 62 inch Ultimate which cost me about $200 total to build. This would compare to the Ohio Ultimate which I think was close to $400 for the kit. I cut my own parts and buy the cowl and landing gear.
Once you scratch build, its hard to go back and build kits.
tonyc
But scratch building can be much more expensive than a kit. A quick tab woud look like this:
Plans $50
Cowl $50
landing gear $40
Wood $40
Glue $20
Covering $60
hardware $40
Wing tube $30
And if you go with pre cut parts you can add about $200 + or - to this #.
For me it's worth it, I change the size or modify something when I build. Most recently I took a Carl Goldberg Ultimate, 54 inch wing and built a 62 inch Ultimate, Plans cost was 0 because I used the smaller plans and scaled up. I now enjoy a 62 inch Ultimate which cost me about $200 total to build. This would compare to the Ohio Ultimate which I think was close to $400 for the kit. I cut my own parts and buy the cowl and landing gear.
Once you scratch build, its hard to go back and build kits.
tonyc
08-13-2003, 05:42 PM
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Cost to scratch build
TonyC:
Knock at least $50 of your numbers for scratch building, as you draw your own plans if you scratch. And there's probably no ready made cowl to fit unless you accomodate it in your design.
On the Super Duellist project, an 86" twin, we had a wood cost, as near as I remember, $150 or $160. The set-up charges for the cutter weren't quite $200, but we were able to spread that over the 50 kits. All up cost, including the wing joiner tube, plans, and shipping, was just a hair under $200 each for 50 kits. When you add the mark up for everybody who would have had a piece of a commercial kit the final price might have been as low as $300, more likely $450 to $500.
If you did all your own cutting you might be able to duplicate the $200 price for one plane.
Substantial savings are there to be had, but you have to work to get them.
Bill.
Knock at least $50 of your numbers for scratch building, as you draw your own plans if you scratch. And there's probably no ready made cowl to fit unless you accomodate it in your design.
On the Super Duellist project, an 86" twin, we had a wood cost, as near as I remember, $150 or $160. The set-up charges for the cutter weren't quite $200, but we were able to spread that over the 50 kits. All up cost, including the wing joiner tube, plans, and shipping, was just a hair under $200 each for 50 kits. When you add the mark up for everybody who would have had a piece of a commercial kit the final price might have been as low as $300, more likely $450 to $500.
If you did all your own cutting you might be able to duplicate the $200 price for one plane.
Substantial savings are there to be had, but you have to work to get them.
Bill.
08-13-2003, 05:51 PM
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Cost to scratch build
It depeneds on what you're after. Low cost is definitely achievable. Drop the cowl or build it yourself, draw your own plans, bend your own gear and costs drop rapidly.
For example, I recently discovered that expired airbags are easy to come by and make excellent glass for cowls, wheel pants etc.
If you cover with dope and fabric (like I do), it can get expensive but dress makers lining is a good substitute and I've heard of people using urethane as a substitute for dope (which has gotten ridiculously expensive lately).
For example, I recently discovered that expired airbags are easy to come by and make excellent glass for cowls, wheel pants etc.
If you cover with dope and fabric (like I do), it can get expensive but dress makers lining is a good substitute and I've heard of people using urethane as a substitute for dope (which has gotten ridiculously expensive lately).
08-13-2003, 06:13 PM
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Cost to scratch build
tonyc,
I don't mean to pick you apart, after all we're on the same side. Some of your numbers did see, worth reviewing, though.
Plans $50- Got 'em, have drawn 'em, don't think I'd pay that much for a set.
Cowl $50- I pull or lay-up my own
landing gear $40- Big 'uns for $40...
Wood $40 Okay, but could be low for a big plane
Glue $20 That's a lot, unless you are glueing with activated rescorcinol.
Covering $60 4 rolls? Must be a big plane, 2 rolls will do most .45 sized planes, and if I buy 4 for color, I don't count, just sf used.
hardware $40 Okay, depending!
Wing tube $30- Not all planes require this, but I've done them LOTS cheaper w/ parts from metal suppliers.
Going with the 'modified' list, here's what might be spent on my .45 sized scratch built plane.
Plans-free with kit, (but they don't make it any more :-(, that's why I'm scratchin' it!)
Cowl-there isn't one
landing gear- 5/32 music wire and tires; el cheapo!
glue -$10
Wood $25 or so?
Covering $25-$30
Hardware-None needed
Wing tube-None required
I'd be happy to say I built it for under $100. Considering the original kit was $90 or so, plus shipping. I don't think you could beat that with any ARF, could you?
Joe Myers
I don't mean to pick you apart, after all we're on the same side. Some of your numbers did see, worth reviewing, though.
Plans $50- Got 'em, have drawn 'em, don't think I'd pay that much for a set.
Cowl $50- I pull or lay-up my own
landing gear $40- Big 'uns for $40...
Wood $40 Okay, but could be low for a big plane
Glue $20 That's a lot, unless you are glueing with activated rescorcinol.
Covering $60 4 rolls? Must be a big plane, 2 rolls will do most .45 sized planes, and if I buy 4 for color, I don't count, just sf used.
hardware $40 Okay, depending!
Wing tube $30- Not all planes require this, but I've done them LOTS cheaper w/ parts from metal suppliers.
Going with the 'modified' list, here's what might be spent on my .45 sized scratch built plane.
Plans-free with kit, (but they don't make it any more :-(, that's why I'm scratchin' it!)
Cowl-there isn't one
landing gear- 5/32 music wire and tires; el cheapo!
glue -$10
Wood $25 or so?
Covering $25-$30
Hardware-None needed
Wing tube-None required
I'd be happy to say I built it for under $100. Considering the original kit was $90 or so, plus shipping. I don't think you could beat that with any ARF, could you?
Joe Myers
08-13-2003, 06:17 PM
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Cost to scratch build
Jim:
Good point on the air bags, but they are aramid generally, I don't think any air bags are glass. Think of the product liability suits that would occur. And aramid's actually a lot stronger than fiberglass of the same thickness.
Everybody has heard of the DuPont copyrighted name "Kevlar."
Kevlar is aramid fiber.
Just be sure to wash the air bags carefully, the propellant charge leaves some nasty chemical residue on the cloth.
Bill.
Good point on the air bags, but they are aramid generally, I don't think any air bags are glass. Think of the product liability suits that would occur. And aramid's actually a lot stronger than fiberglass of the same thickness.
Everybody has heard of the DuPont copyrighted name "Kevlar."
Kevlar is aramid fiber.
Just be sure to wash the air bags carefully, the propellant charge leaves some nasty chemical residue on the cloth.
Bill.
08-13-2003, 07:10 PM
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beardking:
Body shops and junkyards are the best sources of used airbags, in fact the only sources I know.
How 'bout it, Jim, any others?
Bill.
Body shops and junkyards are the best sources of used airbags, in fact the only sources I know.
How 'bout it, Jim, any others?
Bill.
08-14-2003, 01:13 AM
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Cost to scratch build
I sort of agree with Joe.
I do not come up with the identical dollar amounts on each item, but the total looks familiar.
One thing seldom counted in is that I often get my materials from swap meets. I may purchase a used landing gear for $1, but it costs me $5 to get there, lunch, and maybe admission. Kind of like the noted $$ amount for glue. The single bottle does not cost that much, but the drive over to obtain it, then the hour long conversation makes it come out to be that expensive. So, it sort of all averages out in the long run, plus I often get the tummy filled on occasion.
Built an R.C. flying A/C from scratch for less than $25 last year. Object here was to see just how cheap it could be to get flying. I received the plans for free, engine was used at $1, radio was missing one servo, so got it for $14, partially used rolls of covering for $2 each, etc., That figure did not include fuel nor batteries, nor postage.
I think Joe has the right idea and the ability to fly the same thing as everyone else does at 1/8th the cost and does not have to take out a loan.
I just can't imagine spending about $160 "just on wood" for a kit. That estimates to about 30-40 sheets of wood per kit. My thought is that some shopping and dealing should have been done first before proceeding. We just finished off a 1/5 scale German Ta-152 earlier in the year, and the wood on a per sheet basis cost us around $2.50 each, or about $68 per kit (that is without mark-up). We are trying to lessen the count of sheets per kit now, and it should drop further. Wood has gone up since then a little, but it didn't double the costs.
I don't buy titanium parts either.
Wm.
I do not come up with the identical dollar amounts on each item, but the total looks familiar.
One thing seldom counted in is that I often get my materials from swap meets. I may purchase a used landing gear for $1, but it costs me $5 to get there, lunch, and maybe admission. Kind of like the noted $$ amount for glue. The single bottle does not cost that much, but the drive over to obtain it, then the hour long conversation makes it come out to be that expensive. So, it sort of all averages out in the long run, plus I often get the tummy filled on occasion.
Built an R.C. flying A/C from scratch for less than $25 last year. Object here was to see just how cheap it could be to get flying. I received the plans for free, engine was used at $1, radio was missing one servo, so got it for $14, partially used rolls of covering for $2 each, etc., That figure did not include fuel nor batteries, nor postage.
I think Joe has the right idea and the ability to fly the same thing as everyone else does at 1/8th the cost and does not have to take out a loan.
I just can't imagine spending about $160 "just on wood" for a kit. That estimates to about 30-40 sheets of wood per kit. My thought is that some shopping and dealing should have been done first before proceeding. We just finished off a 1/5 scale German Ta-152 earlier in the year, and the wood on a per sheet basis cost us around $2.50 each, or about $68 per kit (that is without mark-up). We are trying to lessen the count of sheets per kit now, and it should drop further. Wood has gone up since then a little, but it didn't double the costs.
I don't buy titanium parts either.
Wm.
08-14-2003, 01:30 AM
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Cost to scratch build
Here's a simpler setup I have first hand knowledge of.
My son bought a GP Easy Sport 40 kit. It comes with almost all of the hardware. We had to buy a few items (listed in Tower web site), and 2 rolls of Monokote. Total cost for all of these parts was within $2 of the price of the Easy Sport ARF.
But my son wants to build.
The positives on building it yourself (especially these days of ARF's) are:
My son and I build because we enjoy building. We like flying, and are both quite good at it. We just like to build also.
So, if you want to build, I say go for it. If you're doing it ONLY for cost, forget it. You might spend months doing something you don't like (building).
I just spent over $300 in materials alone for my next project. It will take me 3-4 months to get it in the air.
Oh, and if you do any design work of your own, you will spend WAY more time on the computer designing, than building. I have already invested more time designing, researching, and reading, than I expect to building. I enjoy that, too.
My son bought a GP Easy Sport 40 kit. It comes with almost all of the hardware. We had to buy a few items (listed in Tower web site), and 2 rolls of Monokote. Total cost for all of these parts was within $2 of the price of the Easy Sport ARF.
But my son wants to build.
The positives on building it yourself (especially these days of ARF's) are:
- enjoyment of building
- satisfaction of building it yourself
- pride of accomplishment
- cost (a very minor win in our case)
- admiration of your peers (as most no longer build)
- kits are usually a little higher quality that the same ARF.
- your covering or paint scheme is unique from everyone else's
My son and I build because we enjoy building. We like flying, and are both quite good at it. We just like to build also.
So, if you want to build, I say go for it. If you're doing it ONLY for cost, forget it. You might spend months doing something you don't like (building).
I just spent over $300 in materials alone for my next project. It will take me 3-4 months to get it in the air.
Oh, and if you do any design work of your own, you will spend WAY more time on the computer designing, than building. I have already invested more time designing, researching, and reading, than I expect to building. I enjoy that, too.
08-14-2003, 02:16 AM
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Cost to scratch build
Wm.:
The kit we packaged was an 86" wing span twin. The kit filled a 12"x12"x48" box. Almost four cubic feet of wood, a lot of it in 48" lengths. And we did shop around, our bill for the wood from Bud Nosen, who gave us the best price/quality, was near $5000, and then to the Nosen bill we had to add the cost of the laser cut wood parts, the cutter's bill was a little over $3100.
It's a big airplane, takes a lot of wood, but I'm sure getting a bit here and a bit there better prices might be found. But that would have cost a lot more in time, as you mentioned, and we probably would not yet have shipped the first kit.
When I draw my plans, the few times I bother with plans, it doesn't take much time at all as I have everything figured out in my head before putting pen to paper. Or more correctly, mouse to mouse pad.
And I enjoyed the project, but the current one is being done quietly, with almost no outside influence. Except people sending emails asking if it's ready. And I've had several requests to buy, too.
It is fun, isn't it?
Bill.
The kit we packaged was an 86" wing span twin. The kit filled a 12"x12"x48" box. Almost four cubic feet of wood, a lot of it in 48" lengths. And we did shop around, our bill for the wood from Bud Nosen, who gave us the best price/quality, was near $5000, and then to the Nosen bill we had to add the cost of the laser cut wood parts, the cutter's bill was a little over $3100.
It's a big airplane, takes a lot of wood, but I'm sure getting a bit here and a bit there better prices might be found. But that would have cost a lot more in time, as you mentioned, and we probably would not yet have shipped the first kit.
When I draw my plans, the few times I bother with plans, it doesn't take much time at all as I have everything figured out in my head before putting pen to paper. Or more correctly, mouse to mouse pad.
And I enjoyed the project, but the current one is being done quietly, with almost no outside influence. Except people sending emails asking if it's ready. And I've had several requests to buy, too.
It is fun, isn't it?
Bill.
08-14-2003, 11:41 AM
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Originally posted by William Robison
Body shops and junkyards are the best sources of used airbags, in fact the only sources I know.
How 'bout it, Jim, any others?
Body shops and junkyards are the best sources of used airbags, in fact the only sources I know.
How 'bout it, Jim, any others?
08-14-2003, 12:57 PM
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Cost to scratch build
hi everybody
here`s my two cents
I just purchased 1:3 pitts special plans and getting ready to build it.
I take a look at scratch building from different angle.
I quess lot of people agree that 700 bucks is big money and not all are having that kind of money in their pocket.
My thought was, even if win just a little in costs, it is just like hire-purchase. No need to eat french fries all month because you paid off all you had.
On this pitts project i have calculated that i should win around half of cost or a little less.
Crow
here`s my two cents
I just purchased 1:3 pitts special plans and getting ready to build it.
I take a look at scratch building from different angle.
I quess lot of people agree that 700 bucks is big money and not all are having that kind of money in their pocket.
My thought was, even if win just a little in costs, it is just like hire-purchase. No need to eat french fries all month because you paid off all you had.
On this pitts project i have calculated that i should win around half of cost or a little less.
Crow
08-14-2003, 12:58 PM
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Scratch Building
I'll just throw in my 2 cents worth on my first "scratch" project.
I am build a Beechcraft Staggerwing with a 64 inch wing span. I am not a designer, therefore I had to purchase the plans ($60 - 4 sheets). I also don't have the shop equipment to properly cut out the parts so I had a kit cutter purchase the wood and cut the kit ($180 plus a lot of head aches). This is a rather complicated bird with a lot of parts to be glued (CA $8 per bottle - slow, medium and thin - $24.00). There are quit a few blocks that have to be carved and sanded (sand paper, dremel stuff and blades - $30). I have not priced the covering and paint yet but I'll throw in $50.00 (two rolls and paint). The custom graphics - US Embassy emblum ($20). The retract landing gear will be custom built (servos, struts, etc. - $200). The thing will need a fuel tank and fuel lines ($30). Push rods, hinges, windows, wheels, hardware (screws, clevises, wire, etc.) and incidental stuff (???$$$).
The items listed here will not get this bird into the air (hinges, servos, reciever, engine, etc) but total about $600.00 + the unpriced incidental stuff. This bird will probably total out at over $1,200 in material (don't tell my wife).
I don't know how you guys build your planes but someone has got to put in the labor to put the darn thing together. When build from scratch, there are no instructions and therefore a lot of thought and time is spent during the assembly (as oppose to an ARF). If you value your labor at all, it can add a significant cost to the scratch plane. I like to build but I do value my time so that is a consideration.
I purchased, assembled, and am now flying my Great Planes Lancair that costs $280 (kit with all hardware) and one week of labor (on and off since I am not retired). That's pretty cheap for a great looking and flying airplane.
Having said all that, I will continue on the Staggerwing project but let it be known that scratch building is expensive and time consuming.
Hats off the scratch builders!!!
I am build a Beechcraft Staggerwing with a 64 inch wing span. I am not a designer, therefore I had to purchase the plans ($60 - 4 sheets). I also don't have the shop equipment to properly cut out the parts so I had a kit cutter purchase the wood and cut the kit ($180 plus a lot of head aches). This is a rather complicated bird with a lot of parts to be glued (CA $8 per bottle - slow, medium and thin - $24.00). There are quit a few blocks that have to be carved and sanded (sand paper, dremel stuff and blades - $30). I have not priced the covering and paint yet but I'll throw in $50.00 (two rolls and paint). The custom graphics - US Embassy emblum ($20). The retract landing gear will be custom built (servos, struts, etc. - $200). The thing will need a fuel tank and fuel lines ($30). Push rods, hinges, windows, wheels, hardware (screws, clevises, wire, etc.) and incidental stuff (???$$$).
The items listed here will not get this bird into the air (hinges, servos, reciever, engine, etc) but total about $600.00 + the unpriced incidental stuff. This bird will probably total out at over $1,200 in material (don't tell my wife).
I don't know how you guys build your planes but someone has got to put in the labor to put the darn thing together. When build from scratch, there are no instructions and therefore a lot of thought and time is spent during the assembly (as oppose to an ARF). If you value your labor at all, it can add a significant cost to the scratch plane. I like to build but I do value my time so that is a consideration.
I purchased, assembled, and am now flying my Great Planes Lancair that costs $280 (kit with all hardware) and one week of labor (on and off since I am not retired). That's pretty cheap for a great looking and flying airplane.
Having said all that, I will continue on the Staggerwing project but let it be known that scratch building is expensive and time consuming.
Hats off the scratch builders!!!
08-14-2003, 01:43 PM
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Cost to scratch build
iFLYrc_Vic,
I don't count labor to build planes. It's not fair, it's a crazy idea, and I don't care.
It's not fair: I can build faster than some, slower than others; better than some.
It's a crazy idea: Like Golfer's charging by the hour to walk from Tee to Tee. Can you imagine a golfer saying "Hey, that was a great game, but if I was charging by-the-hour for my time here......"
I don't care: Hey, it's my hobby, I'll spend time at any aspect of it I want to!
Note to all who buy balsa from the LHS: As Jim McIntyre says, buy balsa in bulk!
I don't count labor to build planes. It's not fair, it's a crazy idea, and I don't care.
It's not fair: I can build faster than some, slower than others; better than some.
It's a crazy idea: Like Golfer's charging by the hour to walk from Tee to Tee. Can you imagine a golfer saying "Hey, that was a great game, but if I was charging by-the-hour for my time here......"
I don't care: Hey, it's my hobby, I'll spend time at any aspect of it I want to!
Note to all who buy balsa from the LHS: As Jim McIntyre says, buy balsa in bulk!
08-14-2003, 04:58 PM
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Well, here is just an example of why I consider the costs of my labor.
Suppose you went and bought an ARF. I know you would not but just bear with me here. Let's say you spent 2 days to put it together and get it ready to fly. On the other hand, let's say you built the same plane from scratch (no plans to start from just a visual image of the same airplane). Just for this example, let's say you happened to used the exact same quality and amount of materials to build your scratch plane to be an exact duplicate of the ARF. Needless to say it would take you a lot longer than 2 days to build the scratch built plane. For the sake of argument, let's say it took you 2 weeks (buying the wood, drawing plans, cutting the wood, building, covering, etc.).
Now for the ringer. Someone wants to buy one of these planes from you. Would you sell your scratch built plane and your ARF for the same price?
If your answer is YES, then you do not value your time at all and it would not matter if it took you six months to build the duplicate plane. You truely love to build...
However, if the answer is NO, then you get my point about your labor costs should be a consideration.
Just my views on why I place a value on my time.
Regards,
Vic
Suppose you went and bought an ARF. I know you would not but just bear with me here. Let's say you spent 2 days to put it together and get it ready to fly. On the other hand, let's say you built the same plane from scratch (no plans to start from just a visual image of the same airplane). Just for this example, let's say you happened to used the exact same quality and amount of materials to build your scratch plane to be an exact duplicate of the ARF. Needless to say it would take you a lot longer than 2 days to build the scratch built plane. For the sake of argument, let's say it took you 2 weeks (buying the wood, drawing plans, cutting the wood, building, covering, etc.).
Now for the ringer. Someone wants to buy one of these planes from you. Would you sell your scratch built plane and your ARF for the same price?
If your answer is YES, then you do not value your time at all and it would not matter if it took you six months to build the duplicate plane. You truely love to build...
However, if the answer is NO, then you get my point about your labor costs should be a consideration.
Just my views on why I place a value on my time.
Regards,
Vic
08-14-2003, 06:16 PM
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Cost to scratch build
iFLYrc_Vic,
I understand your points.
Let me add that your time is worth what someone else is willing to pay, not you.
But NO, I would not sell you my plane for the same cost as the ARF. I don't think I'd sell you (or anyone else) the plane, at any reasonable price! I put too much of myself into my planes, and try too hard to make them good. But I myself crash them. I've even jumped up and down on several, when I've had enough frustration. I wouldn't let you do that either, not even for a price!
Note that in the previous posting I didn't say my time was worthless, just that I don't count it. It's a hobby, it's supposed to take up my time. :-) What would I be doing instead? Watching TV? Drinking beer-hey I can do that at the same time
Hanging out with the family? I do that too, plus I've got two miniature builders-in-training Mowing the lawn? Hah!
I do whatever I have time for in the shop. I've built my own pull-pull hardware, I've bought it too. I wouldn't sell either one, I plan on putting them in a plane......
Joe Myers
I understand your points.
Let me add that your time is worth what someone else is willing to pay, not you.
But NO, I would not sell you my plane for the same cost as the ARF. I don't think I'd sell you (or anyone else) the plane, at any reasonable price! I put too much of myself into my planes, and try too hard to make them good. But I myself crash them. I've even jumped up and down on several, when I've had enough frustration. I wouldn't let you do that either, not even for a price!
Note that in the previous posting I didn't say my time was worthless, just that I don't count it. It's a hobby, it's supposed to take up my time. :-) What would I be doing instead? Watching TV? Drinking beer-hey I can do that at the same time
Hanging out with the family? I do that too, plus I've got two miniature builders-in-training Mowing the lawn? Hah!
I do whatever I have time for in the shop. I've built my own pull-pull hardware, I've bought it too. I wouldn't sell either one, I plan on putting them in a plane......
Joe Myers
08-14-2003, 08:05 PM
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Cost to scratch build
Originally posted by Jim_McIntyre
It depeneds on what you're after. Low cost is definitely achievable. Drop the cowl or build it yourself, draw your own plans, bend your own gear and costs drop rapidly.
For example, I recently discovered that expired airbags are easy to come by and make excellent glass for cowls.
It depeneds on what you're after. Low cost is definitely achievable. Drop the cowl or build it yourself, draw your own plans, bend your own gear and costs drop rapidly.
For example, I recently discovered that expired airbags are easy to come by and make excellent glass for cowls.
Airbags at junkyard? Repair shops told me they are recycled here.
I built a LiteStick 60ws, 40fp, my first scratch build, scaled up from plans, out of Douglass Fir and Whitewood (2x4s), control rods and all sanded and varnished. A lot of lightening holes used. It might have been a little heavy but scale appearance in behavior was Great, tires hopping when set down. I use green Sprite bottle for cowl/canope, tall custom seven hole builtup wheels from Masonite, epoxy coated. Silver and yellow on wings looked great with green canopy. The guys loved it as much as I. HomeDepot special.
08-15-2003, 12:08 AM
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gjs,
Sure, that's another great thing about doing it yourself:
You can do it the way you want, build as cheaply as you want. Alternatively, you could build a scale plane that you couldn't afford to pay someone else to build.
I'm truly surprised that there aren't more record-keeper types that have a list of parts/prices for their favorite models.
I'd like to be able to do it the other way 'round. I have a large stock of misc wood, that I've bought over the years, but I've never taken inventory, so I can't tell how much I've removed. In the last 3 years, I've bought $90 in balsa and sheet wood (added to what I already had). Two .45 sized planes, 1 Gentle Lady, 1 Electric glider fuse, 1 .25 sized FF plane have all come out of that stock, and there's a LOT left, enough so that if I ordered again, it'd be just the few sizes I'm low on.
Hey CoosBayLumber,
$2.50 a sheet, is that per-sheet die-cut? I wondered at that several times, trying to figure out how large a sheet of balsa you'd have to buy to spend $2.50. Thought maybe a 4" x 48" x XX" contest grade balsa'd go that high.....
Joe Myers
Sure, that's another great thing about doing it yourself:
You can do it the way you want, build as cheaply as you want. Alternatively, you could build a scale plane that you couldn't afford to pay someone else to build.
I'm truly surprised that there aren't more record-keeper types that have a list of parts/prices for their favorite models.
I'd like to be able to do it the other way 'round. I have a large stock of misc wood, that I've bought over the years, but I've never taken inventory, so I can't tell how much I've removed. In the last 3 years, I've bought $90 in balsa and sheet wood (added to what I already had). Two .45 sized planes, 1 Gentle Lady, 1 Electric glider fuse, 1 .25 sized FF plane have all come out of that stock, and there's a LOT left, enough so that if I ordered again, it'd be just the few sizes I'm low on.
Hey CoosBayLumber,
$2.50 a sheet, is that per-sheet die-cut? I wondered at that several times, trying to figure out how large a sheet of balsa you'd have to buy to spend $2.50. Thought maybe a 4" x 48" x XX" contest grade balsa'd go that high.....
Joe Myers
08-15-2003, 02:55 AM
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Cost to scratch build
Joe Myers
All things considered, that is a pretty representative overall dollar figure for a sheet of laser cut parts. I compared the numbers three years ago, and earlier this year. I was informed a few months ago, by another reader that the figure was ridicously low.
There are a host of things added in here. It costs $10 in gasoline just to drive over to the balsa supply place, add in sales tax, then create the part(s), then the drive over to get them cut costs another $5 too. If you have any 3/8 inch or 1/2 inch wood to be cut, figure on least one sheet going up in flames. The thinner material is easier to cut, but the thick balsa is a bit picky as to power and speed setting due to what the moisture count is, what date it came off the boat and who handled it.
On personal projects, and if the wood is obtained at a good price, I have produced laser cut models at less than $1.00 per sheet, which contain maybe 35 parts. There are just too many variables here beyond materials cost. Going rate for laser cutting from my computer files is about $75 per hour locally down to $35 per hour if I care to drive an hour. You can get an awfull lot of wood cut in one hour too. One place I used to go to could cut fifty sheets in less than an hour. They set up their 6 by 8 table with all the wood I brought, turned it on, walked away, and came back when some buzzer went off. Totally automatic. 'course that was a 1/4 million dollar machine, not a beep-beep one.
I got one customer who wanted parts on 12 inch or 18 inch long sheets for the smaller models, just to save on mailing costs. He did not get an efficient parts arrangement, and the laser costs were higher, and it was a bit of waste of materials on occasion due to parts sizes. BUT, those U.S.P.O. costs were lower. He saved a dollar at the P.O. counter, but it cost $2 more per kit to make the parts. I could produce the wood parts you had mentioned at about 30% of the quoted $$, but then too I would have to ignore many of the above noted costs. You have to consider everything, including computer expenses.
You ever buy a $15 magazine? I went to an auto swap meet looking for certain items. Nothing was found. I went by a place selling old magazines for $1 each and bought one to fill out an interest. It cost to drive there, admission, parking, and a hot dog for lunch.
Wm.
All things considered, that is a pretty representative overall dollar figure for a sheet of laser cut parts. I compared the numbers three years ago, and earlier this year. I was informed a few months ago, by another reader that the figure was ridicously low.
There are a host of things added in here. It costs $10 in gasoline just to drive over to the balsa supply place, add in sales tax, then create the part(s), then the drive over to get them cut costs another $5 too. If you have any 3/8 inch or 1/2 inch wood to be cut, figure on least one sheet going up in flames. The thinner material is easier to cut, but the thick balsa is a bit picky as to power and speed setting due to what the moisture count is, what date it came off the boat and who handled it.
On personal projects, and if the wood is obtained at a good price, I have produced laser cut models at less than $1.00 per sheet, which contain maybe 35 parts. There are just too many variables here beyond materials cost. Going rate for laser cutting from my computer files is about $75 per hour locally down to $35 per hour if I care to drive an hour. You can get an awfull lot of wood cut in one hour too. One place I used to go to could cut fifty sheets in less than an hour. They set up their 6 by 8 table with all the wood I brought, turned it on, walked away, and came back when some buzzer went off. Totally automatic. 'course that was a 1/4 million dollar machine, not a beep-beep one.
I got one customer who wanted parts on 12 inch or 18 inch long sheets for the smaller models, just to save on mailing costs. He did not get an efficient parts arrangement, and the laser costs were higher, and it was a bit of waste of materials on occasion due to parts sizes. BUT, those U.S.P.O. costs were lower. He saved a dollar at the P.O. counter, but it cost $2 more per kit to make the parts. I could produce the wood parts you had mentioned at about 30% of the quoted $$, but then too I would have to ignore many of the above noted costs. You have to consider everything, including computer expenses.
You ever buy a $15 magazine? I went to an auto swap meet looking for certain items. Nothing was found. I went by a place selling old magazines for $1 each and bought one to fill out an interest. It cost to drive there, admission, parking, and a hot dog for lunch.
Wm.
08-15-2003, 06:13 AM
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I do not keep what things cost to build if I did I would not build lol. But here are my thoughts from a strange person lol. I find it easier to build from plans than from a kit since you can modify what you want to at any point of assembly. You can build cheaper maybe but I do not feel that is the main point really. To me it is not having a cookie cutter airplane at the field and I do like to build when I have the time which has been very short as of late. I have also been drawing my own stuff or highly modifying plans to suit my taste. If you like to build and to rethink things then scratch building is for you but if you build as fast as you can so you can fly then maybe scratch building is not for you. Some love to build as much as fly and some just love to build and then there are people that just want to fly and not build each person to his own. I like to tinker and build stuff just to see what I can do or change. The hardest part to me as my friend told me Yes you Jim lol. Not to build a flying tank think light light light. As they say build to fly not to put a two foot hole in the ground that would make a goffer say WOW lol. 
08-15-2003, 01:35 PM
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Recently we removed an interior wall from our church building - it had a thin, wood panelling on it that made me think "hey, that would make a cool airplane!"
I was right! It made a 48" WS GeeBee Z.
I thought it would be economical, since I'd be getting most of the airframe for practically free, and I did, except that the actual airframe, the part of a scratch-built plane that you make, is only a fraction of the total cost of an airplane, and a pretty small fraction at that.
Due to my impulsive choice of materials (hardly any balsa was harmed in the production of this airplane) it came out heavy, and I fly electric, so I wound up paying relatively more for the power-plant to haul this thing around the sky. Plus, you'll pay for batteries, motor (unless you REALLY mean scratch-build!), wheels, receiver and servos no matter how you get the airframe. That's where most of the cost comes in, I think.
Having said all that, would I do it again? Yes! It took nine months to build, and it's heavy, but I love the way it screams around in the air, and I can't keep the grin off my face every time I fly it! It flies great, for a heavy plane.
____________________________
Inside every skinny plane,
there's a fat plane
trying to get out...
I was right! It made a 48" WS GeeBee Z.
I thought it would be economical, since I'd be getting most of the airframe for practically free, and I did, except that the actual airframe, the part of a scratch-built plane that you make, is only a fraction of the total cost of an airplane, and a pretty small fraction at that.
Due to my impulsive choice of materials (hardly any balsa was harmed in the production of this airplane) it came out heavy, and I fly electric, so I wound up paying relatively more for the power-plant to haul this thing around the sky. Plus, you'll pay for batteries, motor (unless you REALLY mean scratch-build!), wheels, receiver and servos no matter how you get the airframe. That's where most of the cost comes in, I think.
Having said all that, would I do it again? Yes! It took nine months to build, and it's heavy, but I love the way it screams around in the air, and I can't keep the grin off my face every time I fly it! It flies great, for a heavy plane.
____________________________
Inside every skinny plane,
there's a fat plane
trying to get out...
08-15-2003, 03:21 PM
#25
Cost to scratch build
As far as plans go I don't buy them. I always design my own. If I did it on my computer it would take quite awhile. That's why I draw them on paper. Much easier and if you want to change something just flip the pencil around! I suggest if you need plans that you imagine the airplane in your head for a few days and then put it down on paper. Only a few hrs of drawing time unless you want a B-25 at 1/4.3466 Scale *L*. (that would be a big airplane)
Scratch building is where it's at. It is where the roots of the hobby started and to really enjoy flying your model you need to scratch build it. Nothing quite like the first take-off of your OWN DESIGN and personalized aircraft!
And screw buying the plans. Make your own and I guarantee it'll be the only one like it in the sky!
Regards,
Bryan
Scratch building is where it's at. It is where the roots of the hobby started and to really enjoy flying your model you need to scratch build it. Nothing quite like the first take-off of your OWN DESIGN and personalized aircraft!
And screw buying the plans. Make your own and I guarantee it'll be the only one like it in the sky!
Regards,
Bryan