t8jones

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Hello everyone, I am a beginner and have a quick question. I have a trainer plane- an alpha trainer- that I have been learning on. When I got it my fuel tank busted and they sent me a new fuel tank along with a new fuselage. I was thinking about making a wing, fin, and stab, and having a whole new plane. (minus the servos etc..) I was going to use it if I crash my other plane but I figure if I crash it I might have to rbuild the wing anyway. What I had in mind was making the wing with no dihedral and just copying the stab and fin from my other plane. If I were to do this where could I get plans for making a wing. Like I said I am new to this so I was just going to play around since I already have the fuselage. Does anyone have any ideas on what I should do with the extra fuselage???

William Robison

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Jones:

Sounds like you already have a good idea of what to do with the second fuselage.

Wing plans? We don' need no steenkin' wing plans!

Four general rules of thumb:

Thicker wing, slower flight.
Thinner wing, faster flight.
Long span and narrow chord, slower roll and a floater.
Short span and wider chord, faster roll and faster descent.

If you use the same span and chord as the original wing you can't make too big a mistake, and this leaves only the airfoil and dihedral as variables. But you might want to knock about four inches span off each side, it'll still have enough area and will roll faster.

Side note - keeping the same wing area, or clipping the wing, just make a duplicate of the original tail for the new plane.

Since the Alpha is a relatively slow flier as it is, you'll probably want to keep the same airfoil thickness, but wanting more aerobatic capability change the airfoil to either semi-symmetric, or if you feel adventurous, fully symmetric. and bringing the dihedral to zero will retain some effective dihedral since it's a high wing.

Recommended: 5" to 8" reduction in span, zero dihedral, semi-symmetric airfoil. Will make a nice second plane with reasonable aerobatic capabilities.

Wing structure is too much to have here, look at other designs published in the mags, plans borrowed from others near you, so forth.

HTH.

Bill.

t8jones

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Thanks for the reply, but since I do not know where to start I do need some kind of plans. I have never done this before but someone told me that you can get wing plans for a trainer plane and modify them. They also told me that this plane would not fly well with no dihedral. So is there any way to get plans for the wing or am I stuck to just trying to figure it out myself? Also do you think that the plane will fly OK without any dihedral? Another reason why I did not want any dihedral was so that I could make one long wing and not have to join two parts together. Any info would be helpful on what to do.

William Robison

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Jones:

The plane will fly with no dihedral. But it will not fly like a trainer.

Now, if you really think you need plans, give me some information.

Measure the distance from the front edge of the wing to the back edge where it fastens to the fuselage, that's the "Root Chord." Also measure the wing span, and how thick the wing is at its thickest point.

Next, is the wing held on with rubber bands, a key in front and screws at the back, or how.

Finally, is the top of the fuselage flat where the wing sits, or is it curved?

So, I need:

Span:
Chord:
Thickness:
Saddle shape:
Mounting method:

And one final thing - do you want to use one or two servos for the ailerons?

Tell me these things, and I'll give you wing plans to suit.

Bill.

t8jones

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Bill, the specs are as follows

Span: 63 inches, but like you said, I can trim that down

Chord: 11.5

Thickness: 2 inches

Saddle shape: The top of the fuse is flat but I can modify that as well to fit a symetrical or semi-symetrical airfoil. Which is what I prefer

Mounting method : Rubber bands, but on this plane I was thinking of mounting them with screws or some other way besides rubber bands. Someone told me I could make or buy a conversion kit

Right now the alpha trainer has one servo for both of the ailerons but I could also use 2 servos (one for each)

Thanks for the info so far.

Maudib

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t8Jones...

If you've never built a plane before, I'd highly advise you to pay a few bucks and get a trainer KIT. Maybe even 20 size kit for $40...

You'll get a good set of plans and a step by step instruction booklet.

There are many things that you need to do to make a wing string enough for flight, and a kit will lead you thru some techniques...

You should have 2 spars over one another in the front of the wing and shear webs between them and the ribs... a smaller wing can be built one piece and therefore stronger, but a 2 peice CAN be built but then a wing joiner and pockets in the wings made to make the strong when you glue them together

There are alot of ways to fo the leading edge too, same with trailing edge & alierons.


To give you an idea... I bought a electric kit called a BLT (Basic Light Trainer) and built it... I then immediately designed my own wing "blowing up" the proportions of the various parts... My very first flights were on my own design scratch built trainer... 63" inch wingspan, 3.5 lb AUW and powered by a .25 LA... It was a perfect trainer and still hange sin my garage today... I called it the GLT (Gliant Light Trainer) I then built an XLT for Xtreme Light Trainer with full symettrical wings...

I learned alot on those little electric plans... My next palne was a Smith MiniPlane from a SIG kit... lots of funa nd learned ALOT more... Then a CG Extra, Morris the knife and up to a 33% Aeroworks Edge 540T... Now I scrtach build from plans and pretty much modify as I see fit...

it's not all that hard to learn, but doing a couple kits will put you on the HIGHWAY to success...


Here's my scratch built trainer next to my partners SuperStar...

Maudib

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Then the Smith Mini...

Maudib

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Here's the Goldberg Extra...

Maudib

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The Edge...

Maudib

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skip

Maudib

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And my latest...


I'm sharing all these to hoepfully motivate you... I've only been building 1 1/2 years... I've also assembled maybe 20 ARFS and built several other kits/scratch designs...


It all started with a little BLT kit from Tower Hobbies... I have learned alot from every kit and project... nd feel pretty confident in my building/designing skills now...

Good luck and let me know how you get along...

Dago Red

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or go all the way and build a plane of things laying around, crashed plane parts, foam, and what else ya got.

t8jones

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WOW!! Those are excellent pics. It is motivating and makes me want to start building today. I just started this hobby recently and there is so much involved. I cant get enough of it. Keep up the good work.

William Robison

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Gyro:

Tell Jones how long that latest pl... uh... thing took you to assemble.

You surely did get it together in a hurry.

Bill.

Dago Red

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the plane im building now has been in construction for about a week or two. most of the parts were built allready, so thats why its been built so fast. I still got to fiber glass the fus, well before that put hte pushrods into it,lol. Its not the best looking plane, but its differ allright!!!!

The plane before this one that I designed, and once again, it had a wing from a differ plane, took like 2 weeks to have ready to fly, but i had to work the bugs out of it. It fly great till a inverted pass on its 4-5 flight got 2 low and the rudder was ripped off. The plane flew back without more damage.

is that what you were asking for Bill?

Jones, Dont rush at all. Allthough the firewall is just epoxyied to the foam on this plane, itll have bulkheads about 4-5 inches behind that inbeaded in the foam with bolts holding the firewall and bulkheads toghether for exta strength as well as fiberglass wraping around the firewall.

I build fast, but people dont see the beefing up I do to my planes. Since my citabrias wing ripped off in flight, i beef every thing up just in case.

William Robison

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Thanks, Aaron, yes, it was what I wanted.

Bill.

William Robison

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Jones:

The first part:

You are going to build a wing of 62 ½” span, plus whatever tips you put on it, and 11 ½” chord, plus the ailerons, so our basic area is 713 square inches.

Materials:

Sticks:
2 pcs 3/8” x 3/8” x 36” length hard balsa, leading edges.
2 pcs ½” x1” x36” medium balsa, trailing edges.
5 pcs Ό” x1/4”x36” spruce, or hard balsa, spars.
4 pcs 3/32” x1/4” x 48” soft balsa, cap strips.
(If 48” is hard to find, get 6 pcs 36” length)

Sheets:
I pc 1/16” x4” x36” medium balsa, sheer webs.
2 pcs 1/8” x4” x48” soft or medium, ribs
(Again, if it’s hard to get 48” length substitute 3 pcs 1/8” x4” x36”)
5 pcs 3/32” x4” x36” medium balsa, wing sheeting.

Start with your five Ό” square spruce sticks, cut two 14” lengths from one, the remainder of this stick is not scrap, we are going to use it to make a tool. Mark the center of your two 14” pieces.
Butt glue two of the remaining 36” lengths to make one piece 72” long, and glue one of the 14” lengths to the side of the 72” pc, with your center mark aligned with the butt joint. Do not use CA here, use white glue. You should now have a 6 foot long stick, with a 14” piece right in the center. Now make one more using the last two 36” lengths and the other 14” piece. These are your upper and lower spars.

Next get the 1/16” x4” x36” sheet, and cutting ACROSS it cut 15 pieces 2’ x4” with the grain running in line with the 2” dimension. Set 14 of them aside, and trim the 15th to 3 ½” width, and mark the center line leaving 1 Ύ” to either side of your center mark. These parts will be the sheer webs, the narrow one will go in the center.

Finally (for this session) get your 1/8” x4” x48” sheets, carefully cut them to 2” x48” size (or 2” x36”). Now cut 16 pieces 2” wide by 10 ½” length. These will be your ribs.

This is enough to get you started, more to come.

Bill.

t8jones

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Bill, this great, it is exactly what I needed to know since I have never done this before. I am going flying tommorrow, and I am going to get the wood this week. How much do think this will cost? I know balsa is fairly cheap. Keep me posted.

William Robison

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Jones:

Glad you are pleased so far, but I can't give you any prices on the wood. You can check your Tower catalogue, or chek a Lone Star Balsa ad. But there's nothing that says your LHS will have the same prices.

Buying from your LHS you might not find any spruce for the spars. As I said you can use balsa instead, be sure to select the five hardest pieces you can find. Using balsa instead of spruce will make the wing a little weaker, but it should still be strong enough.

Have a fine day flying.

Bill.

Gone to a Higher Plane

Mordib...what bipe is that...not the Smith but the last one you posted???

Maudib

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That's the Challenger III... a 69.5" version of Sean Tucker's Oracle Challenger. It is built from plans based on Mile Reed's plans... shoul dend up about 17.5 lbs AUW... I have built 2 and both are already sold...

They will are being covered with the Jim Leroy Bulldog scheme. http://www.bulldogairshows.com


I have a construction site... http://www.renderwurx.com/rc/challenger3

William Robison

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Okay Jones, next session.

Did you get your wood? Then get busy.
------------------------------------------------
Now we have arrived at what is the most difficult part of the build, but it is also what makes the rest so easy.

Taking your 16 2” x10 ½” pieces, line them together and make sure they are all even on one long side. If you cut them carefully, the other three sides should also align nicely. But if they don’t be sure you can align one of the short sides. Now put one SMALL drop of white glue about two inches from one end, one inch up from from the bottom. Put another SMALL drop of white glue about two inches from the other end, but this time only ½” up from the lower edge. Set that one down and pick up the next, placing it on the first. Two more SMALL drops of white glue in the same places, and set the third one on the second. Continue until you have all the rib blanks in a stack, with the bottom long sides aligned, and at least one end aligned. The bottom edge is the long side the second glue drops were nearest. Mark that side, (bottom) and indicate which end had the off center glue drops. (Trailing edge)

If there’s any part of that you don’t understand read through it again. If it’s still unclear tell me. You need it done just that way.

You have tacked all the rib blanks together, you will notch and shape them all together – That way you are assured of their all matching. And you used the smallest drops of glue because you are going to have to split them apart again for use.

Since we want a 2” section height on the finished wing, and our rib blanks are 2” wide, we have to be very careful not to narrow them, right? Wrong. We’re going to have 3/32” sheeting top and bottom, 3/16” total thickness, so we want our ribs to finish at 1 11/16” wide.

Start with a full sheet of medium sandpaper on a flat board, and holding your home made 2” x4” x10½” block, sand the BOTTOM edge and make sure it’s flat. Rig a 90 degree block and sand the trailing edge to match all the ribs there. And do the leading edge. Don’t worry about the top, you’re going to do a lot of cutting there.

In all this sanding be careful. To you it’s one block, but the wood doesn’t agree. If you get too rambunctious you can split one of the pieces on either end. They’re just tacked, remember?

When you think you have both ends true, check for square in both vertical and horizontal directions, on both the leading and trailing edges. Horizontal is to be sure the ribs on each end are the same length.

Now that the front and back, along with the bottom are true we’ll start on the top.

Measure 2 7/8” back from the front edge, make a vertical mark on each side, and connect them on the top and bottom. Draw another line parallel to the first. Ό” closer to the front end both on the top and bottom. These two lines show where the upper and lower spars will go.

Remember the short length of Ό” square I said would make a tool? Glue some medium to coarse sand paper to one long face. Now use it like a saw and cut the spar slots into the top and bottom of the ribs. On the bottom make it fit the Ό” spar exactly, and remember the sandpaper on your tool, use one of the real spars to check the depth.

Cutting the top notch, you will cut it until the bottom of the slot is 1 7/16” up from the bottom of the rib. With the spar in the slot, the top of the spar will then be 1 11/16” up from the bottom. That distance of 1 11/16” sound familiar?

In cutting the top and bottom notches be careful to have the bottom of the notch flat, it’s easy to have the notch deeper at the ends, and shallow in the middle. If you end up with the notch a little deeper than you want it wont hurt, but try to get them perfect.

Again, this is enough for another session.

Bill.