aeroanalysis

I have a sweet design that I want to market. How do I do this? I can build a prototype, but I want to get in contact with a manufacturer to make sure it's even worth while. I know everyone is going to want to see the design, and I may show it, but for now I am going to keep it under wraps.

Thanks,

Daniel

t8jones

My Feedback: (1)

Daniel, I know absolutely nothing about how you would do this but if I were you and had an idea , or design, that you really believed could be marketed, I would contact the highest ranking person you can through whichever manufacture,or all manufactures, and see what you need to do so that they could see it. You never know, there could be some big bucks for you if successful. GOOD LUCK!!

William Robison

My Feedback: (3)

Daniel:

I have been that route, and unless you kit it yourself the best you can expect is enough money for a Big Mac every now and then.

And if you kit it yourself, you'd better have several thousand dollars you can afford to throw away.

Bill.

Mike James

Yep, Bill is right.

If you can't find someone to help you throw money at the project, I think the best way is to build it yourself, and then show it at contests, events, and if possible, in magazine articles, where modelers can get a good look at it.

You then might be able to start a "chain reaction", where a few guys will buy a partial kit, enabling you to throw more money at the production. Then you sell a few more, and hopefully at that point, with some "proof" behind the design, you could interest a manufacturer in the production/distribution part of the process.

Best advice, sincerely, is to hope for the best, but "Keep the day job". Modelers are a fickle bunch.

aeroanalysis

Thanks for all the advice, everyone. To summarize it sounds like I have two options:

1. Find a manufacturer to produce the kit.
2. Kit the airplane myself.

I will write to some manufacturers. Has anyone done this? Who do I talk to? Horizon Hobby? Hobby People? NESP? This is really what I need to know. Does anyone know of an overseas kit manufacturerer? Who can I trust?

Please consider in your responses that this is a completely unique design. When you see it you will say, "Wow, that's the most bad ass airplane I ever saw where do I get one!?" Before you jump on me for that statement, please hold your judgement until you see the design. Again, I really appreciate your advice, I'm way out of my element on this one.

Daniel

t8jones

My Feedback: (1)

Daniel, You have really psyced me up to see this. When do you decide on showing anyone? And will you please let me know when you do.

aeroanalysis

I really really want to show you folks my design - but right now I think that a kit manufacturer might like an exclusive deal, and have a surprise launch of the airplane. If nothing happens in the next few weeks I'll post it. Meanwhile, you guys have to help me get my plane kitted, k?

whatiwork4

My Feedback: (51)

has this design been flight tested?what are the flight charachteristics?these are some questions you will have to answer.

aeroanalysis

That's a fair question. It hasn't been flight tested yet. The configuration is unique, but not so unconventional that I expect any issues. So I'm confidant that it will fly great! Heh heh!

I am starting to seriously consider kitting the airplane myself. What would be people's preferred size? It's a twin, and right now I am thinking of setting it up for two Hacker B50's, with retracts, all molded. It will take me the better part of a year to get the proof of concept built.

I know that even the most succesful kit makers out there are just eeking out a living, so I have to give this some serious thought.

Anyway, what size? (It's a sport/race type, must have retracts)

Grumpy Monkey

My Feedback: (7)

aero,
Without proven flight testing and success, I doubt many people would be interested. I would build a prototype, fly it, work out the bugs, check it over for structural stability, revamp any areas that might need it, build a revamped prototype, complete this cycle until a solid aircraft design is developed, then go into production. If you sell an aircraft that is not proven or flies like crap or has defects or structural questionability, word of mouth(or internet) will kill you and your rep will be tarnished.
This is just my opinion, and I know that all the above mentioned takes time, but in the long run, the efforts will be worth it.

Warren

KJohn

There are certain individuals in EACH club that act as 'acid tests', meaning if they make the statement 'it is good' then 'it REALLY IS good!'. If you can satisfy those types of individuals the design would probably be an easy sell to members of their clubs. Word of mouth has strong influence.

William Robison

My Feedback: (3)

aeroanalysis:

Or should I call you "Gas Bag?"

When this thread started I thought you were serious, and gave you serious answers. As did Mike James. I have started thinking otherwise.

If you have followed the "Fusco Fiasco" and Mike James' involvement in that you know he is speaking from experience, whether you credit my statements or not.

My thought now is that you are either "Blowing Wind," you are totally ignorant of copyright regulations and restrictions, or you are incredibly naive.

The mere publication of your design gives you copyright protection. If your design does indeed exist.

But no matter how radical you may think it is, the probability is 99999 out of 100000 it has been done before in a similar manner.

No matter how new and radical it may or may not be, no matter how much legal patent or copyright protection you may or may not have, there is nothing to stop anyone making relatiely minor changes and claiming the revision as his own design.

I have seen speculations and claims of this same type many times in the past, they have all been a rehash of an existing design, and often totally impractical.

So, sir, I give you options.

Publish a drawing or photograph here, or PM/email the photo/drawing to me (I'll guarantee onfidentiality) and convince me you have something new.

Otherwise I'll close this thread, it is now contributing nothing to the hobby/pastime of radio control.

Bill.

aeroanalysis

I posted this topic to get feedback. I have got a little bit more information than I had before, but not much. Why the name calling? And by a moderator? Sheesh.

When I say it will fly with no problem, I know what I am talking about. Im a professional airplane designer with a LOT of airplanes under my belt. Here's some recent ones:

Space Ship One and White Knight (aerodynamics, CFD and configuration support)
Adam Aircraft M309 proof of concept and prototype
Proteus

Look in my gallery to see the last model airplane I designed.

Meanwhile, if some folks could give me some feedback on what size model they would prefer, that would be helpful.

William Robison

My Feedback: (3)

aeroanalysis:

Name calling? No. It was more asking if I should be calling names, asking if you were qualified to make such claims, and asking you to back them up.

Looking at your gallery you seem to be involved in at least one unusual model, but there still was no new design apparent. A different combination, perhaps, but nothing new.

Regarding your size "Survey," it is not needed. The largest market is 40-46 engine size.

And a part of a moderator's job is to keep discussions on track, and close threads that accomplish nothing.

Now, are we going to accomplish something here?

The offer of email/PM is still open.

Bill.

Cactus.

My Feedback: (1)

is it a pond racer or sommit?
if you even touched the Proteus design i'd expect sommit damn weird
ah shucks, i'm just posting so i can see what happens next

Highflight

My Feedback: (4)

C'mon Bill, if you start closing threads that accomplish nothing, we'd all be wondering where all the threads went

Highflight

William Robison

My Feedback: (3)

Highflight:

I think the majority of our threads are either informative, amusing, or useful otherwise.

Generally, the only threads that get closed are the ones that turn into a flamefest.

But checking a thread with a new post and finding nothing but more of the same old thing can get tiresome.

So how about it, Aero? I'll admit I am also intrigued by your apparent connection with Burt Rutan.

Bill.

aeroanalysis

40-46 size? Okay, that's excellent info. What about twins? Same deal?

Just to get some myths out of the way, Burt Rutan is a well known figure in aerospace. But what is less well publicized is that he has a team of as many as 35 engineers at Scaled Composites working on "his" designs. These engineers are the best of the best. The cream of the crop. We put airplanes onto the flight line so fast it would make your average Boeing/Lockheed engineer's head spin. It was a fantastic place to work. I left because I just couldn't stand the desert any more.

The design that you see in my gallery is a purpose built design for the SAE Aerodesign open class. It's conventional because that's the best configuration for that specific mission.

I'm in touch with some of the manufacturers now. If I get a contract with them, and it's okay to publish my design here you better believe I will. If I decide to kit the design myself, then I would really love to get some help from you guys. What you like in terms of hardware, how complete the kit should be, etc. Thanks a bunch and hang loose for a bit.

William Robison

My Feedback: (3)

aeroanalysis:

If you sell or license the design, the kit maker will decide on the hardware.

Twins are a different world.

There is no volume market for them.

My last was for twin 60 engines, we sold the entire run of 50, and had more inquiries. When I made an offer of an additional ten I only had two more orders. I didn't fill them, so the first 50 are all that were made.

I'm working on one now for twin 15 engines, in this case the design is pre-sold. Having a successful kit already done is what made the pre-sale possible.

If you are selling a "General Run-of-the-Mill" kit, a trainer or ordinary sport plane, include hardware that will work, including gear wires, so forth. No great expensive stuff, just adequate.

If your kit is a "Specialty" item, true scale, a racer, that sort of kit, most builders will toss anything that comes with it, so include gear legs at most, and sell the kit for that much less.

With the big twin I included no hardware at all, not even landing gear wire, except the wing joiner tube and its phenolic socket. Didn't even include a cockpit canopy, although I gave a source and catalogue number for one that fit.

Some things to ponder.

Bill.

Cactus.

My Feedback: (1)

so it is a pond racer
thumbs up on the ARES btw.. love that design. shame the producers of Iron Eagle 2 where the only people to agree.
i saw a program recently with his boomerang, built just for himself, i can believe how fast they knock things out.

not that i want what your gonna do, but hardware... use only the best

Ron S

My Feedback: (2)

Not knowing the configuration of the model doesn't help in determining what the size of the model should be. If it is truly just a sport model, perhaps a 40 or 60 size model is reasonable. If the model is a racer, you might want to check out the rules for pylon-type models, and see if it can fit into an AMA race category, and size it that way. Also, keeping the span above 80" allows the model to be flown in "Big Bird" type events. A very low aspect ratio wing in the design, though, might make this less practical.

So don't expect any good definitive answers on model sizing unless you fess up the config! As in full scale, if you have a purpose for the model, a reasonable "best size" will fall out.

A flying prototype, as mentioned by several others earlier, will go a long way in selling your design.

But good luck with your project. It's always good to see different stuff out there. One can only build so many Extras, or Cubs, till you fall asleep!

(Head is not spinning yet...)

William Robison

My Feedback: (3)

PB:
I agree. But "Best" does not have a definition that all agree on.

Best for a kit selling in the $100-$150 range is one thing, while you could easily spend more than $200 getting the "Best" for your 35% Extra.

And while i could include that $200 worth of AZA brand hardware in the kit I sell for $1500, the buyer could say it was crap, and insist on ZAZ hardware.

No hardware in expensive kits. Leave the price that much lower, and let the buyer pick his own.

A viable alternative wuld be to offer a hardware package as an option for the kit.

One company I've seen, I think it's BTE with one of their deltas, includes the "Adequate" hardware with the kit, and offers an upgrade with better/heavier components.

Just my opiniion, with a little experience to back it up.

Bill.

heli001

My Feedback: (5)

Daniel,

William is exactly right about the hardware, there are so many variations to this subject, it would be impossible to include what would be BEST for anybody. The hardware package as an add on is a great idea, and leaves the option to the customer.

On the other hand, if you DEFINITELY want an education on how NOT to market something, just read the Fusco threads.....!

Everyone at some time thinks they have come up with the greatest design that graced the air, but getting a manufacturer to even consider it is next to impossible. Most large manufacturers stick to designs that will sell, and have been tried and tested for years. To retool for a new design is very expensive, and most are not willing to make that investment unless they can have some type of guarantee of sales to a market. Your best bet is to probably do the prototype yourself, make sure it is the greatest thing in the air, and get modelers to talk about it. If it is a viable product, the manufacturers will come to you...........it is like applying for a patent or trademark, it is a PIA for several years, and once the process is completed, it is pure satisfaction.

Please don't take this as any kind of lecture, just food for thought, as I have "been there and done that", several times.

Good luck in your venture, and please share with us how it is going. Don't be afraid to share a few details, I don't think there is anyone on here that would take your ideas from you. Everyone I know would want you to suceed with YOUR design, and probably want to get on the list for a kit...........(as long as you do not require any money up front)

cncfoam-RCU

where are you at on this plane, I may be able to help

Eric

aeroanalysis

Hey everyone who has been following this post, here's an update. I am currently negotiating with a major kit manufacturer to produce kits. They are very interested in the design and have been very positive. We'll see how that goes. Meanwhile I am also going through the motions of producing the kits myself. This is a big big bite to chew, but I think it's do-able. I am also pursuing a design patent. (anybody know a good, reasonable patent attorney? I can do most of the work, I just need someone to dot my t's and cross my i's, heh heh)

Eric,

Thanks for the offer. I might take you up on it, at least for the proof of concept article.

I'll keep posting progress updates here and hopefully I can post an image here eventually.