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Precise ripping - table or band saw?

Old 12-23-2003, 09:33 AM
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Kregg
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Default Precise ripping - table or band saw?

I have read all of the posts about the benefits of a band saw over a scroll saw. But here is where I'm at. I have a scroll saw, drill press and belt/drum sander. All great tools for the model shop. However, I need to make PRECISE rips on long balsa & spruce. The band saw sounds like the natural choice, but the blade wander is not acceptable. Can this be fixed for accurate rips at our smaller requirements? A small table saw really sounds like the best option. A 10 inch saw with a extra fine blade and crisp fence. You can rip and cut precise bevels. Plus many other everyday usages.

A table saw.... is this thinking right or wrong. Help. My wife has bought me a 10 inch table saw and it is under the tree... but it can be returned.
Old 12-23-2003, 10:07 AM
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Rodney
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Default RE: Precise ripping - table or band saw?

A good table saw will do a much more accurate job than the band saw, especially on ripping. I use a very old 10 inch table saw and can rip pine so thin you can almost see through it. You do need a very good hollow ground thin blade for that and you need to make a insert (the plate the saw blade extends up through) so there is no gap at the edges of the blade. I usually make it out of wood and then just raise the blade up through it cutting its own clearance hole in the insert. A saw that does not have the blade connected directly to the motor (belt driven) will also be more accurate. Yes, bigger is better in this case and more accurate. Ripping balsa is even easier than pine.
Old 12-23-2003, 10:11 AM
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Default RE: Precise ripping - table or band saw?

Everything Rodney said.
Old 12-23-2003, 10:13 AM
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Default RE: Precise ripping - table or band saw?

Rodney,
Thanks for your quick post. That is what I was wanting to hear. Could you give me some additional advise on the 10 inch blade selection (type, # of teeth, brand?). You indicated a good hollow ground thin blade. Can this type of blade be purchase at a home store or Sears or will I need to go to a specialty wood working shop? Thx.
Old 12-23-2003, 01:34 PM
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Default RE: Precise ripping - table or band saw?

I'd like to have some info on this topic please, as this is about the only other tool that I need to complete my shop, its use is mainly going to be to cut spruce and balsa blocks and/or thick sheets, is anyone using the 10 inch table saw that is offered through Lowe's, at $ 89 for a 10" table saw with stand is a good price, if some quality is present, what is the part number for the best blades to be used to rip balsa and spruce with?, here's the link to Lowe's site: http://www.lowes.com/lkn?action=prod...-32764-TS200LS
Old 12-23-2003, 01:42 PM
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Default RE: Precise ripping - table or band saw?

I would also like to know the answers to Walter's questions. I also want to know how one goes about adding a real table to a saw this size? It's not big enough to lay a full size sheet of plywood on and push it through the blade accurately because most of the work you're doing will be supporting the sheet - not feeding it.

Is there a relatively simple way to extend the table? Is it as simple as cutting a square hole from a sheet of ply and mounting it flush with the table? Do most table saws have mounts built in that allow you to extend the table?

Thanks

- Paul
Old 12-23-2003, 02:20 PM
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phread59
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Default RE: Precise ripping - table or band saw?

I want to add a little info here. My brother and I like occasionally to buld cabinetry. We us a 10" table saw to rip wood and do all kinds of work. I will caution everyone on cheap saws. I will not throw rocks. But cheap saws have cheap fences. You must be very careful on your fence set up with a cheap saw. Measure both ends of the fence in relation to the table before cutting any wood. You may have to fiddle with the fence to get it square.
Now that people are getting mad at me I will say this. If you take your time and check and double check your fence settings. You can do a nice job with a cheap saw.
Getting blades is fairly easy. Try a woodworking shop or places like Grizzly (a verry baad place to go, They opened a showroom store about 40 miles from my house, ooh yea). I believe you can mount an 8' blade on most 10" saws. I believe that a good 8" blade will have a thinner kerf than a 10". You need the thinnest kerf (blade thickness) you can find. Also no less than 40 teeth for a good splinter free smooth cut. Try a thin kerf plywood blade. They are made to cut plywood without splintering. I use one when I need precision edges.
I would also like to add something else. Grizzly has just came out with a new 14" band saw. I saw one at the store recently. It is just the kind of saw us modelers could use. It goes for 375$. It has a decent fence so ripping can be done. And after discussing it with one of the repaimen at the store he assures me that the 1/16 blades they sell will work in it. It would do a great job scrolling. Comes with base. And add a nice 1/2" high tooth blade and you should do a great job ripping balsa. When I get back to work I WILL have one.
I would also like to add 1 more thing. For those of us on a budget (me included). Try this with your scroll saw. Get a good edged piece of wood. You can get a piece fo hardwood project lumber at any of the depots or local lumber yard. Make sure it has a nice straight smooth end on it. You can take 2 "C" clamps and carefully clamp it on the table and make a makeshift fence. Just keep an eye on it when you are using it. I think 2 months ago in RCM&E magazine(Brittish import). They did a better article on how to set up a scroll saw to rip balsa. Check it out.
I appologize for the long ramble but I felt all this info would help a lot of you guys and gals out there.

Mark Shuman
Old 12-23-2003, 02:28 PM
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Default RE: Precise ripping - table or band saw?

Phread - A while ago someone e-mailed me through my website asking me about the Microlux table saw I have. We exchanged several e-mail discussing various things. One thing he said to me with a full-size saw that applies to any table saw is the importance of making sure the fence is absolutely parallel to the blade - the same thing you are saying.

However, he said that he loosens the blade/motor mount inside the saw and aligns the blade to the fence. What do you think of that technique?
Old 12-23-2003, 10:52 PM
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jerry dotson
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Default RE: Precise ripping - table or band saw?

I agree with Phread on cheap table saws. I have one. I also have a good 14" bandsaw and it rips very good. I have a good fence on both saws. Proper band selection and quality is important. Poor welds makes for rough cuts. I use 7 1/4 inch Pirana blades on my 10" table saw as the kerf is narrow and the blade seems more stable. Not trying to muddy the water on the subject,just an opinion. MHOP rather have a good bandsaw than a cheap tablesaw. Can rip a 6X6 with the bandsaw and it don't wander.
Old 12-24-2003, 04:02 AM
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Default RE: Precise ripping - table or band saw?

A tool of any sort is only as good as how it is set up. Look for a book about table saws by Richard J. de Cristoforo. In this book he describes how to set up and test your saw for accuracy and then how to use it and some special tricks like Rodneys zero clearance blade insert.

For small saws and large panels or long lengths of wood it is quite possible to set up special saw horses with their upper caps flush with or just slightly below the table surface to support the panels or long lengths. And for special cases a good straight 6 foot length of lumber makes a fine long fence for these peices by adding extra support.
Old 12-24-2003, 11:24 PM
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Default RE: Precise ripping - table or band saw?

ORIGINAL: Walter D

I'd like to have some info on this topic please, as this is about the only other tool that I need to complete my shop, its use is mainly going to be to cut spruce and balsa blocks and/or thick sheets, is anyone using the 10 inch table saw that is offered through Lowe's, at $ 89 for a 10" table saw with stand is a good price, if some quality is present, what is the part number for the best blades to be used to rip balsa and spruce with?, here's the link to Lowe's site: http://www.lowes.com/lkn?action=prod...-32764-TS200LS
Walter - I looked at that saw up close and personal at Lowes earlier today. Looks like junk to me. I wouldn't even consider purchasing it.
Old 12-25-2003, 09:41 AM
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Default RE: Precise ripping - table or band saw?

As a full time woodworker I'll throw in my $.02 here. A good blade on a cheap saw can work OK for modeling purposes. Stay with a small diameter and thin kerf blade. You don't want a lot of blade weight on the lower HP saws. You pretty much get what you pay for in blades but there are some good deals out there. Eventhough a blade is carbide it should still "feel" sharp. I saw some $20 blades in Home Depot the other day. I might have paid $5 for them, but would have had to send them out for sharpening before using them. A lighter weight, sharp, all steel blade might work better on the cheaper saws if only cutting the lighter materials.
Also, rip and crosscut tooth orientation are different but doesn't matter as much on balsa.
With a table saw you can also make a crosscut sled that is very handy.
Sometimes fliping your piece end for end when ripping can be the safest way to go.
Old 12-25-2003, 01:27 PM
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Walter D
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Default RE: Walter - I looked at that saw up close and personal at Lowes earlier today. Looks like junk to m

Marry Christmas guys!
Paul you don't think that little table saw would do any better than a good band saw when cutting up spruce and balsa stringers and small balsa blocks ?

Isn't the Microlux a very small band saw?, what should one look for on one of these units, my only purpose would be to use it for our hobby needs really.
Old 12-25-2003, 06:09 PM
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Default RE: Walter - I looked at that saw up close and personal at Lowes earlier today. Looks like junk to m

The microlux saw is not a band saw. It is a small table saw that utilizes blades that are 3 3/8" in diameter. The price of the saw is a little steep and I was somewhat reluctant to buy it when I did. I am now very glad I did purchase it. It is perfect for the type of cuts we need as modelers and I have far more control over thin stock when I need to rip it. I have made several jigs to get more accurate rips and made a miniature sled to get very precise angles. I have not purchased balsa sticks since I brought this saw into the shop. I can consistently rip 1/8" and 1/16" stock with this saw and can even cut 1/8th inch triangle stock, cleanly and accurately! If you are looking for precise control on balsa cuts with stock 3/4" thick and smaller, look hard at this tool. You wont be disappointed. Best of all, it is only a fraction of the size of a table saw and can be placed in a cabinet or large drawer when not in use.
It can be purchased through Micro-Mark Tools. www.micromark.com
Old 12-26-2003, 01:46 AM
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Default RE: Walter - I looked at that saw up close and personal at Lowes earlier today. Looks like junk to m

ORIGINAL: Walter D

Marry Christmas guys!
Paul you don't think that little table saw would do any better than a good band saw when cutting up spruce and balsa stringers and small balsa blocks ?

Isn't the Microlux a very small band saw?, what should one look for on one of these units, my only purpose would be to use it for our hobby needs really.
Personally, I don't have enough experience with band saws to discuss them intelligently. I have a Microlux Saw that I love, but it has problems making long, straight cuts due to the short fence. Pieces tend to bow coming off the saw. I've started using a long piece of extrusion clamped to the table as a fence and it works a lot better.

It is great for other modeling work. With the carbide blade it goes through 3/4" rock maple and fingers without breaking a sweat. When I bought it I thought it would be able to do about 1/2" balsa and that's about it. I was very happy and surprised to learn that it's a lot more powerful than I expected.

The saw you mentioned in your first post just looks cheap. The cabinet is flimsy and the overall quality looks crappy. It could probably be made to work with a good blade, but I'd rather buy a good saw to begin with. Besides, If I'm buying a larger table saw, then I want to be able to use it for other things as well, such as building workbenches or other shop tasks - maybe even try making some furniture.

I sent the link to a friend of mine who is an excellent woodworker. You should see his work. This was his response after reading this thread:

Paul-

The Freud blades for my table saw cost more than the Lowe's table saw.
NEVER buy a table saw like that, you're right.

They're discussing tuning table saws.

You do this first:
The groove for the sliding miter gauge has to be no more than .003 inches out of parallel with the groove. You can rotate the blade mount to align it.
Next:
Get a good square - they cost about $50. The cheap ones are not square. If you are doing cutoff work make a sled - or spend the money to get a decent miter gauge - use the sqaure to set the miter guage square, or for the sled.

For large stock, most decent cabinet saws, like a Unisaw, have extensions tables. This is what you want to buy or make. Infeed/outfeed rollers are not very efficient, but they will work.

Finally, you need to get at least one good blade. The tooth count tells you whether you have a combination, crosscut or rip blade. For what the folks are describing about making thin stock (luthiers do this all the time with spruce for violins either with a table saw or specially equipped bandsaws) you probably want a so-called glue-line rip blade. The problem with rip blade is that it performs poorly for crosscuts.

Bandsaw tuning is similar, and getting the right blade is also important. At least bandsaw blades cost a lot less.

There actually is a lot more to tuning a saw. Taunton Press has the gold standard series of books for Fine Woodworking (their magazine, also)
www.taunton.com
Old 12-26-2003, 01:57 AM
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Default RE: Walter - I looked at that saw up close and personal at Lowes earlier today. Looks like junk to m

ORIGINAL: CCRC1

The microlux saw is not a band saw. It is a small table saw that utilizes blades that are 3 3/8" in diameter. The price of the saw is a little steep and I was somewhat reluctant to buy it when I did. I am now very glad I did purchase it. It is perfect for the type of cuts we need as modelers and I have far more control over thin stock when I need to rip it. I have made several jigs to get more accurate rips and made a miniature sled to get very precise angles. I have not purchased balsa sticks since I brought this saw into the shop. I can consistently rip 1/8" and 1/16" stock with this saw and can even cut 1/8th inch triangle stock, cleanly and accurately! If you are looking for precise control on balsa cuts with stock 3/4" thick and smaller, look hard at this tool. You wont be disappointed. Best of all, it is only a fraction of the size of a table saw and can be placed in a cabinet or large drawer when not in use.
It can be purchased through Micro-Mark Tools. www.micromark.com
I'd like to see how you set up your saw to make spars and small triangle. I've failed dismally at every attempt to make triangle stock with my Microlux. as the wood departs the blade, it bows back into the blade and ruins the work.

Also, I'd like to see how you made your sled. I know what it is (sort of) but would like more info about them and how to make one that's accurate. Have any pics?

thanks

- Paul
Old 12-26-2003, 10:02 AM
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Walter D
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Default RE: Walter - I looked at that saw up close and personal at Lowes earlier today. Looks like junk to m

Well, well, now we are getting some good information, interesting thread, thanks!
Old 12-26-2003, 10:08 AM
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CafeenMan
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Default RE: Walter - I looked at that saw up close and personal at Lowes earlier today. Looks like junk to m

Oh - since I sawed my fingers off, I have been looking for ways to be safer with my saw. I found a really good website that has all kinds of jigs for safety and accuracy. I'm going to have to add this link to my site as well. I read every article in one sitting last night.

http://www.newwoodworker.com/tipstrksdir.html
Old 12-26-2003, 10:12 AM
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Walter D
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Default RE: Walter - I looked at that saw up close and personal at Lowes earlier today. Looks like junk to m

Don't tell me you're the one that submitted pictures of the cuts on your fingers just a few days ago? How are you doing? and how in the world did it happen?
Old 12-26-2003, 10:25 AM
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Default RE: Walter - I looked at that saw up close and personal at Lowes earlier today. Looks like junk to m

Yep - that was me. If you look toward the tail end of that thread I describe in detail what I did and also posted pics taken two days ago (my g/f in Canada wanted proof that they hadn't become infected or fallen off, so I posted them here too). I don't have the link, but it's in the clubhouse forum I think.

Short answer is fingers are healing quickly and very nicely. Thanks for asking.

- Paul
Old 12-26-2003, 10:41 AM
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Walter D
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Default RE: Walter - I looked at that saw up close and personal at Lowes earlier today. Looks like junk to m

Glad to hear it. These power tools are not to be taken lightly, a couple of months ago during some real estate seminar I was in, this elderly lady who is a wood working hobbyist had missed three days of the event (she always sat by my side) and upon her return her left hand is heavily bandaged and when asking her what had happened, she said that she had lost two of her fingers on a band saw, seems the piece she was working with got caught between the blade and the open area next to it, her fingers somehow got caught with the cover. Makes the hair in the back of my neck stand up! Wishing you a fast recovery and hope that this will never happen to you again!
Old 12-26-2003, 10:45 AM
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Default RE: Walter - I looked at that saw up close and personal at Lowes earlier today. Looks like junk to m

Walter - I'm in Spring Hill. Don't know how far that is from Clearwater, but if you want to stop by and play with the Microlux you're more than welcome. Shoot me a pm or e-mail if you're interested and I'll send you directions.

- Paul
Old 12-26-2003, 11:01 AM
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Default RE: Walter - I looked at that saw up close and personal at Lowes earlier today. Looks like junk to m

Thanks for the offer Paul, will let you know if I come up that way.
Old 12-26-2003, 11:31 AM
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Default RE: Walter - I looked at that saw up close and personal at Lowes earlier today. Looks like junk to m

For large an long peices on my table saw i purchased a couple stands that have the rollers on them. They work real good and it helps to have a helper for these larger jobs. For ripping I usually have problems when feeding through the last couple inches cuz the blade nips off a bit more due to part instability. There are some real good books out there however for making numerous fixtures and such to give amazing results. Most of the bandsaws I've seen have really flimsy blade support/rollers on them until you get into the super high price range.
Old 12-28-2003, 02:45 PM
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Default RE: Precise ripping - table or band saw?

Hey Caffenman:

I don't really like that idea too much. Yes I guess it could be done if all else fails. I find there is enough slop in a cheep fence to just wiggle and lock it square. If the fence cannot be squared then maybe playing with the blade/motor mount may be necessary.

Mark Shuman

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