Go Back  RCU Forums > RC Airplanes > Scratch Building, Aircraft Design, 3D/CAD
Reload this Page >

Are Cleveland Model plans good and worth the money?

Notices
Scratch Building, Aircraft Design, 3D/CAD If you are starting/building a project from scratch or want to discuss design, CAD or even share 3D design images this is the place. Q&A's.

Are Cleveland Model plans good and worth the money?

Old 01-09-2004, 08:02 PM
  #1  
swooper
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
swooper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Victor, ID
Posts: 251
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default Are Cleveland Model plans good and worth the money?

Greetings, I've built and flown a number of biplanes and now want to build a 1929 Travel Air 4000 for .91 4stroke power. The only plans I've found are from Cleveland Model and Supply. The 1/6 scale at 72 in. wingspan sounds OK for this engine, and of course I can use another engine size if needed. The plans are $43 and sound like they're enlarged from smaller scale. I've never seen any of their plans. So I'd appreciate your opinion,
Are the enlarged plans good to work from?
Are the lines real fat and blurry?
Do they show lots of scale detail?
Should I buy a smaller size and get 'em blown up to my preferred size?
Should I CAD draw my own from a scan of their smaller size?
I wasn't planning on paying fifty bucks for plans for this project, which is for sport flying, not Scale competition.
Thanks a lot!
Old 01-09-2004, 08:37 PM
  #2  
CoosBayLumber
Senior Member
My Feedback: (1)
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: San Bernardino Calif
Posts: 3,757
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default RE: Are Cleveland Model plans good and worth the money?

Far as I can remember, most ALL of the Cleveland scale plans are to the same scale. From there, they photographically enlarged the series in varying percentages to become certain scales. Thus if you get one of their 5/8 scale plans, and want their 1 1/2 inch plan, they just enarged it to mee the ratio. Thus lines and everything are fatter.

The whole group was done in the days of rubber power. Don't matter what persons indicate, there were zero R/C airplane plans out during the era these were all drawn. What has been referred to as R/C in a few places are older free flight designs that have been adapted by S.A.M. members to meet their rule structure.

As for details, they are very modest. Most of the details are in exterior markings for certain special A/C, and not for variations of construction. I don't have any of their Jet era plans, but would assume them to be about the same.

Overall, they are good for rubber power projects basically. Cleveland is about the only source for certain late 1920's or mid 1930's A/C plans. If you cannot find later era scale drawings, then obtain the standard sized drawings, and computer enlarge to meet your needs. You then will need to re-draw the whole thing to meet modern day equipment. This includes designing up your own airfoils for the wing. Don't expect a lot, and you will be rewarded.



Wm.
Old 01-09-2004, 10:47 PM
  #3  
BMatthews
 
BMatthews's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Chilliwack, BC, CANADA
Posts: 12,425
Likes: 0
Received 22 Likes on 19 Posts
Default RE: Are Cleveland Model plans good and worth the money?

While I agree with Coos for the most part not all of them are enlarged from the smaller series. They did have some larger ones that were designed to be that size. I have a set of the plans for the big Stinson SR7 or 9. It's an 84 inch span and shows a 1:1 spark .19 for power. It was meant to fly as a free flight scale model. If your Travel Air is from the same series it just may be the proper design for that size with appropriate rib spacing and such. Perhaps you could contact the fellow that runs the place and ask.

PS: for the most part their plans are works of art that you will regret putting a pin through other than to hang it on a wall. The detail level is good for making a model but they have only the cursory details required for a scale model. Engine cowls have exhaust ports but often no panel lines and the plans show only model structure and nothing of the full sized structure unless that particular one happens to mimic the full sized version.

I can think of much worse things than to have a couple of the smaller ones framed and hang 'em on the walls of my den when I get one some day.
Old 01-10-2004, 12:51 AM
  #4  
bsherrill
Junior Member
 
bsherrill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Denver, NC
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Are Cleveland Model plans good and worth the money?

I just bought a 1/4 scale set of plans for the Beech Staggerwing from Cleveland. These plans were just scaled up from a previous dimension, probably 1/32nd. So yes, the lines are very large, and it will take a lot of engineering and creative thinking to make this baby into a presentable 1/4 scale RC flying machine with staggered 8' wings! The plans are very much to scale in appearance, so it'll be interesting if I can build a solid, STRAIGHT aircraft from them. Even then, there will always be doubt in the back of my mind, even though I think it's doable. He states that most all of these plans are for rubber powered flight, and my plans even show the building for doing that, but I think I will need slightly more power

This was my only option if I wanted to build a Staggerwing. I contacted Nick Ziroli about his plans, but they are not finished and he said that they probably wouldn't be finished until much later this year, minimum. I'm sure I will run into tons of problems building, hopefully none will threaten the project, but you never know. I'm looking to go as close to the real thing as possible on this one, so I have plenty of resources for the scale part of it, I just needed 1/4 scale plans to build the plane. I'll even make a trip this spring to the Staggerwing Museum in Tenn. for more details. I don't think I could have picked a more difficult subject to model if I tried, but I have a love affair with this aircraft, so whatever it takes
Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version

Name:	Qo39023.jpg
Views:	201
Size:	39.3 KB
ID:	89181  
Old 01-10-2004, 09:18 AM
  #5  
Flypaper 2
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Kingston, ON, CANADA
Posts: 4,925
Likes: 0
Received 3 Likes on 3 Posts
Default RE: Are Cleveland Model plans good and worth the money?

I have the drawing for the Grumman Gulfhawk. even shows how to make the scale retracts that fold into the sides of the fuse. Little details like filling in the empty spaces by an add for what used planes sold for in 1937. I have it partially built. As B Mathews says, worthy of hanging on the wall.
Old 01-10-2004, 05:58 PM
  #6  
Strat2003
My Feedback: (1)
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Mt. Pleasant, OH
Posts: 1,249
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Are Cleveland Model plans good and worth the money?

I agree with Coos Bay. I've seen several of the plans and all have been direct enlargements of the rubber designs. They're neat to look at, but a lot of work has to be done to make the structure suitable for their size. They're more of a guideline for outline, wing sections, and former shapes.
Old 01-10-2004, 07:06 PM
  #7  
BMatthews
 
BMatthews's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Chilliwack, BC, CANADA
Posts: 12,425
Likes: 0
Received 22 Likes on 19 Posts
Default RE: Are Cleveland Model plans good and worth the money?

It sounds more and more like the Stinson plan I have is the exception rather than the rule. In that case I would look for another plan or find the scale views and do your own.
Old 01-12-2004, 12:44 AM
  #8  
swooper
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
swooper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Victor, ID
Posts: 251
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Are Cleveland Model plans good and worth the money?

Thanks everyone for responding! Sounds like ordering a small size copy from Cleveland is the way to go. It will provide scale outline, and cross sections, rib locations etc., and I can add r/c equipment etc. The Travel Air looks like a simple enough design that I can't imagine the drawing being all that big a job. Also if the budget permits, I can size the model to match a Saito .90 R3 radial!

I think you'll agree that modeling this subject is worth it! I'll be posting updates as the project continues.
Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version

Name:	Jh16547.jpg
Views:	113
Size:	24.4 KB
ID:	89777  
Old 01-12-2004, 10:21 AM
  #9  
CoosBayLumber
Senior Member
My Feedback: (1)
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: San Bernardino Calif
Posts: 3,757
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default RE: Are Cleveland Model plans good and worth the money?

Over the past year or so, I can remember one fellow wanting "any" plans for a Douglass DC-2 and another the Stinson Tri-motor. They ordered the plans in the enlarged scale, and reported back they were hopping mad. The plans were OK, but the enlargement was not worth the extra cost.

Wm.
Old 01-13-2004, 01:07 PM
  #10  
quint-rcu
Senior Member
My Feedback: (24)
 
quint-rcu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Ocean Springs, MS
Posts: 657
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Are Cleveland Model plans good and worth the money?

I'm about 60% complete on a Royal Staggerwing and except for the wheel well covers I found the plans excellent to scale when compared with the ship at the Naval Air Museum in Pensacola, FL. I wonder if you would want to try scaling them from 1/6 to 1/4, since they contain all the templates for cutting and would yield better quality prints...

quint
Old 01-17-2004, 10:14 PM
  #11  
barek
Junior Member
My Feedback: (1)
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: East Hartford, CT
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Are Cleveland Model plans good and worth the money?

Hi Quint, I noticed you're finishing a Royal Beech staggerwing...Are the plans still in good enough shape they can be scanned or copied? I'll pay you a believable sum for your efforts. I had a Royal Staggerwing but lost it in a fire...I've been looking for over 8 years and haven't found another kit anywhere! Anyway, I'm planning to do a 1/4 scale this time around and can use the Royal plans as a base to develop new plans. Nick Z. is working on a set but I'd like to get started earlier...

Thanks for any help...

Gary M.
Hampton, VA
Old 01-18-2004, 12:36 AM
  #12  
swooper
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
swooper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Victor, ID
Posts: 251
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Are Cleveland Model plans good and worth the money?

Check Hobby Barn for the Marutaka D-17, which they say is the same kit as was marketed by Royal.

MARUTAKA Beechcraft D-17 Staggerwing-
1/6 Scale -
56†w.s. -
.60 - .90 2 cycle,
.90 - 1.20 4 cycle -
4 - 6 Channel Kit Description $169.99

see it at [link=http://www.hobbybarn.com/airplanes_marutaka_kits.htm]hobby barn[/link]
Old 01-18-2004, 08:32 PM
  #13  
barek
Junior Member
My Feedback: (1)
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: East Hartford, CT
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Are Cleveland Model plans good and worth the money?

Thanks Swooper!
Old 01-19-2004, 09:52 AM
  #14  
quint-rcu
Senior Member
My Feedback: (24)
 
quint-rcu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Ocean Springs, MS
Posts: 657
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Are Cleveland Model plans good and worth the money?

Yes, the Marutaka kit is the same one that Royal used to import (from Marutaka). If you don't get one I can send you a copy for the actual copying costs. However, if you can live with roughly 1/6th scale, the kit is the way to go...

quint
Old 01-22-2004, 05:53 AM
  #15  
flicka5
My Feedback: (2)
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Jamestown, NY
Posts: 660
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Are Cleveland Model plans good and worth the money?

Building a 1/4 scale WACO bipe from blown up Cleveland rubber plans $50+. Possible but lots of redesign of plans for gas. Maybe, the reason I have been at it for several years? But, if no other plan available, faster(?) than starting with a 3view? Naw, that isn't my finished model but what it will look like if I ever finish?
Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version

Name:	Ca81552.jpg
Views:	151
Size:	53.2 KB
ID:	93123   Click image for larger version

Name:	Ie98290.jpg
Views:	161
Size:	41.9 KB
ID:	93124  
Old 01-24-2004, 04:03 PM
  #16  
scottscale
Junior Member
My Feedback: (1)
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Holland, OH
Posts: 22
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Are Cleveland Model plans good and worth the money?

I bought a 1/8 scale plan from Cleveland of the Stinson model A. It is, as most, a scaled up rubber model plan. Not totaly suitable for large scale R/C. I enlarged my Stinson 3 view and placed them over the Cleveland plans just to see how it matched up. It was close, but again, not suitable for competition. I decided to use the 3-view and draw my own plans.

The cleveland plans are expensive, so, I would suggest you keep looking, depending on your level of scale desires.
Old 01-24-2004, 07:56 PM
  #17  
swooper
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
swooper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Victor, ID
Posts: 251
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Are Cleveland Model plans good and worth the money?

Well, I received the Cleveland 1/16 scale Travel Air drawings rolled in a tube. There's a wealth of information on the 2 sheets. Drawings of several engines and front-end treatments, photos, scale details, etc. etc. The line drawings are clear and seem to show all the full-scale details needed. I'm starting to draw my own plans by CAD for a model 3 times the Cleveland drawing size. Since I'm using their drawings as reference but not actually copying them, I hope my plans will be my own legitimate property. Anyway, the Cleveland drawings were about $20 shipped and I'm happy to have them. As Bruce said, they'd look good framed.

Will post updates on this project.
Old 01-25-2004, 12:57 AM
  #18  
BMatthews
 
BMatthews's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Chilliwack, BC, CANADA
Posts: 12,425
Likes: 0
Received 22 Likes on 19 Posts
Default RE: Are Cleveland Model plans good and worth the money?

Who knows, perhaps you'll even join the free flight squad one day and make a rubber powered version off those plans.

I've done a few plans now where I drop the image onto the CAD screen and then trace over the key elements. It makes everything go a LOT faster. Scan in each portion using an image program then import each portion onto a separate wing, fuselage, tail and former files and join them all at once in the end for a presentation drawing.
Old 02-12-2004, 12:31 PM
  #19  
dicknadine
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Greensburg, LA
Posts: 2,261
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Are Cleveland Model plans good and worth the money?

the Clevland plans are good for starters. basically the outline,rib, stringerlocations, etc are all you will use. you will have use your judgement as to what size,thickness to upscale to. its easy after a few screw ups. it sure produces the unusual at the field. have done it a few times, (like 30-40). try it and enjoy the success and forget the screwups.
Old 02-13-2004, 12:06 AM
  #20  
swooper
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
swooper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Victor, ID
Posts: 251
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Are Cleveland Model plans good and worth the money?

I've done as suggested by Bruce, scanning the drawing, converting it to JPEG format, and inserting the JPEG picture into the CAD drawing. I used yellow lines to draw over the black line drawing for visibility. I just drew one line on one edge of each structural unit, rib, spar, etc. This yellow set of lines was then copied to a clear area (away from the JPEG picture) and changed to black. A horizontal and a vertical dimension were added and used to scale the new plan to the desired size of the model. When the new plan was selected and "stretched" by pulling on the selection corners, the dimensions would change, showing the degree of enlargement. Then the parallel line tool was used to draw the other edge of each rib, spar, etc. at the desired thickness (1/8, 1/4 or whatever). So far, the tail surfaces are drawn. Progress has ground to a halt, though, with new work assignments and my priority of skiing and snowboarding as much as possible.
Old 02-13-2004, 10:28 AM
  #21  
dicknadine
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Greensburg, LA
Posts: 2,261
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Are Cleveland Model plans good and worth the money?

quint. give me a shout. dick stamm

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.