CCRC1

My Feedback: (13)

I am looking for a basic CAD program to draw some profile fun fly designs that I have. I have ModelCAD and it is terrible to work with and understand. I was told that TurboCad Designer 9.2 is a very easy and user friendly way to learn CAD basics. I am not looking for high end 3D software, just a program that will teach me as I go and let me produce quality drawings that I can build from. Any recommendations?

blvdbuzzard

I have not been able to spend much time or as much as I should playing with Turbo CAD. I have found it does what I want t to. I picked it up from www.outpost.com at Christmas time. It is way beter the Model CAD. I have been able to get a fuse designed on it and that took me a while due to the fact I am in school full time again.

Dru.

DICKEYBIRD

TurboCAD Learning edition is available free from http://www.al-ki.com/tcad/download.php It's a full featured v4 that will do anything you need in the 2D CAD world. The price is right....free!

BMatthews

I don't know of any of the major programs that teaches you as you draw. But I did find that TurboCAD had what I wanted after trying most of the cheap or free CAD packages out there a few years back.

For TurboCAD in particular but any CAD in general I did the following hints for the functions or practices that I use the most and consider to the be most important to learn how to do with any CAD. This is bread and butter stuff that will let you make usable drawings with a minimum of fuss but should serve as a good grounding for extending your skills later. It's reprinted from an older thread...

__________________________________________________ _
OK, time for unca' Bruce's "Baker's Dozen TurboCAD Rulz"....

1- Learn to Snap. Learn what they are, how to invoke them, particularly the shortcuts, and USE them as much as possible. Only very rarely should you start or end an element without using a snap to grid, vertex, middle, center, etc. For TurboCAD this falls under the SEKE (Single Entry Keyboard Equivalent) list. I doubt I draw, move or modify more than 5% of my work without using a snap. This is not only rule #1 but it may be the most important rule as well. A CAD program sinks or swims on the basis of it's snap functions when you know what you are doing. It ensures accuracy and greatly speeds up performing accurate work. CAD programs that make this function hard to access and use should be relegated to life as a coffee table coaster.

2- Never draw the same thing twice. Sounds simple but sometimes you need to think about it. Tools that allow you to fullfill this tip are Mirror, Array copy (linear, radial and matrix) and Copy/Paste. When I work on a wing I'll do all the work on one side and then mirror the whole lot over. If I have to do a change I do it on one side, delete the WHOLE other side and just mirror the whole lot over again. Use the V key to snap to the ends of the center line or the G key to snap to the grid if you had the presence of mind to align your drawing to the grid lines. Only if I do a couple of simple ADDITIONS will I just mirror the additions. The wing ribs are done by drawing in ONE rib and then selecting it and using the Linear Array tool to replicate a whole set at the right spacing. Use the TAB key and enter the actual numbers in at the command bar on the bottom of the screen for accuracy.

3- When using the selector arrow you can add or drop objects to the group of selected objects by using the shift key. Pressing SHIFT brings up a little + beside the arrow. Don't pass over the fact that there are two selector types. The normal one and the Node edit one. The node edit one is particularly handy for changing the elements of a curved line but work on all types of elements. Here again you can either drop the node freehand or with a SEKE.

4- Placing elements or groups of elements accuratley can be done by using the snap. But often the reference point is not where you want it. Another SEKE that is useful in this case is the D key. Pressing that while elements are selected lets you move the reference point to anwhere you want. Dropping it using yet another SEKE ensures that you put it where you want it.

5- Use the right mouse button a lot. It brings up the greatest option boxes at the best times. It's position sensitive too. Over the drawing it has one set. If an item is selected it has another set of options. If you right click on a tool button it opens up the Properties for that tool, line type, text formating, etc.

6-Always draw in full size. It's a lot easier and the computer doesn't know or care if you're asking it to make the paper the size of Manhattan. It'll still come out fine on your 8.5x11 at print time if you just set the paper that way and check the "fit to page" box. This will save you a LOT of math and make the drawing correct for later printing at Kinkos or other large plotting services.

7-The hard drive has LOTS of room so don't ever delete anything. Allways keep the old file until you KNOW you won't need it and even then keep it for another month. THe same thing applies for the drawing. If you want to try some aesthetic changes to a model copy the present version and paste a second copy to one side and work with that until you are sure you like the new version better. In this vein I never work with my "final" plan at first. I work with a file where there are often 3 or 5 versions of the design scattered about with wing ribs everywhere. This is my rough file where no face can be too ugly to the point where it deserves deletion. From that rough file the final choices are made and whole wings and fuselages are cut and pasted to a final presentation file. Most of us do our best work on a scratch pad where there are no rules. This rough file IS that pad when you are comfy with your CAD. Models are an art form. It's OK to create mulitple versions of your own Picasso. (What do you MEAN I can't have both wings on the same side of the fuselage... )

8- The Trim tool is used for lines that are interrupted by overlying elements. To make the drawing look good you want to hide the bits underneath. The Trim tool is the one for this. You start by selecting a "cutting edge". You can add additional cutting edges by using the SHIFT key. Then click on the bit that goes past the line or under the double line or between the first and second cutting edge. For example you can SELECT all the ribs (double lines) in a wing panel as cutting edges and then click on the bits between each rib's double line to eliminate the hidden bit.

9- The Split tool is nice for splitting a large or long element into two or more if you need to move a part away. For example you want to "lift" the cockpit canopy off a nice long single curved sailplane fuselage side view. Use the Split tool to cut the curve at the ends of the canopy and then select the canopy part along with any formers or other parts and move it up as desired.

10-The Grid comes in handy for a lot of things and as a quick ruler that is always there. I like to set up the drawing so the grid is on and it shows at the 1/2 inch spacing with a heavier line at the 1 inch lines. I actually bring up the Grid Properties and set it to 1/4 inch and then set the frequency to 2 so that the lines still only show at the 1/2 and 1 inch marks.

11-TurboCAD let's you select line widths. Ignore this for the most part until the final stages of a drawing. Using that function to early actually draws the line thicker on the page and as you zoom in and out the line is thicker or thinner. It also make snapping to the line difficult as it treats it as a filled double line and you'll end up snapping to a corner rather than the center of the line as you intended. To make the lines thicker FOR THE PRINT ONLY go into the Options/Drawing Setup/Display and set the box at the bottom of the page where it says "Device pen width when zero value is used" to a new value. I find I like .010 for most 8.5 by 11 and increase it to .015 for vellum prints where I'll be making blackline prints from them later. Other line widths can be set to thicker by select and command as a final step. But save the last "zero width" drawing for reference because it's cumbersome to re-zero them later I found.

12-After a while you'll get to know how you want your drawing options set. At that point open a new drawing and set everything for one last time. Be sure to get it all. The text size and style, default line width, units of measurement, etc. Then save it in the Templates directory as a TCT template file with your name or Models or something like that so you can find it when starting a new drawing. You can also set up a paper size for little sketches if you wish with a border and nice title box. That's assuming that the stock ones aren't enough for you. There's dozens with the standard version of the software.

13- Line types. Just play with them. For curves my personal preference is for the Spline over the Bezier just because I find it easier to get a smooth form. For times where the curve line vertex MUST land on a specific point then use the Bezier and just learn to get along with the fine tuning (node edit mode). For edge on views of balsa the double line works great and allows for ideal and fast trimming as noted above. A trick to making curved sheeting lines is to form the curve baseline using the Spline or Bezier tool. Then right click the double line selection box to bring up the Properties and click on the Right or Left reference. Select the Mulitpoint Double Line and lay down a close spaced set of vertices using the curved baseline and the Near SEKE to snap the double line down onto the curved line. Yes these ARE all little tangent segments rather than a smooth line but if you keep the segments short where the curve is tight and not too far apart where it isn't then the error is lost in the line width during printing. It's cheating but it works and is fast.

dr_wogz

My Feedback: (3)

Take a drafting / cad course as well. CAD is just a tool, and is only as good as teh person pushing the mouse. Chances are , it'll be an Autocad course, but the concepts are basically teh same, and good drawing habits are essencial to creating good, manufacturable [sencible and easlily understood] designs..

I have worked with many engineers, some of whom 'insist' that since they are engineers, and have taken a CAD course, they are, by default, a Draftsman. Being a dradftsman, and having taken dafting courses, CAD courses, and a few Engineering courses, I know how to draw and how to show what I intend...

Sorry for the rant....

dreadnaut

My Feedback: (5)

I taught AutoCAD for three years. BMathews SOUNDS JUST LIKE ME!

I can't help but to add my two pesos to a couple of points he made.

point 7; My first computer was a 486 with a whopping eight meg of RAM and a 250Mb hard drive. ACAD v10 took up almost 25% of my drive space. Now, we have obscenely excessive capacity to save everything, and I do. What I would like to stress is that in this environment it is critical to be organized. Use the explorer to set up a filing system. If you dump everything into *My Documents*, you will have trouble finding anything, especially if you do not have a system for naming files. My files have a date in the filename.

point 8; I am not well versed in turbocad, but it sounds like it has many of the same features as AutoCAD. The trim function is very useful, as is a function in AutoCAD called extend.

If you have a line that comes up short of an object you want it to contact, use the extend function. A common beginners mistake is to draw a small line segment from the end that comes up short to where you want it to end. Not only have you created excess data, if you want to snap to the midpoint of the line, you will snap to the middle of a line that is too short and you have lost your precision

BMatthews

Excellent points dreadnaut.

I'm a fairly recent CAD convert so I'm used to having at least 3 or 400 meg available even from MY "old" days. Of course now I'm sitting here with a 180 Gb drive wondering how I'll EVER fill it up... Subdirectories and version names go a long ways to keeping things organized. An excellent reminder.

In TC we either use the modify or the node edit. In the first you select the item or items and then grab one of the side or corner marks and stretch it to fit. The amount of stretch can be snapped down where you want it. Alternately you go to the node edit mode and you can grab an end point of a simple line or one of the shaping points of a polyline or curve and move them about. Here again putting it in place usually with a snap. In node edit you can also right click and use the menu to add or delete nodes on multi node lines. Great for editing. One point though, if you want to use the trim tool to cut away overlapping bits of lines, like bits of ribs where the spar crosses them, then leave that work until last. When you trim away the underlaying bits and then find you need to stretch or move a line the trimmed bits stretch or otherwise move along with the modification and you end up with an odd drawing. So save the tidying up until last.

I don't know HOW many plans I've downloaded that used lot of little fiddly fixit lines like you said. It's really not the best way to do it in most cases and messes up changes later producing more work.

CCRC1

My Feedback: (13)

Whew boy!, I think I will stop by the local community college and see if they have a course I can take in the evenings. You guys are using terms that I am not familiar with, that sound like fundamental basics for using CAD. I think I have a lot to learn before it becomes simple.

dreadnaut

My Feedback: (5)

One suggestion, as long as you are going to the CC. (A wise move IMHO) If you have not taken a course in algebra, I highly recommend it. Also, in all my years as an engineer, the mathematic tool I have used the most (over 90%) is trigonometry. It really is not that hard, and will greatly enhance you CAD skill.

BMatthews

There is no doubt that it won't come naturally at first but it's not actually hard. I taught myself by doing an electronics schematic. I started with the simple stuff. Boxes and triangles and resistors and stuff. Those first few shapes were killers but once done important lessons that made it simple later were learned.

The message here is that it isn't hard. You just need to play with it and learn the controls. At least with TurboCAD the help function is very usable and has step by step instructions to perform what you want.

By all means take the course if you want but play with it in the meantime. This isn't one of those skills where you'll learn bad habits that cannot be broken later. Sure the class will clean up some bad practices you will pick up but you'll arrive with questions to ask and some basics under your belt so when the prof makes a point about something lights will click on and you'll find yourself aglow in sudden realizations...

Start simple. Find the grid and turn it on. Find the SEKE list and print it out and keep it close at hand until they become habit. Now click on the line tool and start making lines. Snap a few to the grid then start snapping lines to vertices (end points) and middle points. Play with putting down a horizontal line then use the Spline curve tool to draw the upper side of an airfoil. It'll look like beans at first but use the Node edit tool to fine tune the shape. Look all these things up in the Help and you'll soon be popping down lines and drawing mysterious airfoils like a champ.

CCRC1

My Feedback: (13)

Thanks for the help guys. I want to learn how to use this tool, so I appreciate the tips.

mhmitchell

I use spline quite a bit for curves. Also I use mirror copy in the "ortho mode" That way I dont have to draw the whole wing or top / bottom view of the fuselage just draw have using spline to get the curvature then mirror copy for other half.
Another feature is you can import a bitmap omage. This is neat because if you do that you can omport a 3 view and trace the image in a different color. Then when you are through tracing you can copy by color and past it to a new page, change the color back to black. The copy color will leave the bitmap alone and just pick up the tracing. You can do the same thing with layers but I find the color easier to do,

I alway save a copy of my drawings in dfx since I may not always have this program and most of the other programs and every plotter I have seen can use dfx.

CoosBayLumber

My Feedback: (1)

You have probably opened up a discussion that will derive numerous responces, but little solve the initial problem and I don't think there is a Magic Bullet either. I do an awfull lot of plans and to accomplish such there is currently four diferent CAD softwares loaded up on my home computers. Additionally, there are two airfoil softwares, two graphics softwares, two picture viewing/altering ones, two R-2-V softwares, and an endless looking list of LISP software used to alter the CAD. Then several plotter drivers, several digitizer drivers, a two graphics card drivers. Each of these has a use, and a specialty and they may be used only but 10 minutes per month to save a day's worth of work, but they all have a purpose for producing one end product, a drawing. One CAD software works good with an old pen plotter, another with a raster plotter, a third works great with digitizing tablets. Figure it like buying an automobile that you expect to get good mileage, haul six adults, low maintenace, be able to tow a large trailer, drive off road, and still be affordable and fit into your garage. You really need 2-3 cars to accomplish what is intended. Don't buy the first one you try, and don't trust a salesman. Another consideration is that of compatibility. Many folks using CAD are still operating Windows 98 as it is compatible with lot of hardware. Make sure whatever system you get it can speak to someone running on an older platform, or you may be forced to converse with only those running pricey systems. Kind of like driving that new auto out of the state or out of the country. Can't always find the proper gasoline for it.

I have taken several CAD adult school and college credit courses over the years. Each of the instructors have their point of view and the students are expected to concentrate on some minute feature, and ignor the remaining functions. One instructor was a part time architect, another worked on modular homes, another worked with the Toyota truck bed assembly plant and one other instructor had worked for Packard Motors then went to work for Donald Douglas aiding in the finishing touches to the DC-3. All were good, but you only got their point of view, none of which matched my interests. They all came up with simple solutions to the creation of something, but then again when the whole character of the task was laid out, they became stumpted. As mentioned here, certain software or methods will give certain results, but that may not be the most concise or correct way too.



Wm.

mhmitchell

Auto Cad makes a home version (I dont remember the title but it says on the box "By AutoDesk or somethging like that). If you take a course it most likely will be in AutoCad so this product ($80 I think) will function just like autocad. I personally use Turbo Cad designer. Which is very close to AutoCad. I have used several packages incl 3 versions of AutoCad . TurboCad is very inespensive and you can save in several formats. It also has a program that can change a bitmap (bmp) to a cad drawing. It wotks great sometimes but otheres it just vreates too many layers which have to be turned off one at a time until you get an outline. Turbo cad also has a 3D feature for what ever that is worth to you.

As stated in the previous post there are many programs out there. I also use Adobe Illustrator for converted almost any format to PDF or DFX. It does a better job than TurboCad for conversions. It also has a tiling feature so you can divide a large plan into 8.5x11 that you can tape together. TurboCad also has a tiling feature.