My winter project
08-06-2002, 12:03 PM
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My winter project
I`ve started planning for my winter project this year, it will be a pattern plane made for YS 91 FZ engine. Wings & stab will be made of foam, stiffened up with carbon fiber rods and covered with balsa, then monokote. I will remove unnecessary foam to make the plane light.
I have not decided what materials I will use in the fuselage, maybe carbon fiber and Kevlar because of the stiffness & weight. The plug will be made out of balsa, with normal formers (formers cut out with laser machine).
I haven`t decided which profiles to use, but it will probably be a 12-13% thick symmetrical one at the wing root, and 10% thick at wing tips. The stab will probably be a 10% symmetrical airfoil. The wing platform will be something similar to modern 2-meter pattern-ships, just smaller.
I have got access to CAD software, but I really don`t know much about using it. Is there a good site out there with CAD tutorials? I probably won`t bother drawing the entire plane on computer, just the parts that will be cut in the laser machine (formers for fuse plug).
The fuse will probably be 175-180cm long, the wingspan around 170. I will build everything as light as possible, and hope to get the weight (with engine and radio equipment) around 3kg, at least not over 3,5kg.
Any suggestions/tips or comments are very welcome, I will post pics here as I get along with the work..
I have not decided what materials I will use in the fuselage, maybe carbon fiber and Kevlar because of the stiffness & weight. The plug will be made out of balsa, with normal formers (formers cut out with laser machine).
I haven`t decided which profiles to use, but it will probably be a 12-13% thick symmetrical one at the wing root, and 10% thick at wing tips. The stab will probably be a 10% symmetrical airfoil. The wing platform will be something similar to modern 2-meter pattern-ships, just smaller.
I have got access to CAD software, but I really don`t know much about using it. Is there a good site out there with CAD tutorials? I probably won`t bother drawing the entire plane on computer, just the parts that will be cut in the laser machine (formers for fuse plug).
The fuse will probably be 175-180cm long, the wingspan around 170. I will build everything as light as possible, and hope to get the weight (with engine and radio equipment) around 3kg, at least not over 3,5kg.
Any suggestions/tips or comments are very welcome, I will post pics here as I get along with the work..
08-06-2002, 05:35 PM
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RC Design with CAD
I'm one of the people who's been trying to promote 3D as a good method of design for models, now that it's become so (relatively) inexpensive. I routinely check all my designs in 3D now, before I build them. (See image attached)
Even if 3D is not used to produce plans, it still has what I think are valuable uses in the overall visualization of designs. One of the new designs on my site is a Pattern-type plane, that can be converted, by switching wings, to 3 different variants.
I've also developed a CAD tutorial on my (non-commercial) web site below. (Just click the "www" button.
Good luck!
Even if 3D is not used to produce plans, it still has what I think are valuable uses in the overall visualization of designs. One of the new designs on my site is a Pattern-type plane, that can be converted, by switching wings, to 3 different variants.
I've also developed a CAD tutorial on my (non-commercial) web site below. (Just click the "www" button.
Good luck!
08-06-2002, 07:54 PM
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My winter project
You may want to hold off on using Carbon Fiber as a main material for your plane. I've heard that Carbon Fiber can interfere with your radio. I don't know if this is true or not, but I'm just giving you a heads up.
The place I went when I was learning CAD is www.3dcafe.com in the free section. It's basically most of the tutorials on the internet categorized for easy use. I also wrote a CAD tutorial, though I doubt it's for your program. It's at www.military-meshes.com . I hope this helps.
What program do you plan on learning ?
The place I went when I was learning CAD is www.3dcafe.com in the free section. It's basically most of the tutorials on the internet categorized for easy use. I also wrote a CAD tutorial, though I doubt it's for your program. It's at www.military-meshes.com . I hope this helps.
What program do you plan on learning ?
08-06-2002, 08:58 PM
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My winter project
Mike, if I had the training in CAD software that is needed to make a 3d model, i would definately do it. However, I hardly know anything about CAD software, and I don`t know if i bother to learn autocad just to make this plane. I have visited your website Mike, and found it very interesting, I especially liked the "convertible" pattern plane you are making.
Carbon fiber is metal, and because of that, it may interfere with the radio, but that doesn`t necessary mean that it will interfere. If you have a fuselage made only of carbon fiber, and the antenna is inside the fuselage, I think it would interfere, but if I just mount the antenna in a clever way, and use carbon fiber only where the stiffness is needed, it should work out OK. (at least, I hope so
)
Thank`s for the URL`s AKMac, I`m going to use autocad 2002 to the CAD part.
Mike, I`ve seen that you are posting quite a bit about CAD/3D on these forums (AKMac too), how do you print/plot your work? I will probably go to a copying store or something for a start, but being able to print drawings at home would make things easier (and make it more fun)..
Carbon fiber is metal, and because of that, it may interfere with the radio, but that doesn`t necessary mean that it will interfere. If you have a fuselage made only of carbon fiber, and the antenna is inside the fuselage, I think it would interfere, but if I just mount the antenna in a clever way, and use carbon fiber only where the stiffness is needed, it should work out OK. (at least, I hope so
)Thank`s for the URL`s AKMac, I`m going to use autocad 2002 to the CAD part.
Mike, I`ve seen that you are posting quite a bit about CAD/3D on these forums (AKMac too), how do you print/plot your work? I will probably go to a copying store or something for a start, but being able to print drawings at home would make things easier (and make it more fun)..
08-06-2002, 09:29 PM
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c.f fuse
[QUOTE]Originally posted by AKMac
[B]You may want to hold off on using Carbon Fiber as a main material for your plane. I've heard that Carbon Fiber can interfere with your radio. I don't know if this is true or not, but I'm just giving you a heads up.
Several friends of mine and I fly 2 meter planes that the fuse and stab are made of c.f. We just run the antenna out the bottom of the fuse... no problems. My buddy says he "thought" he was getting pcm lockup on his till he ran the antenna outside. So we just run on all our c.f. ships outside just for good measure. The c.f. fuses are stiffer and about the same weight as fiberglass.
Our new ship the ARIES (see this website )http://home.attbi.com/~aeroslave/index.htm
is made two ways. 1) fiberglass with cormat sandwiched inbetween anothe layer of fiberglass 2) all carbon fiber with cormat on the inside only from the back of the wing to the rudder. Very stiff yet light enough to make this 2meter plane come in at about 10 1/2 lbs. (11lbs is the FAI/AMA limit)
Dont be afraid of c.f. it is a good building material. It works best if you can vacum bag the mold after laying it up because c.f. does not want to lay down like fiberglass
[B]You may want to hold off on using Carbon Fiber as a main material for your plane. I've heard that Carbon Fiber can interfere with your radio. I don't know if this is true or not, but I'm just giving you a heads up.
Several friends of mine and I fly 2 meter planes that the fuse and stab are made of c.f. We just run the antenna out the bottom of the fuse... no problems. My buddy says he "thought" he was getting pcm lockup on his till he ran the antenna outside. So we just run on all our c.f. ships outside just for good measure. The c.f. fuses are stiffer and about the same weight as fiberglass.
Our new ship the ARIES (see this website )http://home.attbi.com/~aeroslave/index.htm
is made two ways. 1) fiberglass with cormat sandwiched inbetween anothe layer of fiberglass 2) all carbon fiber with cormat on the inside only from the back of the wing to the rudder. Very stiff yet light enough to make this 2meter plane come in at about 10 1/2 lbs. (11lbs is the FAI/AMA limit)
Dont be afraid of c.f. it is a good building material. It works best if you can vacum bag the mold after laying it up because c.f. does not want to lay down like fiberglass
08-06-2002, 09:53 PM
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My winter project
Toymaker, when you say vacuum back the mold, do you use a vacuum pump for this? I could probably get hold of one, would be nice to have when balsa planking wings too. 10 1/2lbs doesn`t seem very light to me, the guys in my club that build light 2 meter pattern planes get the weight around 4kg, I really have major problems understanding American way of measurement, but 10 1/2lbs is more than 4kg`s or am I wrong (again)?
08-06-2002, 10:01 PM
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My winter project
10.5lbs = 4.76 kg's
Anyways, that's nice to know about running the antenna outside when using a carbon fiber body. I've thought about making a plane out of Kevlar, but that stuff is pretty expensive and I really don't know much about how it will handle a load. Any thoughts?
Anyways, that's nice to know about running the antenna outside when using a carbon fiber body. I've thought about making a plane out of Kevlar, but that stuff is pretty expensive and I really don't know much about how it will handle a load. Any thoughts?
08-06-2002, 10:24 PM
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KEVLAR
Kevlar is difficult to work with as it is tough stuff to cut and mold.
As for the weight seeming heavy... you have to consider this ARIES is a wide body/large volume fuse. I am sure if you use c.f wing tube and c.f muffler and c.f landing gear and honeycomb the wings and are ultra careful with the painting you can achieve less then 10lb.s Look at Quique's Excelence, he claims 9.5 lbs and its a c.f. fuse. This airplane will still fly straight up out of site at 10.5 lbs with a std. O.S. 1.4. so I don't think it is very prudent to spend extra $$$ just for a few ounces... unless you build heavy.
I meant vacuum bag... dahh cant spell.
You need a good vacuum pump that can handle running for extended periods or have one that has a pressure switch to keep the vacuum on. Vacum baggin also helps keep the weight down to a minimum as it helps to wick excess resin out of the layup. Of course you need a material that will absorb the excess resin on the inside of your layup, fiberglass, felt anything that is absorbent.
As for the weight seeming heavy... you have to consider this ARIES is a wide body/large volume fuse. I am sure if you use c.f wing tube and c.f muffler and c.f landing gear and honeycomb the wings and are ultra careful with the painting you can achieve less then 10lb.s Look at Quique's Excelence, he claims 9.5 lbs and its a c.f. fuse. This airplane will still fly straight up out of site at 10.5 lbs with a std. O.S. 1.4. so I don't think it is very prudent to spend extra $$$ just for a few ounces... unless you build heavy.
I meant vacuum bag... dahh cant spell.
You need a good vacuum pump that can handle running for extended periods or have one that has a pressure switch to keep the vacuum on. Vacum baggin also helps keep the weight down to a minimum as it helps to wick excess resin out of the layup. Of course you need a material that will absorb the excess resin on the inside of your layup, fiberglass, felt anything that is absorbent.
08-07-2002, 12:22 PM
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My winter project
4,7kg isn`t heavy, on a 2 meter plane, with a weight around 4kg, 140RX with a silencer (not tuned pipe!) i kind of overkill.. Power is not really a subject if you are below 5kg and have the 140RX, I just like light planes 
08-07-2002, 12:54 PM
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KILO...LBS....
Originally posted by Thomasr
4,7kg isn`t heavy, on a 2 meter plane, with a weight around 4kg, 140RX with a silencer (not tuned pipe!) i kind of overkill.. Power is not really a subject if you are below 5kg and have the 140RX, I just like light planes
4,7kg isn`t heavy, on a 2 meter plane, with a weight around 4kg, 140RX with a silencer (not tuned pipe!) i kind of overkill.. Power is not really a subject if you are below 5kg and have the 140RX, I just like light planes
Whats the formula to convert lbs./oz to kilos/grams?
I know 1.6 x kilometers gets you close on miles
08-07-2002, 07:24 PM
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My winter project
I`d like one of those lessons too.. Or i could just find a conversion table online, has to be one somewhere? (If anyone reading this knows about one, please reply with the URL )
)
08-07-2002, 11:29 PM
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Stuff...
AKMAC,,
I read your tutorial on making a battleship hull in 3DS... Nice job!
Thomasr,
I don't attempt to use CAD to produce paper plans directly. Instead, I take 3-views and cross sections produced in my CAD program to the local copy shop , as you mentioned, where (for black and white) they can produce any large size I want, for around $1/sq. yd... This is very inexpensive. Then, I overlay some gridded vellum on those images and draw my own plans by hand, editing anything I don't like, as I go. That's how I did the plans for the King Air, ( http://www.nextcraft.com/b200_construction01.html ) and it was very precise.
Toymaker,
The "Aires" is a beauty! I've never made an entire part out of Kevlar, but instead, use pieces laminated between glass, at those parts of the airframe where I need more stiffness or toughness. (like engine cowlings) I like carbon of course, but it's a bit expensive for me, since I generally don't do mass production.
I read your tutorial on making a battleship hull in 3DS... Nice job!
Thomasr,
I don't attempt to use CAD to produce paper plans directly. Instead, I take 3-views and cross sections produced in my CAD program to the local copy shop , as you mentioned, where (for black and white) they can produce any large size I want, for around $1/sq. yd... This is very inexpensive. Then, I overlay some gridded vellum on those images and draw my own plans by hand, editing anything I don't like, as I go. That's how I did the plans for the King Air, ( http://www.nextcraft.com/b200_construction01.html ) and it was very precise.
Toymaker,
The "Aires" is a beauty! I've never made an entire part out of Kevlar, but instead, use pieces laminated between glass, at those parts of the airframe where I need more stiffness or toughness. (like engine cowlings) I like carbon of course, but it's a bit expensive for me, since I generally don't do mass production.
