Concorde Project
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Concorde Project
Hi Guys,
I am new to this site, i am currently thinking on building flying model of Concorde, i cant afford turbines at this time but would like to utilize what i have, I want to build Concorde with 2 60sz engines mounted in each engine nacelles with pushes prop on them, now i would like to know if anyone has already done something of this nature before and what were the results in the end.
My model's specs..
length to be: 100"-110" w/drooping nose and working visor
wingspan: 50"-55" approx
weight: 9-11lbs dry
Retracts: none on first one
Capability: Take off and land on grass runways mostly.
Radio: 6 chl futaba
I would like to do built up balsa and light ply fuse with foam core wings and glass engine nacelles and nose.
To do my own plans i will be cutting up 1/144 plastic kit to make cross section templates for fuse and ribs for wing.
Before i start my own thing is there anyone on this site who can guide me with this project?, i would appreciate all the help possible. Thnx in advance
Sammy
I am new to this site, i am currently thinking on building flying model of Concorde, i cant afford turbines at this time but would like to utilize what i have, I want to build Concorde with 2 60sz engines mounted in each engine nacelles with pushes prop on them, now i would like to know if anyone has already done something of this nature before and what were the results in the end.
My model's specs..
length to be: 100"-110" w/drooping nose and working visor
wingspan: 50"-55" approx
weight: 9-11lbs dry
Retracts: none on first one
Capability: Take off and land on grass runways mostly.
Radio: 6 chl futaba
I would like to do built up balsa and light ply fuse with foam core wings and glass engine nacelles and nose.
To do my own plans i will be cutting up 1/144 plastic kit to make cross section templates for fuse and ribs for wing.
Before i start my own thing is there anyone on this site who can guide me with this project?, i would appreciate all the help possible. Thnx in advance
Sammy
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RE: Concorde Project
Hi,
Vicman do you have any ways how to get intouch with Mr.Parker?, do you know what club he belongs to or maybe what part of Ontario he resides in?.....
Sammy
Vicman do you have any ways how to get intouch with Mr.Parker?, do you know what club he belongs to or maybe what part of Ontario he resides in?.....
Sammy
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RE: Concorde Project
Hi,
I finally found Mr.Peter's email and contact, i have emailled him and now lets see when he replies, apprently he is not good in replying back to guys, i found this out at other fourm...but its hope he does.
Sammy
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RE: Concorde Project
ORIGINAL: CONCORDEFAN
.....2 60sz engines mounted in each engine nacelles .....
My model's specs..
length to be: 100"-110" w/drooping nose and working visor
wingspan: 50"-55" approx
weight: 9-11lbs dry
.....2 60sz engines mounted in each engine nacelles .....
My model's specs..
length to be: 100"-110" w/drooping nose and working visor
wingspan: 50"-55" approx
weight: 9-11lbs dry
If you want to stick with the 4 x .60's then figure on upping the model size by at least 50% over what you have shown. Or if you have the engines already then drop back to one engine in each nacelle and up the size by 20% to a 60 to 65 inch span. Shoot for about 1200-1300 sq inches of wing area for 2 x .60. And an all up weight of around 15 lbs, or a bit less if you can manage it.
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RE: Concorde Project
HI,
Bruce i understand what you are saying, i tought about it too myself but the thing is that if i just have 2x 46s that way upon coming on landing if something happens with cross winds and i get drifted there i dont imagine i would have enough power to pull out of it!, we have death valley besides our runway so i have to consider that too, plus extra power is always good to have then lack of power.....specially on such a huge delta winged aircraft.....
Sammy
Bruce i understand what you are saying, i tought about it too myself but the thing is that if i just have 2x 46s that way upon coming on landing if something happens with cross winds and i get drifted there i dont imagine i would have enough power to pull out of it!, we have death valley besides our runway so i have to consider that too, plus extra power is always good to have then lack of power.....specially on such a huge delta winged aircraft.....
Sammy
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RE: Concorde Project
Have you considered making a foam prototype that has the shape, size and weight of final design. Use pusher props (2) and see how it flies. The foam prototype would not be painted. You could make it from blue or white foam and would probably only last 10 or 20 flights but would confirm the flying weight, performance and handling. A friend of mine built a foam flying test bed for a northrop flying wing and it was very helpful to determine CG and flyabilty
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RE: Concorde Project
Hi Fred,
First thing i want is to find out is right airfoil to use on this model, since i want it to fly good on lower speeds and not to stall out, i have to figure this out, i am thinking of taking actual airfoil and thickening it by 25% and see how it works, i also need to find CG on this wing and that could be trickey too, your suggestion of making one out of foam is quite good, i will try it this way first rather going full bore on actual model....
Fred can you ask your friend how he find out C.G on his wing?
Sammy
First thing i want is to find out is right airfoil to use on this model, since i want it to fly good on lower speeds and not to stall out, i have to figure this out, i am thinking of taking actual airfoil and thickening it by 25% and see how it works, i also need to find CG on this wing and that could be trickey too, your suggestion of making one out of foam is quite good, i will try it this way first rather going full bore on actual model....
Fred can you ask your friend how he find out C.G on his wing?
Sammy
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RE: Concorde Project
Concorde, by adding 4 x .60 to that size you are almost pretty much guaranteeing that you end up overweight and suffer from the very stalling issue you are trying to avoid. If it helps think of it this way.... A single 46 will fly a 6 lb 600 sq inch model in a mid range aerobatic manner. So if you can build a 12 lb 1200 sq in model then 2 x .46 will fly it wonderfully with lots of oomph to get it out of trouble as long as you learn to handle the deep stall high drag landing approaches. As a fixed gear test platform I don't see why you can't build a 1200 sq inch 12 lb version. Especially if it's mostly carved out foam.
A large part of flying will be learning to deal with the high drag deep stall landing approach. I believe that the Concorde does not use landing flaps but rather relies on the stable deep stall of the sharp angled delta configuration. The biggest issue would be ensuring the landing gear is long enough to prevent the props dragging during a landing or takeoff. I would suggest that the be mounted up on the surface of the wing at the rear rather than down in the nacelle area just to get some extra prop clearance.
For finding the CG I suggest a simple profile fuselage glider with about a 12 to 16 inch span and whatever length is scale. Keep moving the CG back until it won't recover from a stall or does not fly in a stable manner. Move it back forward a bit until it will fly nicely with a long stall recovery. If the stall recovery is short and the pitch up is sharp then it's too nose heavy. 1/16th sheet for the wings and fin and 1/8 for the fuselage is all you need.
The airfoil is another issue. The scale airfoil is intended for use at supersonic speeds that don't apply to you. The chord of the wing makes anything other than a flat plate pretty much useless unless you make it so thick that it'll look silly. A flat plate, or near to it, with a drooped leading edge is probably all you need. Just take the first 5 yp 7% pf the wing chord and droop it down about 10 degrees and there you have it. Something like below. The droop snoot gives you a nice roll over at the higher angles of attack and the upsweep at the rear gives you your reflext needed for the delta planform. At the tips the upsweep and leading edge droop combine to provide built in washout. Oddly enough this airfoil is not that far off the only slightly shaplier one used by the F102 Delta Dart. Also note that I showed this sketch as quite thick so you get the idea of the shape. In practice you can make it as thin as practical with no detriment.
A large part of flying will be learning to deal with the high drag deep stall landing approach. I believe that the Concorde does not use landing flaps but rather relies on the stable deep stall of the sharp angled delta configuration. The biggest issue would be ensuring the landing gear is long enough to prevent the props dragging during a landing or takeoff. I would suggest that the be mounted up on the surface of the wing at the rear rather than down in the nacelle area just to get some extra prop clearance.
For finding the CG I suggest a simple profile fuselage glider with about a 12 to 16 inch span and whatever length is scale. Keep moving the CG back until it won't recover from a stall or does not fly in a stable manner. Move it back forward a bit until it will fly nicely with a long stall recovery. If the stall recovery is short and the pitch up is sharp then it's too nose heavy. 1/16th sheet for the wings and fin and 1/8 for the fuselage is all you need.
The airfoil is another issue. The scale airfoil is intended for use at supersonic speeds that don't apply to you. The chord of the wing makes anything other than a flat plate pretty much useless unless you make it so thick that it'll look silly. A flat plate, or near to it, with a drooped leading edge is probably all you need. Just take the first 5 yp 7% pf the wing chord and droop it down about 10 degrees and there you have it. Something like below. The droop snoot gives you a nice roll over at the higher angles of attack and the upsweep at the rear gives you your reflext needed for the delta planform. At the tips the upsweep and leading edge droop combine to provide built in washout. Oddly enough this airfoil is not that far off the only slightly shaplier one used by the F102 Delta Dart. Also note that I showed this sketch as quite thick so you get the idea of the shape. In practice you can make it as thin as practical with no detriment.
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RE: Concorde Project
Bruce, first of all i dont understand where you got this idea that i want to use 4x 60sz engines!, from very begining i have been talking about 2 60sz powered model...regardless to that it makes sence what you said about weight and using 2 46sz engines...i think my model that should weight 11 Lbs + - should have plenty of power in event of deep stall on landings....I will get foam in day or two and start cutting wing into shape, i see why there are redically deep and high flat curves in the wing profile of Concorde. As for C.G i was lifting my plastic model almost on the wing where gears are mounted and it stayed flat in air at that point, but when i moved my fingers bit forward then tail sinked a bit!, so i guess considering plastic kit, finding CG on this model wont be a big issue...
Thnks
Sammy
Thnks
Sammy
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RE: Concorde Project
ORIGINAL: CONCORDEFAN
....I want to build Concorde with 2 60sz engines mounted in each engine nacelles.....
....I want to build Concorde with 2 60sz engines mounted in each engine nacelles.....
two 60's would be much more in keeping with that size for sure and consistent with your desire for some extra power in case of issues. From what I've read about high sweep angle deltas the deep stall condition can take some finess or lots of power to get out of so the extra power might just be a good thing. It's sort of like a powerboat having to climb over it's own wake to come up onto a plane.
Best of luck with an interesting project. I'll be looking forward to seeing and hearing about your efforts.
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RE: Concorde Project
I think he was just using that as a guide to determine the overall model density and balance point to figure out if he even has a fighting chance of getting the CG in the right place.
Of course putting two engines at the extreme tail end will ensure that the long nose is needed to mount the nose weight that'll be required. From looking at a 3 view it looks like my guesstimate CG means that it'll need a nose weight equivalent to 1 engine to 1 1/2 engines to balance the engine weight.
Of course putting two engines at the extreme tail end will ensure that the long nose is needed to mount the nose weight that'll be required. From looking at a 3 view it looks like my guesstimate CG means that it'll need a nose weight equivalent to 1 engine to 1 1/2 engines to balance the engine weight.
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RE: Concorde Project
Hi SST,
I know plastic model means nothing compaired to flying model, i just used that as referance point of view, well i asked about finding C.G on delta wing by fellow members and they said there is a formula that could be appiled to fing right C.G on delta wing, does any of you fellows know that formula?.....Othe other hand preety much most of the RC planes out there need nose weight, so thats already given, i will have to put weight by cockpit area, i am saying this because i want my nose to be fully functional with visor too, i will do nose, tail cone, engine nacelles form fiberglass or someother composite material.
Cheers,
Sammy
I know plastic model means nothing compaired to flying model, i just used that as referance point of view, well i asked about finding C.G on delta wing by fellow members and they said there is a formula that could be appiled to fing right C.G on delta wing, does any of you fellows know that formula?.....Othe other hand preety much most of the RC planes out there need nose weight, so thats already given, i will have to put weight by cockpit area, i am saying this because i want my nose to be fully functional with visor too, i will do nose, tail cone, engine nacelles form fiberglass or someother composite material.
Cheers,
Sammy
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RE: Concorde Project
The flying wing my friend flew was the Northrop N9MB, the Concorde has completely different configuration. One hint as to the location of the CG on the full size aircraft is that the main gear is slightly behind the CG, not very exact but at least a starting point.
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RE: Concorde Project
Sammy
Here is a link to a site that discusses finding the CofG of various wing geometries. I think you've got some reading to do.
http://adamone.rchomepage.com/index5.htm
Here is a link to a site that discusses finding the CofG of various wing geometries. I think you've got some reading to do.
http://adamone.rchomepage.com/index5.htm
#18
RE: Concorde Project
I know you are looking at twin 60's, but what about ducted fans instead of pushers? It would eliminate the clearance problem with the exposed props, give you a way to use tuned pipes for the exhausts, and keep a scale appearance. One other thing is it may let you move the engines further forward, making less nose weight needed for balancing your plane
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RE: Concorde Project
CONCOREDAN:
Look up a man down in the USA by the name of MIKE JAMES. He is all over these forums at RCU. He has all kinds of text & directions on how to cut up a plastic model in order to make a set of plans from.
marwen
Look up a man down in the USA by the name of MIKE JAMES. He is all over these forums at RCU. He has all kinds of text & directions on how to cut up a plastic model in order to make a set of plans from.
marwen
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RE: Concorde Project
I am back to this project...
I couldn't get hold of Mr. Peter Leung or Mike James!, i have wasted alot time and now i finally contacted owner of a site who is dedicated to this marbelous aircraft, i am hoping he could help me with actual airfoil of the aircraft and i'll ask someone to work with me on creating one for subsonic speed so my model would fly smooth, stable and in pointed direction. I also contacted Bruce thorpe and he provided me with some info on CG point of this model, but it still have to be refigured out after airfoil is generated for my model...
I have changed my mind form props to DF as power plant for this model, this will clear up the problem with rotations and ground clearence issues. I will most likely will be going with tractor fan unit with 2x .45-.46 VRDF, i dont think there are any pusher unit with 3"-4" of diameter to fit nicely in engine necelles...
I have also incresed the dry weight of this model to 14lbs- 16lbs dry, i highly dought if i can achieve my original stated weights in first post but all other diementions will stay the same.
Sammy
I couldn't get hold of Mr. Peter Leung or Mike James!, i have wasted alot time and now i finally contacted owner of a site who is dedicated to this marbelous aircraft, i am hoping he could help me with actual airfoil of the aircraft and i'll ask someone to work with me on creating one for subsonic speed so my model would fly smooth, stable and in pointed direction. I also contacted Bruce thorpe and he provided me with some info on CG point of this model, but it still have to be refigured out after airfoil is generated for my model...
I have changed my mind form props to DF as power plant for this model, this will clear up the problem with rotations and ground clearence issues. I will most likely will be going with tractor fan unit with 2x .45-.46 VRDF, i dont think there are any pusher unit with 3"-4" of diameter to fit nicely in engine necelles...
I have also incresed the dry weight of this model to 14lbs- 16lbs dry, i highly dought if i can achieve my original stated weights in first post but all other diementions will stay the same.
Sammy
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RE: Concorde Project
I believe Mike's website is [link=http://www.nextcraft.com/rcindex.html]http://www.nextcraft.com/rcindex.html[/link]. Lots of interesting information on this website, including his technique for cutting up a plastic model to create former outlines.
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RE: Concorde Project
As a suggestion, why not build a depron prototype of about 70 inches lenght with 4 brushless electric motors with pusher props? this would be fast and cheap to do and it would fly great.
Best regards, Enrique
Best regards, Enrique
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RE: Concorde Project
Hi grh814,
Thanks for providing me with Mike's link i have contacted him, and now hopefully i will be on my way to find right airfoil to do right wing structure...
Erbroens,
I dont have anything to with electrics for now, may be in future but as for Prototype yes that is what i will be doing first to see how wing is going to handle in the air...
Sammy
Thanks for providing me with Mike's link i have contacted him, and now hopefully i will be on my way to find right airfoil to do right wing structure...
Erbroens,
I dont have anything to with electrics for now, may be in future but as for Prototype yes that is what i will be doing first to see how wing is going to handle in the air...
Sammy