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What counts as scratch built?

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What counts as scratch built?

Old 12-06-2005, 06:16 PM
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sed6
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Default What counts as scratch built?

All-
I'm attempting my first build up, a Fokker DR-1 as featured in the latest Backyard Flyer. I have a short kit from Pat's Custom Models, which doesn't include sticks or sheeting, just the formers and ribs and a few other laser cut parts; plus it includes the plans. My question to you is does this count as scratch building or is it kit building? My inclination is scratch, as I am providing alot of the wood, all the hardware and working from plans, but I do have the BYF write up and some online build photos to help me along. Like I said I'm new to this and would definately like some opinions as to what constitutes scratch building. Thanks!
Old 12-06-2005, 06:55 PM
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saramos
 
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Default RE: What counts as scratch built?

General consensus is that scratch building is when you design and build your own plane. It can be a unique design or a scale model. If you design your own plane, and have the parts cut from a cutting service, I would think that it would still be called building from scratch. What you are building would generally be called kit building, since you are building from a short kit. Yes, you do have to supply your own sticks and sheets, but that is a fairly minor issue since it is all standard (or should be). There are many who hold the opinion that if you build from plans, cutting all your own parts, that it is still not scratch building. I've yet to form an opinion on that.

Scott
Old 12-06-2005, 07:07 PM
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iaclmac
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Default RE: What counts as scratch built?

I agree with you ... if any part comes from a kit it should be considered kit built. However, it is my opinion that if the project is TOTALLY built from plans ... That to me is scratch built. I do not believe it say anywhere, that in order to be scratch built, it also has to be self designed. That would be like saying when you bake a cake from a box ... it is a box mix. But if you follow a reciep it is considered made from scratch. Might be the wrong anology .... but I am not sure quite how to put it.
Old 12-06-2005, 07:40 PM
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Campy
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Default RE: What counts as scratch built?

ORIGINAL: sed6

All-
I'm attempting my first build up, a Fokker DR-1 as featured in the latest Backyard Flyer. I have a short kit from Pat's Custom Models, which doesn't include sticks or sheeting, just the formers and ribs and a few other laser cut parts; plus it includes the plans. My question to you is does this count as scratch building or is it kit building? My inclination is scratch, as I am providing alot of the wood, all the hardware and working from plans, but I do have the BYF write up and some online build photos to help me along. Like I said I'm new to this and would definately like some opinions as to what constitutes scratch building. Thanks!
You are going to get a lot of different answers on this one.

TECHNICALLY, scratch building is designing your own plans, then cutting the parts and finally building the plane.

Today, with time for the majority of people at a premium, scratch building is TYPICALLY building from a set of plans (again, typically someone elses plans ), cutting your own parts and building the plane.

Again, due to the time constraints on many AND/OR the lack of equipment/skills, many people have the parts cut (usually by a 'kitcutter' ) and then build the plane.

For myself, I have done ONE plane from the get-go - designing the plans, etc. NEVER AGAIN !!! My CAD skills are non existant and my drafting skills (pen/pencil and paper ) are not much better.

Depending on the plane and the complexity/quantity of parts I will either cut them myself OR send it out to be cut. I am in the finishing stages of a Transavia PL-12 (Airtruk ) that I had kit cut due to the complexity of a number of parts. On the other hand I did everything but design the plans (Cleveland Model Supply http://www.clevelandairline.com/ ) for a Bellanca AirBus.

For myself, I consider building from plans with the parts either done by yourself OR a kitcutter to be a scratch built. While you may have some reference photos and sketches you do not have any type of manual telling you how to do it and in what order and in some cases there are no references to equipment/hardware either. The difference, to me, is the ability of the builder to think, inovate, improvise and, if need be, re-engineer the plans so they will work. A kit is just following directions (although some of the directions I have seen lately 'leave something to be desired' )

The silver parasol wing (FW-56 Stosser ) is my ONE scratch built. The other is the Airbus from the cleveland plans.
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Old 12-06-2005, 08:09 PM
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Default RE: What counts as scratch built?

I use the definition that scratch building means drawing your own plans and making most of the parts. But, you know, if you show me your new "scratch built" project, and I know it was built from plans, I'll still drink a cool one with you. I'll even buy. But the guy who says he "built" his ARF, he buys his own!
Old 12-06-2005, 08:49 PM
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Default RE: What counts as scratch built?

The oldest definition of scratch built is doing everything but cutting down your own tree and dissolving celluoid to make the cement.
If someone else has done the plans then it is built from plans or built from modified plans.

I think that most people put entirely too fine a point on what scratch building is all about.

To me if you create something that has you putting the bulk of the effort into it then you built it.

This is a scratch built that I did for SMALL this year.
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Old 12-06-2005, 10:05 PM
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Default RE: What counts as scratch built?

Is that Jessy James?
Old 12-06-2005, 11:25 PM
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BWooster
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Default RE: What counts as scratch built?

I'd call it scratch built. (What is the difference between that and sending parts out to be cut?) There is no rule on these things, nor should there be.
Old 12-07-2005, 12:43 AM
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papermache
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Default RE: What counts as scratch built?

To me, scratch building is building from raw materials regardless of whether I designed it or drew the plans. If I take flour, sugar, eggs, milk, etc and mix them up and bake them, I have a SCRATCH cake - I don't have to make up my own recipe. It's still scratch because I didn't use a mix.

Technology has changed the modeling world a lot and old definitions need to be revamped from time to time. For instance, what do you call it if I design my own plane, draw the plans , and then send the plans to a kit cutter to cut the parts? Is it still scratch? Is it the same as Sed6's short kit? You tell me. Like so many things, it falls somewhere between into a new area which didn't exist before.

I say we just go ahead and BUILD. Self-designed, from plans, short kits, kits, what have you. Let's just not let the ARFS take over our hobby.

papermache
Old 12-07-2005, 07:39 AM
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B.L.E.
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Default RE: What counts as scratch built?

Even if you did draw your own plans, did you perhaps incorperate a proven airfoil shape from another plan in your design?
I consider building and designing as two different arts. A person may be able to design great airplanes yet be a so-so builder, and vice versa.
Old 12-07-2005, 10:31 AM
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carlosponti
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Default RE: What counts as scratch built?

you should have to mill your own balsa from home grown trees growing in your back yard
Old 12-07-2005, 11:47 AM
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Default RE: What counts as scratch built?

Why does a build need to be labeled?
Old 12-07-2005, 12:31 PM
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Default RE: What counts as scratch built?

First of all, this IS the "Scratch Building, Aircraft Design, 3D/CAD" forum, isn't it??
It was the last time I looked.
At my club field, "scratch building" would include building from plans.
At the Scale Masters, "scratch building" would not.
Context of a discussion is very important and, if someone asks for a definition ON THIS FORUM, they are probably looking for a fairly narrow definition. No one is suggesting we go around like nazis "correcting" people for "improper" terms at the hobby shop or flying field. If someone did that, they are completely inappropriate. The comments (which always seem to creep out on these discussions) about growing your own trees, etc. ... are equally inappropriate HERE.
On the issue of having your (custom designed) parts cut by a lasercutter, I can say that it is much more effort to set up proper files for lasercutting than to just hand cut the parts yourself. The only reason to due so is for improved accuracy and/or the ability to produce additional sets. In any case, I don't think it affects this discussion either way.
Allan
Old 12-07-2005, 12:54 PM
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sed6
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Default RE: What counts as scratch built?

Great responses all! My question was prompted because I'm thinking ahead to when I show off my completed plane at my club meeting or take it to the field, I just want to know if I should offer it up as kit or scratch built. I'm still thinking about that one...
Old 12-07-2005, 01:10 PM
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kdheath
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Default RE: What counts as scratch built?

Instead of labeling it as this or that, just say, " Plans by Joe Blow, laser parts by Doug Smith. I did the rest." Let the other guys decide what they want to call it. Unless you're entering a contest that has the BOM rule, it doesn't make a whole lot of difference.
Old 12-07-2005, 01:18 PM
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dfalcon
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Default RE: What counts as scratch built?

The comments (which always seem to creep out on these discussions) about growing your own trees, etc. ... are equally inappropriate HERE.
So if I use wood cut by hand from my own orchard of balsa trees, but I fertilize the orchard with manure from my neighbor's cows that were given growth hormones, is that still scratch building[sm=confused.gif]

(sorry, I feel the need to act like an idiot today)
Old 12-07-2005, 02:46 PM
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carlosponti
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Default RE: What counts as scratch built?

So if I use wood cut by hand from my own orchard of balsa trees, but I fertilize the orchard with manure from my neighbor's cows that were given growth hormones, is that still scratch building

(sorry, I feel the need to act like an idiot today)
no growth hormones to be allowed that is un-ethical, shame on you!




ORIGINAL: allanflowers

First of all, this IS the "Scratch Building, Aircraft Design, 3D/CAD" forum, isn't it??
It was the last time I looked.
At my club field, "scratch building" would include building from plans.
At the Scale Masters, "scratch building" would not.
Context of a discussion is very important and, if someone asks for a definition ON THIS FORUM, they are probably looking for a fairly narrow definition. No one is suggesting we go around like nazis "correcting" people for "improper" terms at the hobby shop or flying field. If someone did that, they are completely inappropriate. The comments (which always seem to creep out on these discussions) about growing your own trees, etc. ... are equally inappropriate HERE.
On the issue of having your (custom designed) parts cut by a lasercutter, I can say that it is much more effort to set up proper files for lasercutting than to just hand cut the parts yourself. The only reason to due so is for improved accuracy and/or the ability to produce additional sets. In any case, I don't think it affects this discussion either way.
Allan
i was only kidding about the trees... if it wasnt taken as such then lighten up a bit not everything has to be all that serious. that is what gives way to the nazis, as you put it, going around correcting terminology. and just saying its scratch built is not really a good term to use anyhow. if i scratch build from plans i would say i scratchbuilt this plane from blabity blab plans. or if its a short kit just say i bought a short kit to build.
Old 12-07-2005, 08:47 PM
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Gremlin Castle
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Default RE: What counts as scratch built?

It is Stuart Little, Jesse was too busy with the Vette to help.
ORIGINAL: Stickmaster

Is that Jessy James?
Old 12-08-2005, 12:05 AM
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papermache
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Default RE: What counts as scratch built?

I think BLE hit it on the head. Designing and building are seperate pursuits which can, but don't have to run together. I'm sure there are great designers who are not-so-good builders and vice versa. Isn't that the reason that Top Gun started Team Scale - because some of the best builders weren't the best flyers? It's the same thing with designing and building.

In my case, I like to build old timers, which is where a lot of the arguments fall flat. Most old-timers are available only as original plans. If I want to "scratch build" one according to several contributors to this thread, I'd have to re-draw the original plans. Why should I when I already have the plans in front of me????? Wouldn't that be kind of redundant?

I stand by my original definition: Scratch building is starting from raw materials. It doesn't matter if the plans are your own or someone else's.

papermache
Old 12-08-2005, 01:24 AM
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marwen1
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Default RE: What counts as scratch built?

Campy hit the nail on the head.

"YOU WILL GET A LOT OF DIFFERENT ANSWERS ON THIS ONE"

My very first plane I built back in the late 80's was a FORCE ONE. Laddie Mickalowski from up here in Canada, designed it. It was an article in RCM. (I think) who knows what year that was!

Being and old cabinetmaker, I didn't want to but a KIT from Balsa USA, so I, instead purchased the plans. The RCM article came along with it. WOW! What a learning curve. I think it took me almost 2 months of working in the evenings to get it to the point where I could MONOKOTE it.

About a year later, I met Bob Parkinson, who was, at the time,living and working in his HOME-WORKSHOP up in Alliston, ON. Just north of Toronto.

I was living in DETROIT, so I grabbed my family and took a weekend drive. Took my FORCE ONE with me, too and I took about a dozen size "E" rocket Motors.

We had lots of fun doing JATO assist takeoffs.

When we all said our goodbyes, I brought one of his CF105 AVRO ARROW kits home with me.

This was my very first "KIT"! Well, let tell you what -- by the time I had covered the foam wings with balsa and epoxy, putting in a ROSSI .90 along with tuned pipes, functional port & starboard strobe lites in the wingtips, and even adding a clamshell set of airbrakes onto it. Once deployed, a 48" cross parachute helped to stop it. Of course, the colours I used was red & white! LOL
I just went nuts making this thing! All-in-all, back in that timeframe, I must have had about $1800 US in this thing.

By the time I got it into the air, it was another year later. It's maiden flight turned in a blinding speed of almost 120 mph

Hah! Back then,, greased lightling!! Today, a joke!

What I'm getting at is this, Yep! It had a plastic canopy. Yep! It had foam wings cut & tapered to specs. Lots of cut balsa wood. Other than that, as far as I'm concered, it was a kit, but what a job getting it done!

On the entire flip side of things today, shucks, with a 36" printer, I print all my own plans today as well.

Ultimately, there is so much give and take it's unreal!

Good luck to all of us and don't gorget --- this is a HOBBY guys & gals!

E - N - J - O - Y

marwen
Old 12-12-2005, 02:25 PM
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ZoomZoom-RCU
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Default RE: What counts as scratch built?

[8D]Maybe another classification needs to be created, for instance perhaps "Plans Built" as opposed to scratch built. Scratch built meaning you did it all: drew up plans/considered materials/ built the thing etc.. Whereas plans built would be built from pre-existing plans. Seems logical, otherwise how do you distinguish between the two?

ZZ>
Old 12-12-2005, 04:12 PM
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iron eagel
 
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Default RE: What counts as scratch built?

Well a scratch build in my book is if there are no precut parts or a kit involved. In other words built from plans. Now if you engineer the entire concept and builds it that make you a builder/designer of an original aircraft. Scratch builds starts with sticks which are assembled into an aircraft.
A designer draws his own plans....
Old 12-12-2005, 05:08 PM
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papermache
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Default RE: What counts as scratch built?

This year's overall winner at Top Gun was Greg Hahn and his B-25. Are you going to tell me that his plane doesn't count as scratch built because he used (enlarged) Nick Ziroli's plans?

Building is building and designing is designing. The original question for this thread is "What counts as scratch built?" It doesn't even MENTION design.

I'll never claim to have designed a plane I scratch build from somebody else's plans, but I will say I scratch BUILT it because I did.

papermache
Old 12-12-2005, 06:20 PM
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Jigley3
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Default RE: What counts as scratch built?

Hi all…..
Scratch building?...... When I build anything! ....I tend to scratch my head a lot trying to figure the best approach to the task at hand. Does that qualify as “Scratch” building?........ bert
Old 12-12-2005, 09:25 PM
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iron eagel
 
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Default RE: What counts as scratch built?

I agree with papermache, if your build is not from a kit, it is a scratch build.

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