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Anyone ever flown something with a tail skid or non-steerable tail wheel?

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Anyone ever flown something with a tail skid or non-steerable tail wheel?

Old 01-04-2006, 10:34 AM
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strawtarget
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Default Anyone ever flown something with a tail skid or non-steerable tail wheel?

I've flown a couple tailwheel planes, and I appreciate the ability to taxi the thing back to the ramp after landing. But now I'm working on a scale project, and the tailwheel must be retractable. This is an immutable requirement. I can think of a number of ways to do it, but it would be slightly complicated and would surely add a little bit of weight right where I don't want any.

Much easier would be to make a tail skid, or a non-steerable tailwheel. I'd have to walk out onto the runway to retrieve the plane after landing, and that seems like a fair trade for the reward of simplicity and light weight.

The plane will be flown from a paved surface.

I imagine that a fixed tailwheel will provide greater directional stability, but less authority for steering the plane with rudder when the tail is on the ground. In other words, the wheel will try to make the plane go straight, even if "straight" means "straight into the weeds". Conversely, I'd guess that a metal tail skid would not provide very much directional stability at all. This might allow the rudder to be more effective, but it might also mean I ground loop the thing every time. Perhaps some kind of softer / disposable skid material (balsa? pencil eraser?) might provide a bit more "drag" on the pavement, for a happy medium between a wheel and a metal skid?

What say you? What's my best bet here?
Old 01-04-2006, 11:19 AM
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XTOL
 
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Default RE: Anyone ever flown something with a tail skid or non-steerable tail wheel?

Ive flown a Balsa USA Stick 40 with a tail skid. Its ground handling is
really terrible. I usually have to take it out to the runway and point
it in the proper direction. Once it gets rolling and the tail comes up
its fine.

Mike Hammer
Old 01-04-2006, 12:15 PM
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Jigley3
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Default RE: Anyone ever flown something with a tail skid or non-steerable tail wheel?

Hi…. Done that…. Wish I hadn’t…..

Be prepared to carry your plane. Mine was a non steering caster wheel and it was awful in particular if there was a bit of wind.. Make it steer what ever the cost ..... bert
Old 01-04-2006, 01:29 PM
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Default RE: Anyone ever flown something with a tail skid or non-steerable tail wheel?

I've had several planes with tail skids and except in high winds or a cross wind, there isn't any problem. Some of mine have had steerable skids and some were fixed. You have to blip the throttle to get some air across the rudder to turn. Obviously, you can't set the throttle at 2 clicks above idle and slowly taxi in.

Here's a Morane-Saulnier Type N with a fixed skid and a Little Stick with a steerable skid.
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Old 01-04-2006, 05:19 PM
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Rodney
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Default RE: Anyone ever flown something with a tail skid or non-steerable tail wheel?

If you are flying off grass, a skid works as well as a tail wheel. I have most of my taildraggers with just skids and have no problem in taxing. You may have to learn to use the elevator a little more precisely, use just enough down elevator to let the tail lift and swing aroung as you blip the throttle, really quite easy to do.
Old 01-04-2006, 05:39 PM
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Walt Thyng
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Default RE: Anyone ever flown something with a tail skid or non-steerable tail wheel?

I'm curently flying a Sopwith Camel, a Dr.1, a Sopwith Tripe and a Modeltech Magic all with non-steerable tailskids. Like Rodney says, under msot conditions there's no problem, but you do have to learn to use the throttle and down elevator. Takes practise, that's all. By the way, I fly off both grass and paved runways.
Walt
Old 01-07-2006, 08:54 PM
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feihu-RCU
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Default RE: Anyone ever flown something with a tail skid or non-steerable tail wheel?

Straw....:
Altho you might have the same tailskid or non-steerable tailwheel configuration, different airplanes react differently to directional control. Parameters that affect this condition are things such as wing loading, the angle that the plane is when setting on the ground, built in wing incidence, main gear placement and alignment, to name a few.
What is the scale airplane you plan to model?
Takeoff from a smooth surface with a tailskid would be almost impossible in most cases, but it has been done with proper rudder, elevator, and throttle coordination, with a very lightly wing loaded airplane.
Did you know that many full size airplanes LOCK the tailwheel straight ahead for takeoff?
You can make some turning with the non-steerable tailwheel by use of rudder, down elevator, and throttle blasting the tail around - but it's a technique you have to learn.
Even with a steerable tailwheel, takeoff can be difficult at best without the proper controls technique.
It's a completely different story if you're taking off from grass.
Hope this info can help you decide.
feihu
Old 01-07-2006, 10:22 PM
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Default RE: Anyone ever flown something with a tail skid or non-steerable tail wheel?

I fly my little Fokker E.Vs with a non-steering tailwheel. It is not castored but fixed straight ahead. It is fine on payment. I just place the aircraft into the wind and use ailerons to keep the plane level. If I try to use rudder, forget it; the plane will be uncontrollable. It is important to let the plane build up speed a little slowly. It will usually veer off the path a little but, as long as I stay on the ailerons, I can take it off fine.
Landing is much harder, especially if there is some cross wind. I have to grease it in on the mains, let it settle onto the tailwheel and try to nail the tail to the ground with elevator. About half the time, it will go on its nose or on a wing, but not too badly.
The Fokker E.V is accurate in outline and proportion and as difficult to take off and land as any design there is.
I am starting a VK Camel and will probably work in a gyro on rudder, but that is a much larger model.
Allan
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Old 01-07-2006, 11:47 PM
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Walt Thyng
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Default RE: Anyone ever flown something with a tail skid or non-steerable tail wheel?

Allan,
I have over 25 flights on my VK Camel. It i a real baby to fly. You really don't need a gyro for take off. This is a great flying airplane as long as you take the time to get all the alignments right. I hate it when reviewers say " It flies like a trainer", but, in fact, that is how my Camel flies assuming you are an internediate to experienced flier.

The big trick on the Camel is to move the landing gear ahead about one inch from scale. On landing add some power once you're on the ground to keep from doing a (scale) nose-over(-:
Walt
Old 01-08-2006, 11:30 AM
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strawtarget
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Default RE: Anyone ever flown something with a tail skid or non-steerable tail wheel?

Thanks for the input, everybody.

It's a 1/10 scale Hughes H-1(B) Racer. 38.4" wingspan. The main wheels will be 1.75" which is why I fear flying off of the rough grass available to me.

The plane is going to have a bit of a high wing loading... partly because that's the way I want it (so that it is less affected by the ever-present gusty wind) and partly because I'm a n00b and am probably over-building it a little bit. And, of course, because this is a tiny plane and tiny planes aren't supposed to have retracts. But this one's just gotta... the plane's sole purpose is the "high speed fly-by" and I don't want any gear visible.

If I want to do a steerable tailwheel, it will have to be connected to the rudder by some kind of spring system so that when the wheel is retracted, it can fit into the tailcone in a fixed position but still allow the rudder to move. This is certainly possible, but for a model of this size, I think it would add too much weight and complexity. At least until I become more skilled with this stuff through experience.

A retractable non-steerable tailwheel would be pretty easy. The wheel could be completely hidden in the tailcone, and come out about halfway when extended.

A retractable skid is the lightest and easiest option, but your replies to this thread are pretty mixed as far as how difficult it will be to takeoff and land this thing. Maybe I should think harder about the non-steerable tailwheel as a "happy medium" option.
Old 01-08-2006, 12:13 PM
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Default RE: Anyone ever flown something with a tail skid or non-steerable tail wheel?

Sounds pretty complex for such a small plane, IMO.
Is "no landing gear": handlaunching and bellylanding an option that you would consider?
Old 01-08-2006, 01:50 PM
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strawtarget
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Default RE: Anyone ever flown something with a tail skid or non-steerable tail wheel?

Yes, I've thought about doing that, but I'm not sure where I'd land it. If I landed it on the hard/dry grass, I'd get holes in the bottom of the wing even if it was fully sheeted. I guess I could put some plastic skids on the bottom of the fuse and wingtips and land it on pavement and let it slide to a stop. I may very well go that route, but I like the *idea* of retracts so much that I think I'm going to go ahead with it, even if it's folly. If it goes really badly, I'll just yank 'em out.
Old 01-08-2006, 03:14 PM
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Default RE: Anyone ever flown something with a tail skid or non-steerable tail wheel?

I've flown this without a tailwheel. Just a simple wire skid.

http://www.raidentech.com/3dgi20240nig.html

What a joke.[:@] I was blipping the throttle all the time to make it steer with the rudder. Then you find yourself screaming around the runway at too high speeds for taxiing. It was DANGEROUS and I only did it for 2 flights.

I just cut a hole in the covering near the tail. Went in right through a lightening hole in the ply fuse. Put in a hardwood block and installed a steerable tailwheel.

You can put in a steerable tailwheel and run it off it's own mini servo. Just hook a linkage up to a Hitec HS-81 and run it right down to the tialwheel. Use a Y-harness and hook it to yuor rudder servo. You'll get positive control on the tailwheel, without the complexity of trying to make your existing rudder servo work the tailwheel as well as the rudder. If you have the TX and RX to do it--plug the tailwheel servo into it's own port and use a mix to program the tailwheel servo as the slave behind the rudder servo. Adjust the end points individually for each servo. Makes it a lot smoother. Thats because you can turn down the throw on the tailwheel servo and it won't act all squirrley on the runway--but you can still have max throw on the rudder servo.

It will cost ya a little weight--but whats a Hitec HS-81 and a tailwheel assembly weigh? 2 or 3 ounces at the very most. I'd rather land hot and be able to steer it than float it in and stick it in the weeds everytime--or maybe smack another pilot in the shins because ya can't steer it. Props and shin bones don't mix too well.
Old 01-08-2006, 08:41 PM
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Default RE: Anyone ever flown something with a tail skid or non-steerable tail wheel?


ORIGINAL: strawtarget

It's a 1/10 scale Hughes H-1(B) Racer. 38.4" wingspan. The main wheels will be 1.75" which is why I fear flying off of the rough grass available to me.
................
And, of course, because this is a tiny plane and tiny planes aren't supposed to have retracts. But this one's just gotta... the plane's sole purpose is the "high speed fly-by" and I don't want any gear visible.
...............
A retractable non-steerable tailwheel would be pretty easy. The wheel could be completely hidden in the tailcone, and come out about halfway when extended.
................
A retractable skid is the lightest and easiest option, but your replies to this thread are pretty mixed as far as how difficult it will be to takeoff and land this thing. Maybe I should think harder about the non-steerable tailwheel as a "happy medium" option.
straw....:
The recipie for high speed is high power and light weight.
I believe it is doable in a Hughes H-1B, but with some considerations.
Don't waste your time on a retractable skid - a fixed wire skid won't even be seen in a fly-by, but you will have trouble with TO and landings.
My comments for your consideration - take it or leave it - no offense either way.
Go for the highest power and build as light as possible yet strong where necessary-reconsider where you might overbuild.
Go for the non-steerable sponge?(or equivalent) tailwheel and connect to your main gear retracts.
Cheat a little on the landing gear lengths, they won' be seen when retracted anyway. Make them as short as possible and still have ground clearance.
Make the tailwheel length as high as possible un-retracted to reduce the nose high angle that the H-1B has when setting on the ground (to minimize the P-factor).
Get some flying experience with flying a tail-dragger from a paved surface to learn how to use especially the rudder, elevator, and throttle coordination.
Good luck with your project.
feihu







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