Laser cutting
12-02-2002, 03:02 PM
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Laser cutting
I have found during my brief stint at scratch building, that I am horrible at cutting strait. I have built quite a few kits and seem to be good at building strait, just not cutting strait 
.
I have quite a few plans that I would love to scratch build, including a 108" wingspan Catalina, along with re-kitting some other planes that I have had in previous years.
If any one knows of someone who can cut the wood (preferably laser but other is OK) that I can send the wood and plans too, that would be great.
Thanks.
.I have quite a few plans that I would love to scratch build, including a 108" wingspan Catalina, along with re-kitting some other planes that I have had in previous years.
If any one knows of someone who can cut the wood (preferably laser but other is OK) that I can send the wood and plans too, that would be great.
Thanks.
12-02-2002, 03:39 PM
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Laser cutting
Laser cutting can be quite expensive because of the scanning, converting to CAD and setup costs if they are only applied to one job. If these initial costs can be spread across a production run of several kits, then the unit costs are quite reasonable. If the plans aren't in CAD file form there is the added problem that a scan of drawn plans might not have consistent dimensions so the parts might not fit very well. Correcting this sort of problem can also be expensive on a one-time basis.
I have ordered several sets of wing ribs over the years from Laser Arts. The quality and consistency of their wood selection has always been superb and the accuracy of cut with a minimum of charring has been a delight. See:
http://members.aol.com/laserartco/
I have ordered several sets of wing ribs over the years from Laser Arts. The quality and consistency of their wood selection has always been superb and the accuracy of cut with a minimum of charring has been a delight. See:
http://members.aol.com/laserartco/
12-02-2002, 05:23 PM
#3
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Laser cutting
CANARD:
Contact Bob Holman. It is not as expensive as you think. He has done a bit over 40 thousand parts now. He does them for the manufacturers, and his own stock. Your project would be fill-in, if you are not in a hurry. He has a laser capable of cutting 24" by 48" plywood sheets in one set up. Only a couple other parts suppliers use such.
OLLIE :
That scanning to parts business went out with high button shoes. Scannnig will distort the part shown on a plan. It also is not a 1"=1" finished product. If there is an error in the way the original draftsman drew up the part, the error will reflect directly to the part. Thus the line formed by a spar slots on scanned parts and compared to digitized parts will often be wavy. A good set of computer files will be practically a re-draw of the entire airplane, so as to figure out where drafting errors exist. Not just copying what is presented.
Wm.
Contact Bob Holman. It is not as expensive as you think. He has done a bit over 40 thousand parts now. He does them for the manufacturers, and his own stock. Your project would be fill-in, if you are not in a hurry. He has a laser capable of cutting 24" by 48" plywood sheets in one set up. Only a couple other parts suppliers use such.
OLLIE :
That scanning to parts business went out with high button shoes. Scannnig will distort the part shown on a plan. It also is not a 1"=1" finished product. If there is an error in the way the original draftsman drew up the part, the error will reflect directly to the part. Thus the line formed by a spar slots on scanned parts and compared to digitized parts will often be wavy. A good set of computer files will be practically a re-draw of the entire airplane, so as to figure out where drafting errors exist. Not just copying what is presented.
Wm.
12-02-2002, 06:15 PM
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Wm,
I think we are trying to make similar points. I would scan and convert to an inaccurate CAD file and then correct the CAD file to remove the inaccuracies. You would just start from scratch creating an original CAD file. Either way it is a lot of expensive CAD work. I'm not advocating any particular way to end up with the necessary, accurate CAD file. Your way may be best.
I think we are trying to make similar points. I would scan and convert to an inaccurate CAD file and then correct the CAD file to remove the inaccuracies. You would just start from scratch creating an original CAD file. Either way it is a lot of expensive CAD work. I'm not advocating any particular way to end up with the necessary, accurate CAD file. Your way may be best.
12-02-2002, 11:12 PM
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Laser cutting
CoosBayLumber;
How would I contact Bob Holman? Do you have a phone number, e-mail or other?
Most my plans I'm not in a hurry with, such as the Catalina. I know I need to be patient and work slowly with these scale giant planes.
Thanks for your responses. I have heard of the problems with converting to CAD.
How would I contact Bob Holman? Do you have a phone number, e-mail or other?
Most my plans I'm not in a hurry with, such as the Catalina. I know I need to be patient and work slowly with these scale giant planes.
Thanks for your responses. I have heard of the problems with converting to CAD.
12-04-2002, 01:35 AM
#7
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Laser cutting
OLLIE:
There is a fellow who made a post a few days or weeks ago concerning line widths. He uses 0.030" to 0.050" on all of them. If I were to get a 100% accurate scan, and then run it through some R-2-V software, this would automatically give me that line width of a varience. When thinking of a spar slot in a rib, I would think this to be too much slop. The, if the blueprinted drawing were off as to drafting, this compounds the matter.
NOW, however, I do use the R-2-V software here, but not for parts. I use it for details. Last week, there was some fancy lettering in the logo for the plan. I scanned and copied it rather quickly. If I was off a few thou this way or that, no one would be the wiser, and the logo would still look OK. I used it extensively about three years ago to replicate the oil company logos on the Jimmie Allen A/C, and whenever I come up against a need for a sideview of a model A/C glow engine out of the past. There is a benefit for R-2-V software, but not in making up accurate model A/C parts.
Wm.
There is a fellow who made a post a few days or weeks ago concerning line widths. He uses 0.030" to 0.050" on all of them. If I were to get a 100% accurate scan, and then run it through some R-2-V software, this would automatically give me that line width of a varience. When thinking of a spar slot in a rib, I would think this to be too much slop. The, if the blueprinted drawing were off as to drafting, this compounds the matter.
NOW, however, I do use the R-2-V software here, but not for parts. I use it for details. Last week, there was some fancy lettering in the logo for the plan. I scanned and copied it rather quickly. If I was off a few thou this way or that, no one would be the wiser, and the logo would still look OK. I used it extensively about three years ago to replicate the oil company logos on the Jimmie Allen A/C, and whenever I come up against a need for a sideview of a model A/C glow engine out of the past. There is a benefit for R-2-V software, but not in making up accurate model A/C parts.
Wm.
12-13-2002, 12:14 AM
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Laser cutting
I dabble in laser cutting - I have a 117 watt ULS 2X600. I cut stuff for the guys in our local club and a couple of UKE kit mfg. It costs about $1.50 a minute to run the laser. The cutting speed is about 25" a sec. I just cut a full set of ribs for a B-24 I designed with a 134" wing in 11min. 30 sec. That included the 1/8" ply ribs as well as the 1/8" and 3/32" balsa. Thats 29 ribs per wing The cutting bed is 18" x 32". The laser likes Corel Draw files but DXF, CMG etc can be imported and converted.
Thanks
WJF
Thanks
WJF
12-17-2002, 06:18 PM
#10
Laser Cutting
Jesse at http://www.lazer-works.com is the most reasonable I found. the setup costs is just $12 a sheet for scanning the plans plus return shipping. that covers the scanning and vectoring for the laser and setup costs. then the average cost of his short kits is between $125 and $150 really inexpensive especially if you need a 1 off kit.
Joe
Joe
12-18-2002, 01:46 AM
#12
rates
true but the rate had been 5 bucks a sheet but the company just raised it and also how many companies send your plans back with the kit on cd so you always can print them out without worrying abt being destroyed. now if a person already has them scanned then of course there is no setup charge. so basically its close to what you had done but how many places out there do it that cheap you'll never get it near that cheap from american or precision let a lone a copy of your plans on cd. its just one source is all. Also were those kits 100" ws or more or were they fun fly size? I am talking Vailley and Ziroli kits smaller kits of course cost less.
Joe
Joe
12-18-2002, 06:01 AM
#13
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My rates
Perfesser...
The size of the A/C should make no matter in the costing out for laser cutting services. It is the quantity of sheets, how involved the parts, the quality of the wood, the thickness and the time involved which really sets the rates. Most firms cannot make an accurate estimate based upon plans until they convert to effort and add in the cost of materials. Perhaps you are paying for some services that have little to do with putting a kit or two into your hands. If you already have plans, why do you need the firm to back ship them across the country and then be charged for this? When I ship out plans, they are copies, and do not expect them back. All I want is cut wood coming back. The noted firm did not return a CD, as the information was simple enough and less costly to be sent via internet. They use L.M.I. machines which use a much smaller file size than you may be familiar with.
As mentioned, the foreman told me it took one set up under the laser table for the whole job. Their routine is to line up all the sheets edge to edge throughout the table, suck em' down then cut until they are all done. A bit on the extreme, but a one-off job of twelve kits were cut consuming 214 sheets of 36 inch long wood, 2100 laser cut parts total and the whole job according to employee time card ran about 44 minutes from set-up through cutting, but not including billing or packaging. This job rate was less than $1 per sheet, and the firm still made a profit off of me. I am not indicating that a smaller kit will cost the same on a Per-Sheet basis, but if you are paying about $5 per sheet with only three or four ribs on it, you are getting stabbed in my opinion, and could easily do better with some shopping around. This firm does happen to make numerous kits for other firms advertising laser cut kits, and thus packages things appropriately. There are numerous firms listed in the Los Angeles yellow pages doing simple laser cutting but their rates come out in the $2 to $3.50 range per sheet which doubles the cost for me. I am sure you could find a similar in your area also.
Yes, a large A/C has more lumber in it, but the cutting costs should be lower as there are fewer parts per sheet, fewer lines, and thus a smaller amount of "light on" time for each sheet. Smaller A/C do not cost less on a per sheet basis. It is quite the opposite. If you have a series of 12" chord ribs, only a couple will fit per sheet of 36" wood, and thus light time is less, but the materials cost is higher. A high part count sheet takes a lot longer to cut than three ribs on one sheet. The light and movement time is considerably more for a small complicated A/C kit than a large one, and thus is generally more expensive to make on a per sheet basis (but not to market). There is currently a firm advertising for services on a per sheet, and "light time" basis, which is probably the best and most accurate quote system. However, a large kit costs more to ship than a small one, as there is so much more lumber, but the difficulty is no different for man nor laser.
Wm
The size of the A/C should make no matter in the costing out for laser cutting services. It is the quantity of sheets, how involved the parts, the quality of the wood, the thickness and the time involved which really sets the rates. Most firms cannot make an accurate estimate based upon plans until they convert to effort and add in the cost of materials. Perhaps you are paying for some services that have little to do with putting a kit or two into your hands. If you already have plans, why do you need the firm to back ship them across the country and then be charged for this? When I ship out plans, they are copies, and do not expect them back. All I want is cut wood coming back. The noted firm did not return a CD, as the information was simple enough and less costly to be sent via internet. They use L.M.I. machines which use a much smaller file size than you may be familiar with.
As mentioned, the foreman told me it took one set up under the laser table for the whole job. Their routine is to line up all the sheets edge to edge throughout the table, suck em' down then cut until they are all done. A bit on the extreme, but a one-off job of twelve kits were cut consuming 214 sheets of 36 inch long wood, 2100 laser cut parts total and the whole job according to employee time card ran about 44 minutes from set-up through cutting, but not including billing or packaging. This job rate was less than $1 per sheet, and the firm still made a profit off of me. I am not indicating that a smaller kit will cost the same on a Per-Sheet basis, but if you are paying about $5 per sheet with only three or four ribs on it, you are getting stabbed in my opinion, and could easily do better with some shopping around. This firm does happen to make numerous kits for other firms advertising laser cut kits, and thus packages things appropriately. There are numerous firms listed in the Los Angeles yellow pages doing simple laser cutting but their rates come out in the $2 to $3.50 range per sheet which doubles the cost for me. I am sure you could find a similar in your area also.
Yes, a large A/C has more lumber in it, but the cutting costs should be lower as there are fewer parts per sheet, fewer lines, and thus a smaller amount of "light on" time for each sheet. Smaller A/C do not cost less on a per sheet basis. It is quite the opposite. If you have a series of 12" chord ribs, only a couple will fit per sheet of 36" wood, and thus light time is less, but the materials cost is higher. A high part count sheet takes a lot longer to cut than three ribs on one sheet. The light and movement time is considerably more for a small complicated A/C kit than a large one, and thus is generally more expensive to make on a per sheet basis (but not to market). There is currently a firm advertising for services on a per sheet, and "light time" basis, which is probably the best and most accurate quote system. However, a large kit costs more to ship than a small one, as there is so much more lumber, but the difficulty is no different for man nor laser.
Wm
12-18-2002, 10:43 AM
#14
Laser Cutting
WM I do the vectoring for most of their work and can tell you there is no way you will find anyone out there that will cut say 2 ziroli kits for that price let alone 12. there is more involved than that. sure once the parts are vectored the se4tup is nothing. but on the average you have 50 bucks or so just in wood on something like his dauntless. Now to cut the dauntless it takes the laser abt 5 hours. all that laser time sucks up electricity plus you have manual; labor involved in the cutting for setup and checking each part and packaging and then shipping the product plus the shipping costs. if your company is that much cheaper please let us know as I would love to use them and get 3, 4, or 5 kits for the cost of what I get from Jesse. I think you need to ask your guy what he would charge you for the Ziroli Dauntless and you might be surprised. Different woods take longer or shorter time to be cut. ply really takes a while and when you have 356 5/8 dia holes cut into ply as on the dauntless that is going to take a while. I know all this as I do the vectoring for them and we even had to do custom text to put on the parts to help cut down on the laser time as a standard font takes a long time to burn. Then the fact you mentioned SIG wood you also need to take in effect that SIG is one of the most expensivewood suppliers out there and there is no way you could get 2 planes worth of wood and cutting for 125 from anyone or they would be losing money. A small plane like the Cloud dancer 120 everyone charges like 50 bucks to laser cut the kit which is abt 20 bucks in wood and 3 bucks for overhead and shipping they barely break even on the kit. theres no way they could sell 12 of them kits for same price as 1 giant scale kit they would be broke.
So basically if you have a guy that can give us all several kits for the price of 1 of most other cutters let us know who they are as we all would love to be able to afford several kits for the price of 1. I been spending the last year helping this company even though via LD and learned a lot obout their setup cut times and overall costs and i even get several of my kits from them at no cost since i just helping out a friend so I know what it costs and the only way i will believe those costs is by calling with a kit i want cut and telling them i want multi kits cut for less than 150 and see how long it takes them to start laughing.
Joe
PS not meaning to demean you WM i just know the facts of what it takes to cut and how much the wood costs and the time it takes the laser to cut a kit and know there is no way it can be done much cheaper. and as far as the plans I do the scanning for them as I have a company here that can do 36" wide by up to 40 ft long and thats what they charge to scan and we then count that on the vectoring end as since I been off work for the accident i had this yr i vector for him for the ocasional kit thus we dont pass that onto the customer. and 90% of the customers main concern is that they are getting their original plans back. obviously once we have the plans scanned we dont need to scan them to cut each kit.
So basically if you have a guy that can give us all several kits for the price of 1 of most other cutters let us know who they are as we all would love to be able to afford several kits for the price of 1. I been spending the last year helping this company even though via LD and learned a lot obout their setup cut times and overall costs and i even get several of my kits from them at no cost since i just helping out a friend so I know what it costs and the only way i will believe those costs is by calling with a kit i want cut and telling them i want multi kits cut for less than 150 and see how long it takes them to start laughing.
Joe
PS not meaning to demean you WM i just know the facts of what it takes to cut and how much the wood costs and the time it takes the laser to cut a kit and know there is no way it can be done much cheaper. and as far as the plans I do the scanning for them as I have a company here that can do 36" wide by up to 40 ft long and thats what they charge to scan and we then count that on the vectoring end as since I been off work for the accident i had this yr i vector for him for the ocasional kit thus we dont pass that onto the customer. and 90% of the customers main concern is that they are getting their original plans back. obviously once we have the plans scanned we dont need to scan them to cut each kit.
12-19-2002, 04:12 AM
#15
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Question asked again.
ProfLooney:
It takes five hours to cut just one kit? Whats that average out to something like one minute per part?
You must be used to working with small time operations. I have an agreement going back almost ten years now with a Missouri company not to disclose their name, but they cut several thousand per month. They only cut wood on a wholesale basis for kit manufacturers, not the general public and don't assemble whole kits. One requirement in the effort, is that the parts on the plans have to be drawn crisp and distinctive for the "tracing process" as they say. SIG is what was stamped in blue ink onto the side of many of the sheets I received, and don't question the firm as to how they obtain their wood, nor why at the retail counter I have to pay a different rate.
There really isn't a comparison as to a large versus a medium or a small kit. If you will read back here a bit, the question asked was at your quoted rate of $5, or $6 or $12 (whatever) per sheet of standard sized wood, how many parts are normally on that standard sheet of wood? or how many sheets is standard? or how many sheets within one kit? I am interested in establishing a basis for estimation here. You keep avoiding the question.
Went back and found another invoice which was for four of a Cleveland glider (12 sheets total) , plus eight of an F4B (72 sheets total) from RCM plans ganged together on one invoice. That one cost out at $99 for their services, a bit more than the $1 per sheet noted earlier, however no time was noted. Based upon their rate of $75 per hour and some minimums, my cost per sheet have gone as high as $2 each, but seem to be averaging around $1.50 on models with 100-70 inch spans. And you need to review my paragraph noted above again, as I did not indicate the costs to be $125, nor $150 but $175 and that did include materials.
You haven't been too forthcoming with costing numbers as to what is done in those five hours noted. I gave a call to Bob Holman who is presently cutting kits for Jerry Bates and asked him about large kit cutting as he is presently cutting the Helldiver and the Hellcat. They both are taking less than two hours per kit, even with the perforated flaps.
Not to demean you either Professor, but I have invoices to back up what things cost me. And thus getting back to the original question:
For five hours of work- -how many sheets of wood does that come out to, and how many total parts?
Wm.
It takes five hours to cut just one kit? Whats that average out to something like one minute per part?
You must be used to working with small time operations. I have an agreement going back almost ten years now with a Missouri company not to disclose their name, but they cut several thousand per month. They only cut wood on a wholesale basis for kit manufacturers, not the general public and don't assemble whole kits. One requirement in the effort, is that the parts on the plans have to be drawn crisp and distinctive for the "tracing process" as they say. SIG is what was stamped in blue ink onto the side of many of the sheets I received, and don't question the firm as to how they obtain their wood, nor why at the retail counter I have to pay a different rate.
There really isn't a comparison as to a large versus a medium or a small kit. If you will read back here a bit, the question asked was at your quoted rate of $5, or $6 or $12 (whatever) per sheet of standard sized wood, how many parts are normally on that standard sheet of wood? or how many sheets is standard? or how many sheets within one kit? I am interested in establishing a basis for estimation here. You keep avoiding the question.
Went back and found another invoice which was for four of a Cleveland glider (12 sheets total) , plus eight of an F4B (72 sheets total) from RCM plans ganged together on one invoice. That one cost out at $99 for their services, a bit more than the $1 per sheet noted earlier, however no time was noted. Based upon their rate of $75 per hour and some minimums, my cost per sheet have gone as high as $2 each, but seem to be averaging around $1.50 on models with 100-70 inch spans. And you need to review my paragraph noted above again, as I did not indicate the costs to be $125, nor $150 but $175 and that did include materials.
You haven't been too forthcoming with costing numbers as to what is done in those five hours noted. I gave a call to Bob Holman who is presently cutting kits for Jerry Bates and asked him about large kit cutting as he is presently cutting the Helldiver and the Hellcat. They both are taking less than two hours per kit, even with the perforated flaps.
Not to demean you either Professor, but I have invoices to back up what things cost me. And thus getting back to the original question:
For five hours of work- -how many sheets of wood does that come out to, and how many total parts?
Wm.
12-19-2002, 04:23 AM
#16
lumber
I will look up one of my vectors and count the sheets of wood. you figure 3"x32" for balsa and 18"x32" for ply. now when you talking a plane say for instance the dauntless some times it is hard to get more than 2 wing ribs per sheet. I live 13 hrs from the laser and do the computer work for it but I know the price of wood comes in around 50 bucks alone then you have the laser time to take into consideration. he doesnt break it down to the per sheet cost he breaks it down into wood cost and laser time plus shipping. I will find my cd and post tomorrow how many sheets the Ziroli Dauntless takes. Yes he doesnt have a huge manufacturing company just 1 laser which he can take a kit order in and if he doesnt have it in stock get it cut and shipped out the same week. 1 business that gives the rates you get is fine but since you mentioned you are the only one they cut for and cant give the name out I am posting abt prices everyone can get and comparing them to other kit cutters like american and precision.
It doesnt matter you getting them prices if noone else can what matters to the average modeller is the prices they can get. call american then precision and gert their quotes for a short kit they will be around 300 or more and from laser works abt half the price for the dauntles dues to all laser time cutting all them holes etc. yes he doesnt have a huge 100,000 dollar laser like your company but that doesnt matter to the average modeller who is watching the cost they can get the kit for.
Also forgot to mention beside I set all my parts up to be labeled and EVERY dashed line shown on the plan is printed on the part so no guesswork. I know some do it but all that etching takes time too.
I will count it all up and post tomorrow.
Joe
It doesnt matter you getting them prices if noone else can what matters to the average modeller is the prices they can get. call american then precision and gert their quotes for a short kit they will be around 300 or more and from laser works abt half the price for the dauntles dues to all laser time cutting all them holes etc. yes he doesnt have a huge 100,000 dollar laser like your company but that doesnt matter to the average modeller who is watching the cost they can get the kit for.
Also forgot to mention beside I set all my parts up to be labeled and EVERY dashed line shown on the plan is printed on the part so no guesswork. I know some do it but all that etching takes time too.
I will count it all up and post tomorrow.
Joe
12-21-2002, 10:51 PM
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Hey there COOSBAY,
I wanted to say that I have read back and Professor Looney didnt say that it was "12 dollars per sheet of WOOD used"... he said "12 per sheet of the plans " for scanning and drawing... as in SHEETS OF PAPER for the plans....NOT sheets of wood. he wasnt talking about a per wood sheet cost. Just thought I would clear that up.
As far as this company you speak of: I too, agree that why would a ' non retail " ... non over the counter customer oriented.... style outfit even be brought up for the comparisions of someone asking for rates or ways to have a plan cut. They dont cut for the public! Ok.. well I am sure the government has some lasers that can shoot down missiles and probably cut a Ziroli kit in 30 seconds! BUT , they wont cut them for a personal customer, so why talk about it? Your discussion makes no sense at all. Its a good thing you arent mentioning their name, since none of us can use them since we arent talking about manufacturers looking for a deal, BUT normal folks. right?
Jesse
I wanted to say that I have read back and Professor Looney didnt say that it was "12 dollars per sheet of WOOD used"... he said "12 per sheet of the plans " for scanning and drawing... as in SHEETS OF PAPER for the plans....NOT sheets of wood. he wasnt talking about a per wood sheet cost. Just thought I would clear that up.
As far as this company you speak of: I too, agree that why would a ' non retail " ... non over the counter customer oriented.... style outfit even be brought up for the comparisions of someone asking for rates or ways to have a plan cut. They dont cut for the public! Ok.. well I am sure the government has some lasers that can shoot down missiles and probably cut a Ziroli kit in 30 seconds! BUT , they wont cut them for a personal customer, so why talk about it? Your discussion makes no sense at all. Its a good thing you arent mentioning their name, since none of us can use them since we arent talking about manufacturers looking for a deal, BUT normal folks. right?
Jesse
12-21-2002, 11:28 PM
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Please define " kit ". thanks
Coosbay,
I think that we all may have become confused as to what a " kit " is... for this pricing that Prof gave. Ok, he is talking about a 1/5 scale or larger warbird. These have lots of plywood and balsa. Of course , you could probably have 12 small gliders or such cut for 175 you say? Well, wish you would tell us exaclty what ' kits" you are talking about in this statement you gave:
PERFESSER.....
That rate is a bit stiff today. Had twelve kits cut from 3" by 36" balsa and plywood for about $25 more than you quote for one by an outfit on St. Louis. That includes SIG wood and shipping.
Wm.
------------------------------------------
I can cut a Ziroli Stuka short kit for 150 . That is a 1/5th scale airplane. I am going to attache a picture of the sheets used to cut the 1/8th lite ply parts. I cant post a picture of all the balsa parts together with it, but I will ifyou want to see how many parts we are " talking about " in a kit of this size. I would be interested to see how many cuts these ' kits " you had cut contained. If you dont mind. No hard feelings by the way.
I think that we all may have become confused as to what a " kit " is... for this pricing that Prof gave. Ok, he is talking about a 1/5 scale or larger warbird. These have lots of plywood and balsa. Of course , you could probably have 12 small gliders or such cut for 175 you say? Well, wish you would tell us exaclty what ' kits" you are talking about in this statement you gave:
PERFESSER.....
That rate is a bit stiff today. Had twelve kits cut from 3" by 36" balsa and plywood for about $25 more than you quote for one by an outfit on St. Louis. That includes SIG wood and shipping.
Wm.
------------------------------------------
I can cut a Ziroli Stuka short kit for 150 . That is a 1/5th scale airplane. I am going to attache a picture of the sheets used to cut the 1/8th lite ply parts. I cant post a picture of all the balsa parts together with it, but I will ifyou want to see how many parts we are " talking about " in a kit of this size. I would be interested to see how many cuts these ' kits " you had cut contained. If you dont mind. No hard feelings by the way.
12-21-2002, 11:34 PM
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Ok here is the rest of stuka parts
Those are 32 inch long sheets , by 4 wide. ON the ply parts they were 12 by 32 or possibly 12x16 to use the rest of a 48 inch sheet up. That is what I am talking about for the price. Now, if anyone can cut and " LABEL and mark " those parts with a laser for less. Please share their name with us. THanks. I have really enjoyed this discussion and I welcome further questions.
Jesse
Jesse
12-22-2002, 09:18 PM
#22
Senior Member
My Feedback: (1)
Still dodging the original question
Jesse:
I have several customers quite often asking me as to referral to model laser cutting buinesses they read of. As such, they do not like to contact the firm directly, as quite often they are reluctant to contact and talk with the manager to see if what is considered is cost effective. I think anyone who has been in the retail business knows that a good price is not always the cost of the product. If a customer can get his project done locally for a few cents more than by a firm across the nation, he generally chooses local as he can control the quality better. Some customers do not need the high priced spread, as the project is being done on margin to begin with. Many know for instance, they will shop for the best price on wood which meets their requirements and quantity.
Ten years ago this coming March I began doing CAD based plans and parts. The laser cutting projects since then have gone from wood ribs to fit a 32 foot wingspan Stearman, to a little 8 inch span rubber powered job. Better than 6500 individual AutoCAD developed parts for 85 kits on 456 cutting sheets have been created and I presume that you have already completed a like quantity. There is no way to estimate how many real parts that work came out into being, for one of my customers being House of Balsa. It is only a quess as to how many P-51s, Nomads or Pietenpol's they have produced over the years from my parts and plans. Their upcoming Zirroli designed electric AT-6 and P-51 Mustang are due to debut at Pasadena and Toledo, so an even larger quantity of manufactured parts could be tagged onto the noted figure. During this same time span, there was also 54 computer drawn plans for customers, like the one currently up for auction on eBay, and if you go to the Jo Jusko site for free plans, you can download an example done for a deadbeat.
The original situation being, I own a significant amount of computer based items, but do not own a laser cutting machine. There are just too many competing firms locally to fiddle with for me to purchase or own one. About once or twice per year, I get contacted by a representative to a flying club who wants a reproduction of a once popular flying model and there is generally a certain quantity of complete semi-kits wamted within a certain budget. Then, they either supply the wood or specify the wood supplier to be used, as I could care less in producing a kit. I am not in the retail business, having long since let my over the counter state resale permit expire as the retail business is too much effort for the rewards.
In the process, customers ask as to who to get the project done with. For locals, I have dealt with five firms. For a known quantity of semi-kits, I have my favorite places, and I also know within reason how much it will cost if I go to a certain place, as compared to another. As mentioned, a representative contacted me wanting eight reproduction kits and a quote. In contacting the locals and then Missouri it was found that for $25 more they could obtain four more kits due to a price break. Although I have a few quotes from local and across the nation cutting firms, it is only the locals to which receipts are still retained. A local laser repair place gave me reference to places they were familiar with, but I later found the places were listed in the telephone book also. On a per sheet basis, Laser Industries Inc. of Orange is $2.65 each, Laser Tech of Industry was $2.25 each, Watkin's Furniture of Montebello was $1.75 and Golden Trophy of Colton came in at $1.55 each. It is only the latter two firms which I use for small projects anymore. If the firm wanted a high minimum, or more than $3 per sheet the conversation ended, as there were cheaper places available. Most of this was based upon a total cut of about 35 sheets, materials, tracing, conversion, but not shipping. To them it did not matter how thick or of what type the wood was.
So far I read a bunch of dodging the question. In one of the above noted semi-kits that is being made a big ballyhoo about, how much does it cost to cut/supply or produce one sheet of wood parts? or how many sheets to one kit? or how many laser cut parts does the actual kit contain? It is difficult to estimate final costs if no one can tell how many repeats of certain sheets are made nor of their materials, as the previously noted $5, $6, whatever seems a bit high in view that another firm here at RCU was quoting around half that amount. I am trying to find out if my standard service vendors are competitive on a total cost basis or not and there seems to be a great effort now to avoid a direct answer.
Wm.
I have several customers quite often asking me as to referral to model laser cutting buinesses they read of. As such, they do not like to contact the firm directly, as quite often they are reluctant to contact and talk with the manager to see if what is considered is cost effective. I think anyone who has been in the retail business knows that a good price is not always the cost of the product. If a customer can get his project done locally for a few cents more than by a firm across the nation, he generally chooses local as he can control the quality better. Some customers do not need the high priced spread, as the project is being done on margin to begin with. Many know for instance, they will shop for the best price on wood which meets their requirements and quantity.
Ten years ago this coming March I began doing CAD based plans and parts. The laser cutting projects since then have gone from wood ribs to fit a 32 foot wingspan Stearman, to a little 8 inch span rubber powered job. Better than 6500 individual AutoCAD developed parts for 85 kits on 456 cutting sheets have been created and I presume that you have already completed a like quantity. There is no way to estimate how many real parts that work came out into being, for one of my customers being House of Balsa. It is only a quess as to how many P-51s, Nomads or Pietenpol's they have produced over the years from my parts and plans. Their upcoming Zirroli designed electric AT-6 and P-51 Mustang are due to debut at Pasadena and Toledo, so an even larger quantity of manufactured parts could be tagged onto the noted figure. During this same time span, there was also 54 computer drawn plans for customers, like the one currently up for auction on eBay, and if you go to the Jo Jusko site for free plans, you can download an example done for a deadbeat.
The original situation being, I own a significant amount of computer based items, but do not own a laser cutting machine. There are just too many competing firms locally to fiddle with for me to purchase or own one. About once or twice per year, I get contacted by a representative to a flying club who wants a reproduction of a once popular flying model and there is generally a certain quantity of complete semi-kits wamted within a certain budget. Then, they either supply the wood or specify the wood supplier to be used, as I could care less in producing a kit. I am not in the retail business, having long since let my over the counter state resale permit expire as the retail business is too much effort for the rewards.
In the process, customers ask as to who to get the project done with. For locals, I have dealt with five firms. For a known quantity of semi-kits, I have my favorite places, and I also know within reason how much it will cost if I go to a certain place, as compared to another. As mentioned, a representative contacted me wanting eight reproduction kits and a quote. In contacting the locals and then Missouri it was found that for $25 more they could obtain four more kits due to a price break. Although I have a few quotes from local and across the nation cutting firms, it is only the locals to which receipts are still retained. A local laser repair place gave me reference to places they were familiar with, but I later found the places were listed in the telephone book also. On a per sheet basis, Laser Industries Inc. of Orange is $2.65 each, Laser Tech of Industry was $2.25 each, Watkin's Furniture of Montebello was $1.75 and Golden Trophy of Colton came in at $1.55 each. It is only the latter two firms which I use for small projects anymore. If the firm wanted a high minimum, or more than $3 per sheet the conversation ended, as there were cheaper places available. Most of this was based upon a total cut of about 35 sheets, materials, tracing, conversion, but not shipping. To them it did not matter how thick or of what type the wood was.
So far I read a bunch of dodging the question. In one of the above noted semi-kits that is being made a big ballyhoo about, how much does it cost to cut/supply or produce one sheet of wood parts? or how many sheets to one kit? or how many laser cut parts does the actual kit contain? It is difficult to estimate final costs if no one can tell how many repeats of certain sheets are made nor of their materials, as the previously noted $5, $6, whatever seems a bit high in view that another firm here at RCU was quoting around half that amount. I am trying to find out if my standard service vendors are competitive on a total cost basis or not and there seems to be a great effort now to avoid a direct answer.
Wm.
12-22-2002, 11:02 PM
#24
carbon fiber
Yes eddie some lasers can. You just have to ask a cutter as it depends on their setup. I dont know if laserworks can as they have a smaller laser and havent tried it but to answer your question yes a laser can cut carbon and play sandwhich
Joe
Joe