wrbirch

My Feedback: (1)

I am in the process of copying a reproducing a hand drawing into autocad. I am measuring the original parts and entering them in cad . If I enlarge these plans with minor changes in thickness and sizes. Is it legal to sell copies. I do not want to infrenge on copywrite laws. The original plans are of aa certain model companys kit with the original design persons name, but no copywrite notice on them.
Thnaks

BMatthews

I'd say it's dicey but if you are making it a new size it'll have to have some changes to the wing rib spacing and wood sizes at least so that would make it your design in my books.... but then I'm not a lawyer....

If it's only off by 5% to try to dodge the legal bullet then I think you're on very thin ice and if the company is still around and making that kit then they could easily have a case.

R. C. Day

My Feedback: (7)

Wrbirch,

I have enlarged peanut scale plans at Kinko's to get the outlines for designing a larger airframe. Kinko's required me to register and sign in (listing for release of possible copyright issues) before they would enlarge any previously printed plan.

As your copy would not have the information blocks, I don't think that anyone would know that you enlarged a previously printed plan.

"Don't ask, Don't tell" might be the operative words of advise in this case.

R. C.

CoosBayLumber

My Feedback: (1)

Done more often than you'd think of. Biggest problem is in marketing the new work based upon your efforts.

eBay is loaded with these. They sell a few then seldom again.


Wm.

ProfLooney

The legal stipulations require a 10% overall change in design. I know this from being a plant manager at a fiberglass boat factory. in that business for example almost no one designs from ground up as it would get costly they just buy a used boat from someone in the design they desire and use it as a starting point. for example if you get a glass fuse that is plain and you add rivets panel lines and a few other small details to it and use it as a plug to sell your own fuses you can do that. From my experience and talking with our lawyers they told us you just have to have a 10% overall change in design (which aint much) and not infringe on any patents. so in essence if you enlarge a design by 10% say to 110% you cover your butt. HOWEVER, boat design is different as it is not copywrited only writing and drawings are covered by copywrite not boats planes etc. that includes electronic format. I would check into it really good but from all my understanding the 10% rule should apply in designing as you will in essence be redesigning the plans not just copying and enlarging.

Joe

Cdallas2

What about common decency. Your basically ripping off someone elses ideas to make a profit for yourself. I design some of my own airplanes and if I had found out that someone just enlarged it by 10% I would surely be pretty pi**ed off!!!

ProfLooney

That is true but dont you think that people that design these things know there are others out there going to alter their plans. Designers cant make every size and ever model of a particular plane. So they expect someone else to do it. I enlarged Vaillys Hurricane to 1/3.5 scale and am altering it and putting my name on it. you wanna know the funny part? He knows abt out it and we are working together now to enlarge a few of his designs,. there are people out there that no matter what a person says will say something is not right or that something is right. what people need to do is get over it this is the real world and people do those things. If you feel it isnt right dont do it , if you feel its right do it. I have enlarged other plans and made alterations and have discussed with designers what they would think if I put my name on and sold them and was told to go for it because they dont have time to make those mods. so before this turns into a big flame war and debate lets just say that each person needs to make their own decision what to do, and to those out there that say it isnt fair get off it and call some of these designers and see what they say. they dont want people selling their designs but if a person modifies it and wants to sell it most dont care because they know people want it but they dont have time or see a big enough profit to do it themselves. I talk to a loit of designers and work with several doing cad work for them so I know first hand how most feel.

Take for example Don Smith on each of his plans he says noone can cut a kit for his design ubless written permission from him. Well news for you he has no legal recourse on anyone that cuts one of his designs because once that piece of plan leaves his door the purchaser can get a kit cut wherever he likes. He is one that would be upset but legally theres nothing he can do. so again i say its each individuals preference and unless these designers wanna enlarge or modify their plans 100 times to suit all the peoples wants out there most dont care.

Joe

Cdallas2

Joe,

I agree with what you say. What your doing is exactly what I'm trying to get across. You are asking for permission to modify and I am fine with that.

The problem lies where someone modify's a design and ends up making a mistake. The airplane is not a good flier, isn't structurally sound and has problems. Now what would happen is that the original designer is blamed because it was based on his design. Bad publicity will hamper the designer not the one modifying the plans.

I have no problem with someone modifying plans. It's when you try and make a profit off of it that bugs me.

ProfLooney

Thats what I am saying is that modifying slapping your own name on and selling is no big deal. besides that usually the designers name isnt on them when people do it thus their name wont get messed up. Also anyone buying a set of the modified plans and building it , it is their responsability to make sure their is no problems also. If you arent a very ixperienced modeller you do not need to be building and flying say a plane the size and complexity of my 1/3.5 scale hurricane as there is a lot of reengineering you need to do. I have had people email me to blow up a set of plans for them and i ask questions abt what they want what their wanting to do etc and you can tell these guys have possibly only built prob 1 Top Flight kit. Recently I had someone want me to blow up a ziroli Corsair 180% I was discussing and mentioning 150% would be best as wouldnt have to adjust notches also other factors and said would prob have to print the plans out in top and bottom half as they wouldnt fit on a 36" wide paper and he finally said he would just mess with enlarging his top flight plane. So I would rather someone that knew what they were doing enlarge something and sell it after making it safe than let someone. Sure there will be those that dont know what they are doing but in the end it is up to the builder to make sure the plans are right. so i have no problem with someone blowing up someone elses stuff and putting their name on it and like i said most designers dont.

Joe

PS I dont have permission to do it I just did it and after the fact mentioned it and was told Great but was never given permission

wrbirch

My Feedback: (1)

Thanks for the input peoples, Think I'll send the original manufacturer a note telling them what I'm doing. Then go ahead and do it if I don't get legal notice, Plus there will be substantial changes.
Bill
P.S. Plane is 1910 Avro triplane, guess the original owner of plans is the original builder A. V. Roe in 1910.

William Robison

My Feedback: (3)

Joe, Dallas, and all:

Check here:

http://www.rcuniverse.com/showthread...660#post843994

You will find my take on the legalities.

A lot of you might also recognize my name from the "Super Duellist" thread.

In that development we not only got Dave Platt's permission to alter/modify, we are paying a royalty to him for doing it.

I'm sorry, but even building the second plane from the same plan is theft of the designer's income. Enlargement, minor cosmetic changes, still the same thing.

But since there are only so many ways to build an airplane there are bound to be similarities, you have to let your conscience be your guide.

Bill..

Cdallas2

Bill:

Exactly!

Enlarging or modifying isn't my problem. It's making a profit off of someone else's work that it.

Take a forty sized model for example. You blow that up to a ninety size. If you don't do certain things differently it will not be strong enough or fly as well. If someone does this with no experience and it's a failure that's where the problem lies. Just because his name isn't on the plan doesn't mean that you don't know what it is.

Say you blow up that Ziroli 150%. The model turns out to be a dog. You've been going around telling everyone your build a blown up Ziroli. Once this plane flies everyone look upon it as a Ziroli airplane and thus people may start to feel that the original one is a dog as well.

Never underestimate the power of word of mouth.