s300gs

Hi all,

Who do you use to convert paper plans to AutoCAD?

Thanks,
John

ThunderAI-RCU

The easiest way is to get yourself a "good" raster to vector converter. I can't think of one I'd trust to do the job without lots of hand mofication. But there are many threads out there that talk about doing it this way.

Search www.hotfiles.com for a vector converter and see what you get.

heli001

My Feedback: (5)

John,

Most print shops (people that duplicate plans for engineers and architects, not Kinko's) can scan the plan for you and put it on disk. Depends on the quality of the original. I have found it easier to redraw the plans in AutoCAD rather than take the time to try and clean up a raster to vector conversion, depends on your speed with the program. If you have a good 3 view, in 8.5 x 11 format, you can scan that and import the bitmap file in and scale it, then trace over it.

Just a couple of ideas.

W. C.

CoosBayLumber

My Feedback: (1)

John:

There are a couple of us who contribute to RCU that also create new plans in Autocad from old ones on a commercial basis. This is not fast nor cheap. We make new A/C from old tested plans or designs by the kit manufacturer. The plan then is archived on a computer disk and as the kit sells an appropriate number of plans are run off. What you may have gobbed onto is the latest routine as to making plans and then adjusting them to more modern needs and equipment. The plan can be updated within the hour next year as equipment become obsolete.

The process is not as simple as making a scanned image, and it becomes a plan. I have done that, and it looks like crap once you run it though the plotter. Not sellable. There is much more manuevering to it, like graphically installing radio equipment, indicating new engines and fuel systems, altering parts, and maybe altering the whole design (such as altering the scale factor) to meet more current needs, making line thicknesses come out correctly, making the three views correspond to one another and on and on.

Copying a plan is one thing, making an accurate and pleasing to read plan is another concept.


Wm.

s300gs

Hi all,

Thanks for your input. And my apologies for not being more specific in my request. I did pick up a couple of ideas.

I’m interested in solving 2 problems:
1. Obtaining AutoCAD files for my own older plans (from paper or Mylar etc) where I own the copyright with anticipation of adapting and Updating the designs.
2. Obtaining AutoCAD files for plans/parts for designers like Zirolli etc. where I don’t own the copyright, but wish to cut a short-kit from.

I would then own the cad files and could modify them and print them as I needed.

The two methods I’m aware of are to:
1. Scan the image in (requires a large format scanner) and then running a raster to vector conversion tool, then cleaning up the CAD file
2. Generate the CAD file by re-creating the plan in CAD (a cleaner solution).

I would use the CAD files in a couple of ways:
1. Plotted for building purposes
2. Input to a CNC Router
3. Input to a CNC Laser

And yes, I’m interested in using a commercial house or CAD supplier. My AutoCAD skills are pretty good, but are paltry compared to someone like William (CoosBayLumber) who, i assume, can do the work faster and more accurately and in the long run it would be less expensive.

CoosBayLumber

My Feedback: (1)

Am familiar with most all your routines noted, as have done them, plus others. It took me about one year to create my first reproduction plan from a borrowed kit using the datum station and offset line method, much as in your cleaner method #2. Much time of which was correcting my work done the prior month, or revised building details to more modern equipment and incidently taking on yet another project before the first one was plotted out.

There is just too much to explain herein, but I got a Calcomp plotter and a large sized digitizer tablet as a package deal several years ago. The digitizer is a third unmentioned method for copying and enables you to tape the plan to the surface, and then trace all the lines direct into your CAD editor page. Much as you would move a mouse, the digitizer is more so accurate in movement in line creation. The tablets are very easy to set-up in your CAD software using the WinTab software, and once loaded you can see immediately on the computer monitor what lines you are creating. The large size tablets are rather LARGE and heavy (mine weighs 75 pounds). Numerous local engineering and architectural firms tend to have one. Due to slowness on their large size projects these are neglected often, and you can easily make arrangements at a firm to use their's after hours. Just take your plan and a blank computer disk, and you will take home the necessary linework to begin a re-draw. As I have one at home, it takes me about 5-10 minutes to turn on the computer, tape up the plan, pull up the editor, and get basic outlines into CAD format.

I have used the large sized scan process also. It is not a magic bullet and it ain't as simple as you think. It takes a photo altering program to rotate and resize the scanned image and put into proper image file type format. The plan rarely goes through the machine perpendicular, so you will need to rotate it a smidge until the lines are pretty well horizontal and scale factors are seldom 1=1. If there are ANY draw-in problems with the page, it will arc or curve the whole drawing image, thus indicating swept back wings on a Piper Cub or banana shaped fuselage on a B-29. File size on a full size plan run at 300 DPI as an image is usually about 25-40 meg in B&W .BMP format which is part of the problem. Using late model home equipment with a high speed processor and lotssa RAM, it will take about 1/2 to one hour to process that huge image into DXF or DWG format. I did a large sized plan for a fellow 2-3 years ago of some European jet from a magazine plan using this method, but soon found out one wing was drawn swept back a few degrees more than the other and span was not as specifications cited. There are advantages to this in that errors in the original drawing are found quickly. So sit back and start the coffee pot, and look through the magazines as to what speedier software you can buy next.

If you insert the image direct into CAD without conversion for tracing purposes, this size of image takes about 10 seconds to regenerate each time. Thus each time to pan or zoom, add in this little time factor per editing session. It gets annoying real fast. If you scan on a small home letter sized machine, the process will zip along considerably faster, but you do not have the whole plan in one image either.

As you may gather, there is no magic bullet. It all takes time to develop a plan sheet. And don't forget, before getting too far into the drawing process, think of the output. Investigate and plan your line colors and layering to match the plotter and CNC conversion software. As mentioned in your item #1, the thought comes in that to take your design and set up the linework such that it can work on 2-3 different model sizes or power types. I used to have this information mentioned on my web page, but the service company went bankrupt in April.



Wm.

starcad

My Feedback: (7)

Tell Me more Coose.

Ed Smith

I produce plans on a commercial basis. I am a contract designer working out of my home office. I have a complete, self contained work station with modern equipment. I can plot 36" wide x 170" long. I use Autocad 2004. Copying plans fits very nicely into the slow business periods.

My method would be a straight copy of the existing plan. As C.B.L. said it is not cheap.

If anybody is genuinely interested email me for details

Ed S

P.S. I am deeply involved in this hobby.

ProfLooney

I have done plans as you are wanting done. I have redone the Avenger for mike at skyshark enlarged it to 1/6th scale for him and have been Working with Roy Vaillencourt to put all his plans in cad and enlarge them to 1/4 scale for him and have been vectoring for Jesse at Laserlizard for his shortkits. I have all the parts etc for all the ziroli warbirds etc done but due to agreements with Jesse couldnt sell them but if you had other stuff you want done maybe we can work it out. I agree with an above statement i cant recommend either a raster vector converter where you wouldnt have to do a lot of work to make worth while. the easiest way is to get the plans scanned in then hand trace them. time table you talking as an example would be abt 5 -7 days to completely trace a set of say ziroli plans in to cad. I can usually do the parts for a kit in 2 to 3 days depending on my mood. the main reason is the hundreds of notches in the fuse formers slows things way down. I traced his dauntless plans and blew them up 150% in 5 days. so its not too bad just tedious when you do one right after another for 2 or 3 months. I use an engineering company to scan my plans and every 2 weeks they recalibrate their scanners so i have never had a bad or distorted scan from them. Small print shops you will sometimes get distorted scans as they dont usually calibrate their machines and so over time and mis abuse they get out of whack a little. Kinkos charges an arm and a leg for scanning large sheets and all they do is use a small home scanner and then join all the scans together thus you will def get distortions. one friend called for a set of ziroli plans and kinkos told him 180 bucks!!! my prof company only charges me $12 a sheet no matter the size. they accept 36" wide to 40 ft long (might be 90 cant remember if it is scanning or printing they can only goto 40 ft and the other is 90 ft) . if you need some scanning done or vectoring email me and will see what ya need and maybe we can work something out.

Joe

ProfLooney

If you get your plans scanned in at 300 dpi and saved as TIFF format it will greatly reduce you file size. I have over 300 sheets of plans and most of them are 1.5 megs or smaller the only ones that are large are those where i had them scan in at 600 dpi due to picking up faded lines better and most of those only came to 5 and 6 megs. I guess my only large files were the stupid mick reeves spit plans as they were scanned from blueprints where instead of having just the blue lines it had the light blue background and every pixel of light blue was grabbed up by the scanner making the file size larger. but now i have them traced to cad and they print out nicer and the file sizes are just a few k. also on wings, stabs, fuse formers I only do 1 side then mirror it so that it is perfectly symetrical I never trace the entire plans as shown as you well know there isnt a designer out there that can hand draw their plans so each half is a morror image of the other half. I found by doing it this way my planes build and fly much better. heck when i get my laser cut kits the only sanding I ever have to do is to shape LE etc and sand my sheeting. gotta love laser cut kits.

Joe

CoosBayLumber

My Feedback: (1)

STARCAD:


I don't know exactly what you may be after, but I have to watch whatever I type, as one of my customers has their banner advetisements here at RCU. He reads the forums and whatever I write on occasion.

However, I am a follower who prefers that RCU remain on the basis that folks that know help those that don't. A bit of morals is involved here that when you ask a question, you should get a straightforward responce. As may have already read, respondants have been turning a simple question into a sales pitch with annoying regularity. Respondants have begun adding advertisement for their products or service announcements into their paragraph instead of discussing a solution to an original remark. There is now a liberal spread throughout the forums of "Buy from Me, Buy from Me, Buy from Me".... to such extent that whenever I notice certain log-in, I bypass their paragraph as I know it contains a plug. Such remarks need to be placed into the proper manufacturers forum here at RCU. It is better to understand and aide the writer in solving their situation or directing them to a suitable information site instead of trying to outright sell them on something is my feeling here.

But more back to your inquiery. As you may have read it is evident there are several folks answering your note. Have been doing CAD drafting for about 25 years now, and do the model plans and parts using Autocad. Much of my hardware is Calcomp products as they were so prominent in this area that I got to know them and their service techs. Their products were once as common as fleas on the back of a dog, now they are like dead flys along the window sill. I just can't imagine blowing $10 per sheet, plus the driving time to run a test plot.

As to numbers, back in late 2002, I archived about 7000 DWG files which were once done for laser cutting and around 55 sheets of plans done for three kit manufacturers. Add to this about four requests for plans, and about four per month sets of parts by individuals each year. I have no idea as to the true count in all these, nor can I remember any particulars about the plans or parts for some kit other than for one done maybe a month ago. One of my customers is selling plans on eBay with some regularity at this time. Plan sheets are most generally around 36" by 48" or 36" by 64", but also can remember once a dozen rubber powered at 24" by 36" and one turbine powered at 36" by 445" long. Likewise, I have no idea as to how many hundreds of kits were sold or how many rib number 2-A were cut out. The plans seldom have my name anywhere on them, and whenever a magazine write up is done for a new product, it is the contributor who gets credit for drafting them instead of me. I personally don't like the big A/C, as they won't fit into my auto, plus now the market is swinging to smaller electric, instead of the 1/4 scale way. The big A/C may get the ink, but it is the smaller one who gets the sale. I am a contributor to the Jo Jusko free plans site and would invite any reader to download from there, or contribute theirs.

There are sloppy ways of doing all this and accurate ways of doing the same, and sometimes it takes longer to think about how to represent something than to draw it. With laser cutting, good looking parts don't mean they fit. A project should always be a slight redraw of original plans to correct linework errors, then discuss with the customer and proceed. With the use of Autocad, there are many benefits to the built-in features of XREF, and paper space drawings. If you alter something on rib number three, it coincidently alters it on the plan sheet, in the details, and the parts cutting files. Change it one place, not three, and you don't have to remember where all the repeats were located, nor do you have to place it again either. For those believers in CheapCAD or graphics software, it is a concept with is only available in better software such as by Autodesk, TurboCAD, Intellicad, etc. and until you use it a few times, there is no way in seeing how much time was wasted prior to. A plan should be pleasing to read and look at, and not just a bunch of skinny lines with monoblock text.



Wm.

Ed Smith

I do agree that this Forum is not a place for the promoting of ones products. However I offered a service for a perceived need. I have not blatantly "plugged" what I have to offer, ever on this Forum.

If I was to answer the original question openly and honestly, the answer would have been "Nobody"! Is this what s3003gs wanted to hear?

Ed S

ProfLooney

And yes, I’m interested in using a commercial house or CAD supplier. My AutoCAD skills are pretty good, but are paltry compared to someone like William (CoosBayLumber) who, i assume, can do the work faster and more accurately and in the long run it would be less expensive.

And as was stated above he was asking abt the possibility of someone doing converting to cad for him so he could then alter them for his needs. so noone was doing anything other than what he was asking. we replied how he could do it himself and also that there were people that might be interested in doing work for him thus all his questions were answered with nothing given that wasnt asked for.

Joe

w0mbat

My Feedback: (1)

Here ya go - contact these people. I have used them before to scan full sized plans and convert them to CAD format. They do and excellent job and the CAD files exactly match the printed sheets. I think they charge about 60 dollars a sheet.

http://www.cadscanconnection.com/

Mike

e-bird

Here in sacramento 2 collages have scan adapters for the big pinch roller ploters Coos Bay is big also the city drafting long time
ago a friend was doing it he said the cost was clean up after
scan but now you can freeze layers so. I haven''t saw many
modle plans very good exact anyway do all the bits and pices
your self Much faster than ver 1.8 and i did digitizer them piece
by piece. CU

heavy date-RCU

I don't know how it works as I can not get the demo to load, but there is a TIFF to DXF converter called scanvector. Just do a search in yahoo for scanvector english and it will come right up. I downloaded it, but nothing happens when I click on setup.

If someone else gets it to work, I would like to know how good it is.
Hans

ProfLooney

It sucks Hans. Just like every other raster vector converter scan vector will convert your image to vector but by creating billions of itty bitty short splines which takes forever to clean up. I have tried every affordable one on the market including the one that comes with corel with the same results. It is faster and easier to import your scan into acad, corel or any other cad program you have and trace it by hand. If you import into a cad program and zoom way in you will notice your lines are nothing but a bunch of broken dots or pixels. raster converter program sees each dot as an individual line this creates an itty bitty spline for it. with millions of dots per line you get all kinds of splines thus the conversion is useless for anything until you joine them all into 1 long spline that you can manipulate. Coos, Ed, Starcad I am sure can all agree with this that it is faster and easier to do it by hand especially if you want to use the vectors for a cnc machine, laser or other such. and all of us i am sure can do it by hand in a fraction of the time you would spend cleaning up a conversion. Also remember any flaws in the design will be converted with the rest of the plans so untilthere is a way to print plans as a nice solid line without any breakup of the lines raster vector programs are almost useless for us. they do however work pretty good if you have an inked master and it is scanned in at like 1200 dpi.

Joe

PS also it wont handle large plan sheets. some it will work whit as long as they arent too big but others like the ziroli B-25 the sheets are too big for it and cuts them off. seems it has a paper size restriction built in and i havent been able to find a setting to adjust it. Other large sheets it will resize your vectors to an itty bitty size sheet of paper and you will have to enlarge them.

ProfLooney

Hans to get scan vector to load you image it must be a 1 bit monochrome image. Just pull your scan into paint in windows and convert it to 1 bit monocrome then save it as a dif filename so you keep your original as it was. the problem with converting to 1 bit monochrome is you also degrade the quality of the plan which gives you all them nasty splines. I am real familiar with scan vector tried to get it for a long time to work and finally gave up but I do keep it around to play with occasionally seeing if i can find a way to get it to work the way we need it to.

Joe

CadFlyer

My Feedback: (16)

I am a Sturctural Designer and I use AutoCad 2000 for all my work. I have converted numerous plans into AutoCad and I am now currently scratch building a 90" Super Sportster from the original plans that were converted into Cad and munipulated as a cad .dwg file. I would be happy to talk with you about this topic if you wish.
Cadflyer

clausxpf

I have been into the same problems about vectorizing...never found anything that worked...
But really .. tif files loaded into acad.. and a little trick there make them red... and only one on each acad drawing to make scaling and rezeeng faster as you work... then just trace in the normal white colour... it works....
I do have a digitizer.. but find that logitechs cordless mouse the one that operates optical... has all the power needed for a fast job.
Ok to convert at traditional drawing for a corsai with all detail and in the same time convert to metric dimention... 45 hours of work...and then i does not matter whether you want it 1/4 scale or only 1/10
But really remember only one scanned drawing at a page.. then later take all the vectors to one drawing.... and leave the tif back
and one tip more...
Very often all the different parts on a drawing do not have the same "zero" line make sure that you have at least ,0000 degrees for correction.
Claus

ProfLooney

Me I find it is just so much faster doing it by hand. I use Corel Draw and like acad ya just import the pic add another layer so you can turn you bmp off once in a while to check on your work and go for it. The one major difference I noticed between Corel and Acad is when you import a bmp tiff or whatever and say want to enlarge it before tracing, that when you enlarge it, the lines on the plans will not grow fatter but will stay the same size. when i used acad and enlarged the file it always ended up makinge the drawing lines go fatter like when you enlarged them with a zerox machine etc. I got some of my plans totally vectored but one day hope to get them all done. I mainly been doing just the parts but have my vailley hurricane tempest and FW done along with the reeves spit, and ziroli dauntless and corsair.

Joe

Harmeet S M

I am interseted to take up the job work for convertion of scanned files to Acad drawing manually. How about sending in some details, so that we can send u an appropriate quote.

regards
Harmeet S M
+91 022 25370219
[email protected]

Mike James

A tad off topic (maybe) but...

I can't believe that these problems still exist with:

1. The incompatibility and/or inconsistency between various CAD program's output (and conversions, too!)

and

2. The "raster to vector" issue.

Can't some super genius programmer get a handle on some of these things, once and for all. Arrrrghhhh. Like many people here, I've had a need for raster-to-vector at times, and NONE of the software really does it right. We either need raster-to-vector greatly improved, or possibly an image type that carries good quality vector data with the raster data, somehow. (perhaps a "hidden layer" or something)

Ok, I've vented...

ThunderAI-RCU

Can anyone say vektor graphics or SVG. The technology is out there. The problem is that switching from something raster to vektor is not simple. I am sure there are people out there that can do it but expect it to cost money...

clausxpf

I have tried some of the stuff out there, but really it does not work..
But I have found a couple of ways to make the redrawing eazier.
when you take a raster image into ACAD the make the picture Red, and then you just draw in normal white.
One thing that I have learned is that even when you get files from the same scanning there might be small differences in messures. and one have to correct that as drawing goes on.
It works for me that way!
Claus