CrateCruncher

My Feedback: (1)

Sorry Nergall. It was just a silly gimmick - not intended as a comment on the defense contractor controversy. However, I wanted to shock Funkworks with as totally ridiculous an example as I could think of to show how powerful -and potentially malicious- this communication can be. He wasn't really reading my posts anymore and I hate reiterating points I've already covered. Again, I was joking and apologize to anyone if you were in any way offended by it. John Stewart makes it look so easy...

Nergall

LOL, no offense here CrateCruncher! Just a really off to the side comment.

I'm with you, I believe sites like that provide a necessary and positive service to the hobby. However, I would like to know more about it. I'm making no bets, but fact based arguments can change my mind! (And, I don't believe the same of some random eBay seller just making copies of current plans.)

Most of what I see on Uncle Willie's site is what video gamers refer to as abandonware. (It takes a lot less time in the video game world for good games to reach this level.) There would be no commercially legal way of obtaining these games without some grey market.

Funkworks points out the RCM situation, which does make me curious.

However, I can't honestly believe something like the "Das Ugly Stick" has not fallen into public domain. I can't think of a large kit manufacturer that doesn't make some clone of it today. Just for starters there is the Great Planes Big Stick and the Hangar 9 Ultra Stick. We all know there are copies available free online. And, then there is the RCM original version. No doubt, RCM, if anyone has the legal right to sell these, but that doesn't necessarily mean they are the only ones.

funkworks

Crate...you are reaching...

All the models I have done are my own design based on actual aircraft. For each one I have contacted the various companies (Lockheed, Boeing, etc) to make them aware of my intentions. Some have gladly sent me additional documentation and I even got an invite to bring one of my models to take photos with the actual aircraft....the mere fact that our tax dollars pay for these aircraft should at least give us the right to make models of them right? haha

I made a clear case with facts to back up my point regarding UW. He sells RCM copies of plans and RCM still claims them to be their property. I know there are other circumstances where the issue becomes more confusing (i.e. designer is deseased, company out of business, etc.). If you REALLY want more information then just head over to the RCM plans site.

http://www.rcmplans.com/index.php?ma...d5tm2mnssbbpet

Now go to Willies site and tell me there are no RCM plans on his site...

Crate...These are facts and nothing Ive made up... Look for yourself before you accuse me of making false accusations... I have nothing to gain by defending RCM and I'd do the same for you if I felt your work was being copied without your permission.

Nergall

I, for one, am curious. Funkworks, please follow the RCM link and report what you've found to them. And, then please, report back to us on their response.

I'm just trying to point out that while RCM may hold copyright to many of the things they sell, more likely most of the plans fall into the "licensee" category.

It's no use arguing it any further until we know more.

Anyway, the original start of the thread was to point out that his plans were mostly definitely not the "inferior quality" plans RCM is warning the buyer about.

CrateCruncher

My Feedback: (1)

Right Funkworks,
I've been trying to get in touch with anyone at RCM for 2 days now trying to get their side and apparently they are totally incommunicado until April 15, 2009. They don't answer phones, even their emails are being returned. Seems an unusual way to run a company.

funkworks

Sure Nergall... that's fair enough... I'll report back with whatever they say...

I know from my experience RCM allows you to make as many copies as you like for your own personal use (cut out patterns, build on, etc.) Basically, if you make money (charge) for a copy, then it is illegal. My own disclaimer is pretty much the same. I allow folks to make copies for themselves so they dont destroy their original during the building process. I also encourage them to stay in touch if they have any questions during the build.

I understand the point you make on "quality". I believe RCMs "Buyer Beware" statement was to make the public aware of unauthorized copies online and used an example where one vendor (undisclosed) sold copies of poor quality...

funkworks

Crate...their phone message says they are in the process of relocating their office. Sounds reasonable that they would shut down while they got the other location ready. It's also a holiday weekend coming up to make things more complicated for them...

Nergall

Thanks!

I've ordered from both, and both RCM and Uncle Willies were great to deal with. I hope all this turns out innocent enough, so I can go on ordering from both.

Johnkpap

Hi all

I have bought plans from Uncle Willie, and was very happy with the service.

One plan I purchased was for a Old timer calld the RED ZEPHER the plan that came with the kit I built many years ago it had no Rib Detail's !! This is a problem as I wish to repair my old plane. I was able to get a Electronic copy from him For $5.00 !!! I can now print and cut out a new set of wing ribs and make up a new wing ect. The Quality is better than the one from the kit I purchaced many years ago.

I would be happy to buy a new Kit but "Price Rite" the mob who made the kit here in Australia are Out of Business.

If all plan suppliers could convert their plans to sell them online I would buy more.

If you are concerned with a plan being sold online, "Don't Buy It !!!" as simple as that, there is no problem then, a number of sites have free plans !!! If you have a issue don't down load them.

Also how about the people who are complaining about (c) laws spend their time building a new plane and not buying a ARF from CHINA and help your LHS, Kit supliers ect this will help your local economy.

My Ausie 5c worth

Johnkpap

FlyerInOKC

My Feedback: (6)

From RCM's website:
They don't list Uncle Willie's as an authorized dealer.

WELCOME RCM PLANS NOTICE

BUYER BEWARE
We would like to warn all of our readers that there are counterfeit RCM Plans being offered for sale on the Internet. Many of you may have seen RCM Plans available on different websites either at auction or for direct purchase. We have been monitoring this situation and have found many of the RCM Plans to be unauthorized reproductions of RCM originals.

The only way that we can guarantee that you are receiving high quality RCM Plans at the best price is by purchasing them directly from RCM or one of its authorized dealers. The quality of the plans being offered by unscrupulous sellers on the Internet may be very poor and the prices for some these plans have been listed higher than what RCM charges!

For example one of our readers recently purchased a set of plans for RCM Plan #1233, RV-6F on the Internet. The proper wingspan for this plane is 52-1/2", the plans he received had a wingspan of 47". Furthermore the resolution and line quality of the plans were extremely inferior to that which we produce and sell. When this reader called us to complain, there was nothing that we could do.

We hate seeing any of our readers being taken advantage of, but we cannot control the quality and sale of any unauthorized reproductions. We have contacted the websites that we have found to be offering unauthorized RCM Plans and have been successful in shutting down several operations. However, we do not have the ability to monitor the entire Internet. Many of the instances were brought to our attention by readers. If anyone has any questions or concerns about RCM Plans that they see for sale, please contact us: RCM Plans.

It is legal to sell or trade any original plans that you have purchased from RCM. The original purchaser of RCM Plans may also; make copies, reduce or enlarge the plans for their own use, but not for distribution.


RCM COPYRIGHT & TRADEMARK POLICY
RCM's trademarks and service marks are protected under U.S. and international trademark laws. Anyone who uses RCM's marks, without our permission, on goods or for services is liable for trademark infringement.

In addition, the textual, photographic, video and other multimedia products published and produced by RCM or its licensees are protected under U.S. and international copyright laws. Anyone who, without RCM's authorization, produces, copies, distributes, displays or performs RCM's copyrighted materials is liable for copyright infringement.

Please be advised that the manufacture, distribution and/or sale of counterfeit RCM goods is illegal and carries criminal penalties.

TLH101

My Feedback: (90)

If RCM was really concerned about UW, I'm sure they would do something about it.

FlyerInOKC

My Feedback: (6)

Its obvious you have never checked the cost of bringing a lawsuit, its probably cost more to file than what they can recover from scum like Willie. So guys like you continue to support a thief by justifying it because they can't afford to prosicute. If you bother to look at the plans on his website RCM isn't the only magazine he is stealing from not to mention companies like Top Flite and the others. But go ahead support the thief, its not your property he is stealing. But don't complain when good companies that support this hobby go out of business because they can't afford to protect their intellectial property. You and Willie deserve each other!

BMatthews

Please control the tempers.

While I have not seen any direct flaming some of the posts are getting close to the mark. Just cool down and remember that we are all on the same side.



RCM magazine typically bought the design rights from the folks that did the articles for them. As such there's no licensing or any other issue. The designs as well as the plan layout belong to RCM or the new plans service. If Uncle Willy is selling direct copies or slightly edited copies to remove the RCM title block then he is technically in violation of some laws.

Lockheed and a few other companies went on a rampage a few years back and managed to strongarm numerous companies selling models of Lockheed products and forced a few to either drop the designs or at least change the name. While they may have been within their rights to do so I can't help but shake my head in dismay over their gestapo like tactics. Although perhaps it was a case of precidence. If they let the model companies produce liknesses of their design then they may not have a leg to stand on when it came to other cases that were more important. Still, they went out and blasted out on the model companies at the same time that other companies were still offering help in producing model designs by sending out information or making available online. The Lockheed stance in that light sure seems a bit silly and underhanded to me. Sort of like taking candy from a baby.

Anyhow this thread will remain open as long as we can all remember that we are friends and discuss it in a friendly manner. Any signs of flaming and it will be locked.

longdan

UW is a member of RCU

Hemikiller

My Feedback: (125)

I emailed this thread to Uncle Willie this morning, when there were maybe 15 posts. Here are his thoughts on the matter, unedited, as he wrote them.



Personally, I think you are focusing on the wrong person, Uncle Willie does excellent work restoring plans, nobody else on eBay does that. If you've never restored a plan, you have no idea the time it takes to bring them back to the condition that Willie does. Believe me, selling a plan file for $5 does not even begin to cover the time required.

Berekeley is long gone and Air Age doesn't give a hoot about plans that aren't in their current catalog. AirAge tossed much of their older, less popular plans -in the garbage- years ago. If RCM or AirAge told him to stop, from my experiences with him, I'm sure UW would.

The other sellers are strictly in the copy and sell mode, often times buying one another's plans for resale, copying off of copies. Not only are you buying poor copies, but good luck getting a plan that's not skewed or distorted. Having personally worked with some of this material, I would be ashamed to even give it away, the quality was so bad. If you're really concerned about copyright infringement, start with those that are blatantly selling the entire line of one designer's plans, such as those by Ziroli and Taylor. These are the guys you need to focus on, not UW who is truly providing a service to the hobby with his vintage plans collection.

tri-pacer

Hi all,
Has anyone ever heard of the 1980’s song titled “Video Killed the Radio Store�? We’ll the title is self explanatory, which leads me to another song title that if written, would also be self explanatory: “The Scanner Killed the Plans Business�! Yup, if you’ve ever scanned a plan from a magazine and used it to build from, you’re probably guilty of stealing. Ya, I know that’s kind of a stretch, but remember, the plan was supposed to be in the magazine to show you what it looked like, and a plan number was given in the back so you could order it, not build from it. So in essence, if you scanned it, you’ve cheated someone out of a profit from their hard work. Yes, I’m guilty as charged!
Look, I’m only using this as an example of what a lot of us do, especially with older magazines, NOT to pass judgment. The bottom line is, is that building from plans is dying a slow, but very predictable death, just as most 1/2a gas engines have. We live in a society of instant gratification, where foam and batteries are king.
I for one, don’t what to see anyone cheated, but most of the stuff Willie is selling isn’t exactly in “Red Hot� demand either. One way to look at this is that anyone who’s selling plans and keeping them “alive� is a good thing, in that it’s keeping the hobby shops who sell supplies going as well.

Just my humble perspective on this situation!

Chuck

wilde

I received a pdf plan of a "Mighty Mambo"from Uncle willies in 15 minutes after ordering and paying. A few more e-mails corrected a minor problem. This was the only place in the world i could find the plan. The "mighty Mambo" was my first multi-model,and i am eternally grateful to him for his services to model builders.

COST $5 US

Hardly not what one would expect from a person who has b een described by many as .

Think about the "Ugly Stick" of which there has been much commercial use of the design around the world . I know for a fact that the "Ugly Stick" was originally called the "SQUARE STICK" [deliberate capitals to attract the attention of the forum browsers], as i have this information in a monthly flier from Ace Radio Control from the early 1960's.

Chad Veich

My Feedback: (60)

I'm sorry, I will err on the side of caution. Willies is, by his own admission, selling plans that he has no right to sell. He justifies it by claiming all proceeds go to charity. He claims Nick Ziroli has never asked him not to sell Ziroli plans. He fails to say whether or not Mr. Ziroli ever told him that he could, only that he has not asked him specifically to stop. Has anyone asked Ziroli what his opinion is of Mr. Uncle Willies? I don't know, and have no way of knowing, if Willies intentions are honorable or not. I can tell you that I'm uncomfortable enough with what I do know that I will choose not to purchase from him. I only posted in the first place to raise awareness and spark discussion. If, after reading what has been said, you are comfortable with purchasing then, by all means, go ahead. I know that there are many folks who purchase from less than honorable vendors without ever being aware of the situation. Do your homework, make up your own mind. My .02 cents worth.

Chad Veich

FlyerInOKC

My Feedback: (6)

One word of caution just remember what happened to all those people that caught in the file sharing mess. A few "free" downloads of music ended up costing some of them thousands of dollars!

I-fly-any-and-all

My Feedback: (1)

flyinginokc is ignorance truly bliss? It is quite obvious to me that you must be one of those scumbags on enbay selling "poorly copied" plans that others have improved or designed themselves. Good riddens to you carpet baggers!

I-fly-any-and-all

My Feedback: (1)

willies makes size variations, clarifications, and simplifies plans for the modern day idiot aka arf builder.

I-fly-any-and-all

My Feedback: (1)

retracted

FlyerInOKC

My Feedback: (6)

You are all wet I don't sell plans but I do buy them. And when I buy them I get them from the copywrite owner not a self confess crook. With the internet its not hard to find the legal owner to most designs. I do from time to time draw my own thanks to the training I received high school back in the day when vocational training was included. I draw my own when i can't find an airplane I want but they are few and far between. In most cases now days its just a matter of taking the time to research an airplane to find a plan. Most scale guys take months to research every aspect of an airplane to get the details correct why not spend a few minutes and find a legal plan instead of lining the pockets of someone who has no legal right to sell the plan? I know Willie clams he donates some of the proceeds to charity, that is the same thing Frank Lucas claimed. Frank gave turkeys and other food away to the poor and made numerious donations to schools, etc. All the time while he was selling $1 million dollars of Herion a day he smuggled into the USA in the caskets of dead soldiers. The US goverment found $170 million hidden in lockboxes and overseas banks, houses on both coasts 4 multimillion dollar apartments in Manhattan. But he did feed the poor, I wonder how many had junkies who died in the family? Does that mean we should have looked the other way why his products kill thousands and ruined countless lives? Doing some right does not negate breaking the law whether it is on a small scale or a large scale. A lot of people complain about the goverment coruption, inequality, and the greed of Wall Street. But guys like you support guys like Willie because you a few bucks when to the small time designer the small amount Willie takes in from his plans is a very big deal. But you keep saving your money its the other guy who is getting fleesed not you. But don't you dare complain about the lost of your joib or the shirinking value of of your 401k its your aditute that makes it possible.

haikt

My Feedback: (11)

Man oh man this is getting out of hand lol
Why is everyone in each others buisiness..It seems like people sit at home and wait to find something to go on and on about and everyone plays the "saint" card. This is a hobbie for fun remember? So what that some guy takes a plan and sells it, maybe not good but not a big deal as everyone wants to make it to be. At the end of the day it all comes down to the facts if you want good plans, knowledge and support you go to guys like Nick who know what they are doing but if you dont care you go to UW and get what you pay for. I dont buy plans from anyone I can make my own......
UW personality on the other hand judging from his site and imature comments and context is very poor to say the list.

BMatthews

I think we've all had enough to say about this and I see that a sizable number of the more recent posts are re-hashing the earlier points and aiming them at individual users.

This topic is closed but will remain for others to view and make their own decisions.