Avaiojet

Daniel,

Relax, you're doing a good job.

As for the Wright brothers, I believe a couple of French guys were the first to acheive powered flight. The Wright brothers were followers and not mislead.

I think we've been mislead, in that, we've been believing for years, that it was the Wright's who acheived this accomplishment and not those guys in France. Kinda like the so called "canals" on Mars not to mention plenty of other things.

Have I got this wrong?

Charles

Daniel_M

Yeah heard something about the French guys being the first ones, but I think the Wright Brother's flight is the one to have been recorded and the one there is solid evidenc of.... I think...

Avaiojet

Daniel,

I think it was Al Gore who invented flight?

Charles

Daniel_M

I don't understand that :S...?

Daniel.

CafeenMan

Daniel - Let me introduce myself. I am Paul Johnson, the creator and webmaster of Airfield Models.

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and make the assumption that your purpose is to make a contribution to this hobby. However, it is obvious to me that what you are doing is attempting to paraphrase my and other peoples' work.

I have only briefly perused your file and it appears you attempted to credit your sources which is good. On the other hand, you never asked me permission to use my material as I clearly requested. If you read my [link=http://www.airfieldmodels.com/copyright.htm]copyright[/link] you would have seen a link to [link=http://www.airfieldmodels.com/mail/terms_for_article_reprints.htm]this page[/link] about reprint requests.

I don't know if pouring your heart into this project took two hours, two months or two years, but my site is the culmination of nearly forty years of personal experience. There are very few cases where I wrote something that I have not personally experienced and I included that information for completeness while clearly indicating what specific information was hearsay.

You must have also noticed when gathering information from my site that it is absolutely free to anyone who can access it. There is no payment required nor is registration required unless a person wants to post on the site.

There is a good reason for that. I have never been required to pay to learn about this hobby unless you count me purchasing various magazines over the years. But I could walk into any hobby shop or to anyone at a field and get educated for free.

At the same time I strongly disagree with BMatthews comment that I am merely paraphrasing. As I said, I am speaking from experience - not just gathering information that I personally have no clue about and then posting it. I have also never claimed my ideas to be original even though much of what I have learned I learned independently. That means there are many things I wasn't taught and I just figured out. Somebody else may have learned it one thousand years ago but I wasn't aware of it until I discovered it myself. that said, I do not consider myself to be an expert. I consider myself to be a competent designer and builder who cares strongly about the quality of what I create.

I learned almost everything through a lot of years of frustration due to lack of knowledge. I saw others having many of the same problems so when I find solutions to those problems I post them. It's not to stop people from making mistakes but to help them advance more quickly to making all new mistakes that they may have never had the opportunity to make. In other words, they will be able to build more advanced models sooner and in many cases their knowledge will exceed mine because they will be farther ahead than I was.

So my niche is in regard to theory, design and mostly building. I don't talk about flying because my piloting skills are adequate but I would not be able to speak with authority on the subject. And that's one of my issues with how you are going about this.

From what you have posted it appears that you do not have much if any first-hand experience in theory, design or building. If what you care about is making a contribution then I think you would be doing a much better service by providing links to sources you have gathered material from and let those sources speak for themselves.

I do not feel my work needs to be paraphrased and you did not even take the time to ask my permission to use my work as I requested in the link above.

My suggestion to you is that you do the work many of us have done to advance our personal knowledge and then create your own work from your own experience in whatever niche you feel you excel and can speak with authority. Because authority is what you are missing.

In the mean time, I praise you for wanting to make a contribution. Everyone in this hobby contributes something or they drop out. The contribution may be one or more excellent designs, general knowledge, flight training or simply making the journey easier for someone else.

CafeenMan

One last thing. The challenge you offered isn't much of a challenge. A lot of people with low time in this hobby have designed model aircraft that worked. They usually aren't very good designs but they fly and can be called a success - especially when you attach the caveat, "for a beginner".

So here's my challenge to you. And I'm making this challenge with the understanding that there really isn't anything new under the sun.

Create a truly original design. Take that design through multiple prototypes to get it really right.

The design should use the minimal amount of materials necessary. That's always a dead giveaway that a person has little experience. I look at construction photos and I see what you won't see after the covering is on. Materials that are misused or overused as well as weak areas due to inappropriate cut-outs and bracing going in the wrong direction or creating stress points.

By "original design" I mean something really off-beat but should fly well.

I don't know if you're familiar with the flight sim, "Crimson Skies" but I am very strongly leaning toward making that the subject of my next design and build contest. Choose a plane from that game as an inspiration for your design. Take it through the process and then we'll see where you're at.

Daniel_M

Dear Paul Johnson,

I sent you an e-mail regarding reprinting.

It would be wonderful to make a plane like that- except my aerodynamics knowledge does not go to the extent of predicting the performance of a radical design like that. How would I go about predicting the flight performance of such an airplane?

Sincerely,
Daniel.

CafeenMan

Simple. You get experience. I have nearly forty years and at this point I think I could do it fairly well. You have much more information available than I did so maybe you can do it sooner.

CafeenMan

Those planes aren't really that radical, by the way. The worst thing I see when looking at [link=http://images.google.com/images?q=crimson%20skies]these images[/link] is some of the planes may have very sensitive CGs due to short tail-moments.

And my challenge isn't to reproduce one exactly. Just use it as inspiration but modify it as you see fit to make it fly well. I don't see anything there that shouldn't fly.

CafeenMan

This is the one I'd most like to see:

http://www.activewin.com/reviews/sof..._skies_025.jpg

haikt

My Feedback: (11)

CafeenMan,
You are requesting him to ask your permission to use data from your source that you yourself did not create (I mean theory and such). You have done the same in the past when creating your work, taking ideas and information from other peoples work as I am sure there is nothing original in articles. He sited the information giving you credit for your work, by the way this is a proper way of giving credit.
Everyone keeps mentioning experience as being the main driver and pretend that nothing can be created without having experience. Some of the most interesting creations come from people who have little or no experience in the particular field because they are not bound by prior knowledge like experienced people are.
Instead of giving him credit for trying to create something and learn in the process everyone is only leaving negative comments.

CafeenMan

Clearly you don't understand how copyrights work. I created everything on the site with the exception of a handful of articles and photos by others who gave me permission to post their work on my site.

By your argument, nobody can copyright anything that includes work from persons past. For example, if somebody were to write a physics book then I could lift it verbatim because some of the work in the book is based on the work of past physicists.

There have been gangster movies made. After the first one was filmed, I am now free to take all movies since then and republish them without the consent of the copyright holder because they aren't original ideas, correct?

Your argument is extremely weak and doesn't withstand even slight scrutiny.

Basing my work on others past work isn't the same as lifting their work and paraphrasing it. I did my own work to prove the methods I publish from my viewpoint.

Can back this claim? For example, show me where anyone discussed creating a detailed design specification before I posted my article. I see people now talking about it like it's the holy grail. I didn't invent the specification as most industries use them, but until I put it on my site I never saw it mentioned as such in the entire time I've been a model builder. Now I see on this forum and others people posting detailed specifications for their own designs whereas before people posted mostly generic and incomplete goals. It took me stumbling through many half-assed designs to realize how important a specification is which is why I think it's a big deal. Personally, I think that's a pretty significant contribution by itself.

Your entire post completely misses the point. Try creating something significant one day and have somebody else lift it without your consent and see how you feel about it. Have you ever published anything? If so, would you mind providing a link so I can take the whole thing and put it on my website or wherever else I want? You don't need to know what I do with your information. You may happen across what I've done to your work someday and I'm sure you'll be fine with whatever I decided to do.

Wow! That's quite a stretch. In fact, I'm in the process of writing an article pretty much stating exactly that. So your statement here does not come even close to resembling the truth. In fact, already on my site I said I encourage people to create their own designs and I never made any stipulation about how much prior experience they have. To the contrary I said that even if the design is a failure it will be good experience and the chances of the design being a total failure are slim - even for a beginner.

I encouraged Daniel to create an original design. I don't consider compiling other people's work and publishing it without even understanding it an act of creation any more than I consider it to be an "original" design when somebody designs their own stik. But at least in that case they did their own work.

There is a lot of information available from various sources such as RCU. How does a person with no experience pass along information that he doesn't even know is correct? I have received a lot of ideas over the years but it took me personally putting them into practice to prove to myself what works and what doesn't. That's why if you actually follow the directions given on my site that you can trust it will work.

But Daniel doesn't know that because he hasn't actually done it. So what gives him any authority to write a "walkthrough for designing model aircraft"?

This is another fundamentally dishonest argument. At least two or three times in my first post I praised him for attempting to credit others work properly and for attempting to make a contribution. And I have not asked Daniel to remove any of my work from his guide.

I'm not happy that he used it without my permission or that he didn't even tell me about it. I'm not happy to the extent that he used my work. And as I and others have explained in detail, he should be speaking from a position of authority.

I am flattered that he sees me as some kind of authority but I think the blind trust aspect of it is a mistake. What if I'm simply a raving lunatic? What does that do for his credibility?

If you knew me personally one thing that would stand out is that I don't talk about things I don't know about as if I do. I don't claim to be certain of things I couldn't possibly know. I think OJ did it but I don't know for a fact that he did. The only people who could possibly know are him and anyone who was there to witness it. I hope you're seeing the point there.

CafeenMan

In Daniel's defense, he did e-mail me after my first post and he said that he would remove my work from his guide at my request. While I have issues with the way he went about this, I have not asked him to remove anything. When I actually read it that might change but I'm leaning toward leaving it alone. Eventually he'll make his own discoveries and contribute something much better.

haikt

My Feedback: (11)

Please tell me what is original in your work that has not been done before,
in the case of your delta wing let's say it's good design and idea but I can show you an article in mk(1969) that uses very similarr design for a combat wing did you get thair ok to put it on your site
also most everything I see there is comonsense stuff
show me one thing that is your own that was not done before
using specs for building model airlanes and anything else been here long before me and you
I have some original designs and ideas in this hobbie
I don't want to get personal as I belive everyone has thair opinion but you pretend that you invented the wheel
and think it's now ok for you to dictate other people

allanflowers

"I have some original designs and ideas in this hobbie" (sic)

Let's see them!

I have seen CafeenMan's stuff and it is GOOD.
His work is worth protecting (which copyright law DOES, as he and others have correctly stated).

Is your stuff worth it? Otherwise I would have to conclude that you don't really have a dog in this fight. People who don't understand professionalism, creativity and originality seldom value it very much. At least Daniel can claim he didn't mean to infringe but your continued attitude is hard to defend.

haikt

My Feedback: (11)

Unlike you I do value everyones work no matter how small small it may be
what I don't get is everyone gets uptight about (it my work ) aspect of it

As far as my contributions to this hobbie I don't need anyones aproval afterall this is just a hobbie
but when I get home I will post some of my work so you can judge me. Lol

haikt

My Feedback: (11)

Here is my most recent design

haikt

My Feedback: (11)

Here are some more..... enjoy and you can take anything you like lol


Scratch built CNC router (made all electronic boards also)
Scratch built profile plane ( self designed carbon horns, concealed servo tray blah blah blah)
I have lot more if you are interested.

allanflowers

Not bad. You are not the clueless guy I thought.

Nonetheless, although you might not care about people taking your work without asking, you still don’t have the right to make that decision for someone else.

CafeenMan

What I am saying is that it is not ok to republish significant portions of copyrighted material with the permission of the copyright holder. And the law agrees with me.

haikt really doesn't have a dog in this fight.

You didn't answer my question, haikt. Have you ever published anything significant? If so where is it?

haikt

My Feedback: (11)

No I have not published any documents in this hobby but I have published reports for work (sorry you cant see those)

CafeenMan

That's what I thought. Let me know when you personally have something on the line please.

Also, search "Copyright law" to educate yourself.

And please stop with the "everyone thinks they invented the wheel" lie. I've never said anything remotely like that. I've told you that once already.

Lastly, as you don't understand copyrights, you also don't understand burden of proof.

YOU are making the claim nothing on my site is original (as I said, I didn't claim the ideas were my original ideas). But still, you're making the claim. You back it up.

The bottom line is that my work is copyrighted and I have rights in that regard. I've been very generous over the years in allowing people to reprint from my site. All I asked is that they ask permission and that they tell/show me what they're doing with it. It's not much to ask

And it certainly doesn't warrant making all this personal does it?

haikt

My Feedback: (11)

CafeenMan
I dont want to sound like a dead horse but I just went back to your site and read everything again
I failed to find any information that I have not known in the past or could not have found, you just collected it all and posted on your site
I have to add that I respect your wprk and admire your dedication but dont like the fact that you try to stop someone else from doing the same.
I am done with this because have lots of other stuff to do but lighten up this is a hobby and none of the stuff gets created out of thin air just gets passed around
Daniel-M you are doing a fine job with your article and also with your build. some of the people would wish to be half as good as you on thair first try, dont be worried to bend the (modeling rules) as long as it is safe, Try anything new that you think will work and if it dose not you will learn a lot , thats the best part we get enough nagging and whinning at work and life and it should stay out of this hobby.
enjoy

haikt

My Feedback: (11)

There is nothing on your site for someone to use other then your overblown ego.
Please enjoy the hobby and dont try to educate everyone around you just try to enjoy.

Daniel_M

Haikt, thanks for your encouragement, support, and most importantly your open-mindedness. Also, thank you for your will to defend not only me, but also many others who try to do something that they originally wished would help people, but in turn get flamed, humiliated, and blamed. Thank god that these can't break me.

With that said, I apologize to CafeenMan for primarily not reading the Copyright page on his website- should I have read that you ask for permission to use your information even if it is all cited in the bibliography, I assure you that I would have done so. And in that, sorry about this 'misunderstanding'.

Having said that, I will continue writing this set of articles- but now, I won't paraphrase, quote, or do anything like that. I had enough of being blamed for 'false' content (although everyone failed to mention what exactly IS 'false'), and do not want to also be blamed for 'quoting'. As far as I'm concerned, I agree with haikt in the respect of originality- but copyright law is on your side, CafeenMan, and don't worry- I won't quote from your website again. With that almost everything, like haikt said, is history and 'nothing is new under the sun'- but that means none of us can claim copyright for ideas. If we did not learn and expand on discoveries of others, there would certainly be no progress for each of us would have to start from ground zero.

Sincerely,

Daniel.