foresterxt

My Feedback: (35)

So, I bit the bullet and ordered a Giant Telemaster Kit from Hobby-Lobby today (20% off today, $270). Of course I want to put this beast on floats. I've never built a plane this big. I'm hoping to get a pair of 68" floats from Ralph. How much more power am I going to need for this plane with the floats. HL say's it'll fly easily with a G26, I've got a Magnum 1.80fs which seems to be slightly stronger then a G26. The AUW of this plane is suposed to be 23 lbs however this monster has got a 150" wingspan and a 50" tail feather. Are the floats going to require quite a bit more power? I'm certainly not looking for vertical or to hang on the prop, this is going to be one huge mother that will most likely just lumber through the air.

Thanks,

Dave

JimCasey

My Feedback: (1)

I built a senior tele with an OS .91 4 stroke. It was adequately powered and would take off from water in 8 feet. But at 1/3 throttle it took 200 feet and it was as pretty a scale-looking takeoff as you'll ever want to see. I build light and I make my own floats which are very much like ralph's, and the AUW was 10 pounds.

If everything is strictly scaled up, the 12' telemaster should weigh about 34 pounds, (12/8, cubed, x 10)
so at 26 pounds you should have something that flies like a wisp of smoke.

The 1.8 should fly it. You might have to plan ahead before you do an immelman, But I don't see you having trouble getting off the ground/water. Ralph's 68" floats should be perfect.

seaplane

This spring I made a set of 67" floats for a 12' Telemaster belonging to a gentleman in Texas. He plans to piggy back a Tiger Moth on floats, like I've seen gliders launched. I haven't heard from him for a few months, so I don't know what his progress is. He said he was going to enlarge the verticle stab since they are a little small on the Telemasters. I think that was a wise decision especially when adding floats.

PS the floats were so large, I had to ship them in seperate boxes and, thanks to USPS, both arrived in Texas with the boxes busted up and the floats broken. Luckily he had the knowledge and skills to repair them, which he did. I wasn't very happy with the USPS' handling of the whole situation even though they were insured. I guess I learned a lesson the hard way.

Seaplane

Ed Sidders

My Feedback: (2)

Hi Y'all
Just started a rebuild (old age related) of my Giant Telemaster. Been flying it for years off land with a g-38 , enough power to get you out of trouble. I'm planning to use a pair of Cunningham type floats about 6 1/2 feet long and 6 inches square,laminated pink foam and sheeted. Also adding area to vert. stab.
Does anyone know of a source of pink foam thicker than 1 inch here in the local East Texas area ? I'm open to suggestions on this project.
Thanks .Ed

seaplane

Ed, I buy my 2" foam at Home Depot. Of course the weather here in Michigan is not the same as Texas!
Seaplane

BretChilcott

My Feedback: (1)

What is the width of your floats?

Also, what is the maximum gross weight of your aircraft? (with payloads)

I am building a 12' snr. telemaster too but it will carry about 20 pounds of video equipment.

I am posting construction pix at:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/bretchi...7614314236834/

Thanks!

Bret C
Neodesha, KS

BretChilcott

My Feedback: (1)

Guys - any of you find that you need extra vertical stabilizer area to compensate for the drag of the floats?

I am building mine to accept extra vertical stabilizers which can be affixed to the end of the horizontal stabilizer as well as a dorsal fin. All of this is what you might see on a float plane in Alaska.

Keep up the chatter.

Thanks!

Bret C
Neodesha, KS

robinson727

Hi Bret..
We are in the middle of a 12 Telemaster build and also thought about putting it on floats.. What is the status of your project?
I looked at your web site and saw some of your solutions for some of the questionable areas on the "Tele" thanks for all of the photos.. We to are going to dual "V" struts and a revised attach system for both the struts and wing center section and spruce spars..
On your AN fitting for the struts.. fine but only one AD-3 rivet to pin it in place or are there more? Are you also going to add jury struts?
Thanks again
Al

BretChilcott

My Feedback: (1)

Hello Al:

Thanks for the note. Not much progress on the Tele. A large home improvement project took priority last year and my job was recently eliminated which is requiring me to start a company. But - you are providing some inspiration for me to get back on the project!

The A&N hardware is epoxied into the aluminum strut tubes and also secured with one rivet. You do bring up a good suggestion of two. However the hardware is so small that I am concerned about loosing strength in the hardware by drilling another hole. Because I am using two separate struts I thought the design would be adequate, but maybe not.

I had not planned on putting jury struts on it, but that is a good idea. Now that you mention this, I think I will add them. If nothing else, it will prevent them from vibrating.

My floats are laminated foam ready to cut out on the band saw. Planning to put servos inside the floats to control dual float rudders.

Please let me know if you have any other suggestions or questions.

Thanks!

Bret C

robinson727

Hi Bret..
Our 12' Telemaster is framed up, wings and tail group covered, fuse. and L/G complete (titanium leaf spring tailwheel!) w/ the exception of 1/16 ply skin we are adding on the fuse. sides from the firewall aft to the station where the rear float attach fittings reside. (add filler blocks/strips to tie it all in as well)
My partner and I (Boris Mazor, a talented craftsman and engineer) were seriously unimpressed w/ the kit, marginal by any standards and because this nearly approaches full scale construction technique (I have built one wood full size homebuilt, an 8/10 Bucker Jungmeister w/ 180 Lycoming and another homebuilt going together as we speak) so we made some mods.
1/8 X 3/4 poplar capstrips on the upper and lower spars, ditto for the fuse. longerons aft to the rear of the cabin.. 1/4" square truss members added in the aft fuselage. and laminated maple spar carry throughs. The virt. fin was pretty weak.. I added some 3/32 X 3 skins fore and aft and if you have already built it, just make some 1/16 capstrips to fill the skins in.. This adds a tremendous amount of strength with little weight gain..
We haven't decided on the wing struts or attach fittings yet.. Last night after finishing up the 2nd wing covering I conducted a test with the plans built lift strut attach fitting and was dismayed to discover the wing washes "in" under load.. Unacceptable.. Part of the problem is the lift strut attach is behind the T-4 (1/4 chord) line and the other is an incomplete "D Box" leading edge with no lower skins. I should have seen it earlier. No biggie with a light 12' Telemaster but you and I are going to have heavy weight versions and we need the strength. My bad but that this was an extreme load test, we will see what happens on test. On your AN fittings for the strut ends (AN-77? can't remember) maybe think about installing a low mass (MS) nut on the threads to give the epoxy plug something to grab.. We are using K&S extrusions w/ a carbon "sock" and the jury strut I mentioned.

Good parts? The laser cut pieces were accurate, the plans excellent but really check yours out Bret, this kit has a lot of problems and a lot of it (in ours) was wood selection that was incorrect for the job.

The Honda GX-31 (C&H ignition) we are using reacted well last weekend to the intake mods and larger Walbro carb.. I know it will do fine with the Telemaster on wheels, the "Big If" is will it have enough to get it out of the water with the fuel load(12 lbs) for the record attempt, I dunno yet. It spins a 19 X 6 Robbie to 7800 rpm but I have not done static thrust tests after the mods yet..

Things to consider..
The floats will require additional virt. fin area, we both know that.. Rather than add additional area on the stab, with attendant span, attach fitting and torsional loading issues, think about a simple "sub rudder" on the bottom of the fuselage. (look at a picture of a "Jabberwock" rubber model for the idea and it's a nice shape, I can send you a pic of mine if you wish) The other thought is an "active" yaw damper via rate gyro.. See this months AMA mag (MA) for a great write up on how to do it.
We are 3 weeks into this and if I had another week off it would fly.. Then the floats!!
Have you seen Cunninghams simple calc page on float design? Maybe take a look here: http://www.seminolerc.com/EZ-Float-Design.html
While these are flat bottom floats, the dimensions and layout are spot on, I have used these moments for years.

"Think light, build strong"

Al

BretChilcott

My Feedback: (1)

Good morning Al:

Wow, you are doing a great job. You should be proud of the Telemaster you are building. Yes, I ditto your comments on the quality of the kit and the components. Also, I agree with the importance of selecting the correct wood. The stock Telemaster would probably be OK with the balsa for the spars and longerons, however as you pointed out, most people will want to carry some type of significant load with their Telemaster and should consider using stronger materials in strategic areas. I had some stitka spruce from a previous project and ended up using most of it on my Telemaster. Excellent suggestion on the additional vertical stab surface area buy simply going with a larger dorsal fin.

Thanks for the tip on the float calculations. Yes, I had reviewed these perviously and I am using them in the design of my floats.

I would love to get back on my Telemaster project but because my job was eliminated a the company I was working at, my wife and I are starting an enterprise that will require all of my attention and then some. However, I will get my Telemaster on the bench this weekend to shoot a short video on a product that I developed some time ago now that I have time we are going to market them. It is a shroud device that turns a common box fan into an air filter for wood workers, model airplane builders, dust, pollen and more. Al, you might check it out at www.filterAfan.com . Pop me a direct email on this subject so not to bog down the thread with your feedback at bretchilcott(RemoveThis)@gmail.com .

So, do you think the Z G38 will have enough power for my bird?

Thanks Al.

Bret C

robinson727

Hi Bret,
Neat device for the fan, I have done something similar with thin filter foam from window A/C units before from Home Depot.. It works.. Now I have a 2hp 5' dia shop fan, trust me, it gets the dust out!
No worries on the G-38, plenty of snap on wheels and as long as (we) keep 'em light, Telemaster will probably do ok off water to.. The floats are the key. Nice sharp chines, C/G in the correct relationship with the step, "V" bottom, very strong rigging on the floats and keep 'em light. The .90 size floats I used to build years ago came in at 2.5 lbs. each and I will let you know how these larger ones work out and if you wish, I will save the templates for you...
More in a bit, I had some outpatient surgery today and I'm a little pookie.. My friend Boris is dinging away on the fuselage mods as we speak, I might get to see him tomorrow so maybe another snap..
More in a bit

Al

robinson727

Hi Ya Bret-n-all.
The Telemaster fuselage is about ready to cover.. Aviox alternator and switching regulator are installed on the
Honda and I made a change in the fuselage and added a turtle back fairing to the top..It's getting close.. floats to go..
Al

BretChilcott

My Feedback: (1)

Al - Great work! Looking good. I really like what you did on the turtle deck. I need to research the alternator you are talking about. Sounds like a good deal. Keep up the good work. Thanks! Bret C

robinson727

Hi Bret..
I contacted Mark Smith at Seaplane Supply and he is doing the floats for us, pics when they arrive..
Last week we tested the new Dragon Link 70cm rf modules for Telemaster.. A bit of a hack to get the transmitter module to work with an old JR XF622 but it does and so far very well.. I am testing in this old 40 trainer and thus far not a hiccup but I want to put a bunch of flights on it prior to committing the Telemaster.. BTW: The alternator is a custom wound unit by Aveox for this engine RPM (kV's) and should provide 12.5 -13V thru a switching regulator they built for us. I have not had a chance to run the Honda and load test the alternator but it's a pretty good installation and should be reliable.. I used a coupling from an old OS 7.5cc hydro engine I had so it is more than up to the task.. Considering the flea power of the Honda obviously the alternator will be "off" for "ROW" takeoff.
I have not had much time this week but expect to get the ball rolling after Fri. when I go on vacation..

More as it develops.
Al

BretChilcott

My Feedback: (1)

Hello Al:

Thank you for the update. Wow, I am anxious to see the floats. Wow they should be great. How long are they going to be? Also, are you mounting servos in the floats for water rudders?

Do you know if there is an alternator available for the Zen G38? Or have you seen any plans for an old fashion wind generator?

Thanks Al.

Bret C

JimCasey

My Feedback: (1)

Onboard generator:Sullivan Genesys.

BretChilcott

My Feedback: (1)

Very cool!


Thanks for posting the link to the in aircraft alternator.

Got to get one of these!

Thanks

Bret C

robinson727

Hi Ya Bret (-n-Jim)
Sorry for the delay, I have been on the road a good bit for FedEx..

We looked at the Genesys and it's great product but the kV was to low, it's designed for nitro motors.. To find what you need, run the Zenoah, tach it and that will tell you what you are looking for as far as kV for the alternator.. (rpm/volt) The Zenoah will probably be around 9-10K rpm so determine what your voltage needs will be (avionics, camera whatever) and go from there but 12VDC is a constant for most switching regulators with 5V and 6V outputs.. Email me and I can help if you want to go this route but with the light weight Lipo battery's it really is not necessary. We only did it for the record attempt because the 3W video transmitter is hi draw..

The Telemaster is about done.. Last weekend, my friend Boris got the throttle linkage nailed together and Wed. before I had to fly out I finished that part up and got the stab brackets beefed up with .007" CF strips on the bottom, then glassed the whole works and installed it on the fuselage with screws and epoxy. I am still concerned about the torsional weakness in the aft part of the fuselage, even w/ all of our mods, it's "whippy" torsionally so today I will rip some 3/16" sq. spruce and install diagionals across the "Y" axis of the fuselage and see if we can get rid of the problem. The tail volume is huge on this thing and this is a very hi stress area so it's got to be right.. I start vacation next week so we can really "hit it" and get 'er wrapped up, I hope Steve get's the floats on the way soon, I still have to fab up the spreaders and float rigging..
BTW, the new "Dragon Link" 70cm RF system (465mHz) works a peach.. I have installed it in an old .40 trainer for test and absolutly no glitches whatsoever, even with the trainer almost out of sight, it was rock solid so this will work well for our seaplane record attempt later this year but always cautious, a few more flights and I will be confidant that it will be ok for Telemaster..
Pics to follow..

Al

BretChilcott

My Feedback: (1)

Al - thanks for the feed back. Very good stuff. Special thanks for your concern regarding the torsional loads on the tail. I will also address this. (glad I delayed the project so I can still do something about it) Also - thank you for your tips on the alternator. Will look into it further in the weeks to come.

Keep up the chatter guys, very good information.

Thanks

Bret C

JimCasey

My Feedback: (1)

Flew a Senior Tele for years and although the rear fuselage was not triangulated, I had no problems with lack of toraional stiffness.  The covering material contributes a lot, and flex actually lowers stresses. 

OTOH: A Senior Kadet or a Flyin'King are both triangulated.  Both are best covered with transparent to show off the gorgeous structure beneath. 

All of these planes, and many others, look funny at idle because that is near the natural frequency of the tail, and the empennage develops some whip.  A don't know if it does it in the air, or whether having the LG in contact with the ground aggravates it. 

robinson727

Jim -n-Bret..
The floats for the Telemaster are here, what a fine piece of work Mark Smith (Seaplane Supply) did for us.. I am sure he saved the data so when you need your floats Bret, give him a jingle..
Today it's freezing cold here in the Memphis area and I just didn't feel like working much today but I got the splines and hardback 45 deg. splices done for the floats, maybe I will finish that up tomorrow.
Here is a coupla snaps, I set the float on top of Telemaster so you can see the scale..
Al

robinson727

Howdy Brett and all.

TAA DAAA!!
The Telemaster had it's first flight on Sat. and my friend Boris had his grandson Misha video the flights so we can all see .. Excellent job Misha!!
http://www.youtube.com:80/watch?v=W5Z3n5nFNbk

If you want, skip to about 4:15 for the first flight.. The location was Colonial Gliderport near our home in N. MS. and the weather was perfect for our test..

The only issue was the throttle.. We will re-locate the servo and get rid of the hysterisis in the throttle cable but other than that it was perfect.. no rigging issues whatsoever which considering the amount of re-work the design and the kit called for is amazing and a tribute to Boris's ability to build the airframe straight and true..
As a sidebar issue.. There was no time to rebuild the cowling to accomidate the new 55cc opposed twin but that will get done this week. Only an apperance issue, it will look nice when it's done and we will also finish the trim stripes and graphics before we fly Telemaster again..

Overall impressions of the Telemaster?
The kit was miserable and Hobby Lobby should have never allowed this on the market. With out the structural re-work, an inflight failure was a certainty (there have been 3 other failures) but this is not an issue with the mods that Boris and I made. The amount of work involved is a huge investment in time and money and knowing what we know now, it would have been better and easier for us to design our own rather than deal with all of the problems that surfaced as we got into it last winter.

On the plus side: This is a very lightly loaded and way over powered (perfect!!) design that will work well for our FPV (first person video) experments off water.. The stability is in part a function of size and mass and that coupled witht he smoothness of the opposed twin will make Telemaster an ideal camera platform. As soon as we get the GoPro video camera, Dragon OSD and IMU installed we should get some excellent inflight video, then we will install the floats and see how it does off water..

Special thanks to Boris Mazor, "Chief Project Engineer" and Misha for capturing the event on video.. This was a long and complex project and there is no way we could have done it with out Boris..

Good friends, good times !!


Al and Christopher

robinson727

Howdy all..
Telemaster floats.. we are getting close to that first flight off water. Yesterday I got the water rudder linkage worked out, next is the re-do on the cowling.. Video when we fly..
Al

BretChilcott

My Feedback: (1)

Very nice work on the ST. It looks GREAT! No progress here in KS on the ST. We have had several family issues as well as the loss of a job and the start up of a new business. So the old TM has not changed much. Thanks for the video. Progress reports like this helps motivate me. Thanks! Bret c