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Grumman Widgeon

Old 03-20-2009, 09:26 AM
  #201  
Chip_Mull
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Default RE: Grumman Widgeon

Hi Oscar:

Any reason to read about Widgeons, whatever the cause is a good one. I'm checking on the retracts.
Old 03-20-2009, 12:39 PM
  #202  
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Default RE: Grumman Widgeon

Charles. I had someone who follows this thread e-mail me some time ago regarding a Mr.G's kit he wanted to sell. I declined the offer but perhaps if he sees this thread again he can contact you. I have no idea who it was so I can't give you a name.
Personally, I would not want another considering all the deficiencies in scale outline and poor structual design. IMHO.
Peter
Old 03-20-2009, 12:45 PM
  #203  
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Default RE: Grumman Widgeon

Thanks, Peter,

I put the two elevator servos in the left and right stabilizers, because I couldn't figure out a way to get the linkage to the cabin. In my small 1967 Widgeon, I used a flexible nyrod-type hookup, but it would expand and contract with temperature, messing up the trims. I need to lighten up the quarter scale in order to be sure to come in below the AMA 55 lb. limit with the retracts installed. I wanted to get the servos out of the tail, as an ounce there calls for three ounces in the nose. Other ideas are to go to fabric-covered flaps, elevators and rudder. However the Widgeon I modelled has been totally metalized.

My earlier Coast Guard quarter scale had the fabric covering on the built up balsa tail surfaces. I also used pre-painted coverite on the wing and tail, to keep weight down. It weighed 44 lb. (I was shooting for 30 lb.) On the rebuild, we did it right, with balsa covered foam cores, fiberglassed and painted, and it came out 51 lb. On water, it now really could use more power than the Ryobi's, but it should take off fine from land. I am worried that the retract gear may not take the landing stresses of such a heavy plane. The pilot of the Robart test Widgeon, also pretty heavy, says that it "flies light", and he did fly it off land in Top Gun.
Old 03-20-2009, 02:59 PM
  #204  
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Default RE: Grumman Widgeon

Hi Oscar,
I'm not too happy with the split pushrod. as I said it's a bit too flexible. I may try to bend up a new one with shorter bends or even try to bend one up out of 4-40 rod. The pr;oblem is that I have to spring it to get it through the slots in the vertical fin and then bend it to line up with the horns. As I said, working downin the rear of the fuselage is a real pain where you have to work by feel.
I'm doing everything I can to keep the weight forward. I epoxied a couple of ounces of lead shot in the nose and the balance seems to be not too far off. Right now I'm cutting all the holes and slots in the cowls for the exhaust, needle valves and remote fuelers. Lots of picky work where nothing seems to get done.
Peter
Old 03-20-2009, 04:06 PM
  #205  
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Default RE: Grumman Widgeon

ScaleAero,

Are you looking for 1/4 scale gear?

I've said, repeatedly, I'm building a set for a 1/6 scale model. I would consider a 1/5 scale model, but there's no glass fuselage available in that scale. Glass anyone?

The reason I would consider 1/5 scale is, I have one Brison 2.4 NIB. I believe two of these may do the trick at 1/5 scale?

Do the cad drawings and send me a set for a look. Interesting note, the bottom strut appears to be 2 degrees different than the upper strut. Could be a drawing error, but my guess is it's engineered in for a reason.

I'm at a lost because I have no downloaded drawings of gear, in a decent resolution.

Be nice to have a set on paper. Someone's got them.[:@]

Charles
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Old 03-20-2009, 05:07 PM
  #206  
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Default RE: Grumman Widgeon

Charles. don't you think a pair of Brison 2.4s is a bit overkill for 1/5 scale? 1/5 scale is only 96" span. IMHO a pair of 90 or 120 four strokes would probably be ample or maybe a couple of G26's if you could fit them in the cowls.
Peter
Old 03-20-2009, 06:57 PM
  #207  
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Default RE: Grumman Widgeon

Peter,

I'm not sure if the two 2.4 Brison's will or won't. I have a question mark there. I'm looking for input.

I do know that "good" scale models do weigh a bit more than models that are not scale.

Outrigger floats, rigging, don't forget my two big round radial nacelles and the model isn't really "clean" as airplanes go.

Also, you don't have to use all the power but it's nice to have, if for nothing else, getting out of the water.

Charles
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Old 03-20-2009, 09:05 PM
  #208  
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Default RE: Grumman Widgeon

You asked for input, and the input from Peter is that Brison 2.4's would be overkill. I agree with Peter. I fly my 51 lb. quarter scale with two Ryobi 31 cc engines.(And they are not very "hot" engines.) That is about 1.8 cubic inch. Keep the weight down, and don't load the 1/5 scale down with these two heavy engines. They would be more appropriate for the quarter scale, but severe overkill on a 1/5 scale, and way too heavy.
Old 03-21-2009, 06:29 AM
  #209  
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Default RE: Grumman Widgeon

ellysbro ,

Thanks for the information, and I agree with you.

Here's an easy question or two that you Widgeon enthusiasts should have available.

What is the main wheel tire size on the "full size" aircraft?

What is the tail wheel tire size on the "full size" aircraft?

In "inches" please.

I ordered the Paul Matt drawings. We'll see what they have to offer offer? If they are anything like his Bamboo Bomber, they will be fine.

Also, and more importantly, are theWidgeon's "full size" measurements and specs available, on line, anywhere?

Thanks in advance,

Charles



Old 03-21-2009, 10:09 AM
  #210  
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Default RE: Grumman Widgeon

Charles, the tire size given on the Paul Matt drawings are; mains, 7.5" X 10". The OA dia isn't given but by using the scale on the drawing I would estimate 24"-25" dia. The tail wheel is given as a Bendix 10"dia.
Peter
Old 03-21-2009, 11:58 AM
  #211  
ellysbro
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Default RE: Grumman Widgeon

Scaling off the Drawings, I made the quarter scale main tires as 6 inch diameter, a readily available size. This would mean 24 inch diameter for full-size. Al Franklin found an ancient pair of 6-1/2 inch wheels in the back of a dusty shelf in a hobby shop. That would scale to 26 inch diameter for full-scale. He used these, and made his wheel wells in the fiberglass hull to fit, so my 6 inch wheels looked too small. I couldn't find any 6-1/2 inch wheels, so Al sent me one of his 6-1/2 inch wheels, which I used to vacuum form a couple of dummy half wheels for my seaplane-only model.

So for a 1/5 scale. it seems that 5 inch wheels would do nicely. Robart was offering wheels to go with their quarter scale retract gear, but I don't know the size.
Old 03-21-2009, 04:28 PM
  #212  
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Default RE: Grumman Widgeon

Peter,

Thanks for the info. I'll have the Paul Matt drawings in a week or so, I ordered them.

ellysbro,

I need the actual tire diameter, with no guesswork.

My graphicxs program, remember, I do do graphicxs, will allow me to enter photo drawings of the gear, which I have. Crummy in resolution as they are, but one must work with what one has. I see no one offering those gear drawings on paper or at a better resolution?

I can then enlarge the gear photos to the actual size of the real aircraft. I can then draw the gear "full size," over the gear photo drawings.

Once this incredible accomplishment and ridiculous amount of work is done, I can then scale my drawing to any size I choose. 1/4. 1/5, 1/6, it makes no difference.

OR! If I had one correct measurement on the gear photo drawing, I could use that. There are no measurements on the drawings I downloaded from this Thread. [:@]

I can still get it done.

Charles

Another Widgeon with "juggs" round nacelles!

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Old 03-21-2009, 04:49 PM
  #213  
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Default RE: Grumman Widgeon

OK, I won't waste time digging up answers for your many unending questions. If my "guesswork" is not good enough, then I guess that you should do your own guesswork.

Good luck!
Old 03-21-2009, 08:57 PM
  #214  
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Default RE: Grumman Widgeon

OK, I won't waste time digging up answers for your many unending questions. If my "guesswork" is not good enough, then I guess that you should do your own guesswork.
ellysbro,

I appreciate you're digging up answers, and anyone else that's digging also. so, for their and your assistance, thank you all.

I did mention I'm really looking for correct specifics.

This is why I asked for the "actual" main wheel tire size. Knowing the true or actual and correct tire size would eliminate guesswork.

I would like to draw the gear once and do it as correctly and as accurately as possible. And I would like to draw it full size.

What's the point in putting in the work to do the drawing any other way? It takes a considerable amount of work to draw a mechanical, that can be used as a blueprint, to fabricate working retract gear.

Conversation, help and ideas is needed and appreciated.

Charles


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Old 03-22-2009, 10:24 AM
  #215  
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Default RE: Grumman Widgeon

Apology time.

I noticed that there "IS" a couple of measurements on the actual full scale Widgeon gear drawing that went unnoticed.

So, now equipped with these measurements, barely readable though, I can scale the photo to the actual size of the full scale aircraft. Once this is done, I'll be able to determine the actual size of each and every gear part, including the tire size.

So, I apologize for asking for the tire size while the answer was right in front of me. Sorry.

Turns out, "based on the full scale drawing," that the actual tire size is 24.5" in diameter on the side view and 24" in diameter on the front view. Not actually a bad guess that was offered before, taken from the Paul Matt drawings, which I will have shortly.

The discrepancy, in the drawings in tire size, will have no effect with the gear drawing which I will do, of the parts or of the operating mechanics. Simply make the gear and place whatever tire size you choose.

Incidentally, I too like to increase the tire size on models whenever possible, and I view this as an advantage.

To draw the gear correctly, I really need accurate measurements. I wish I had one other important view, from above, which I don't have.

When my line drawing is completed, I can then scale the drawing to any size I choose. My graphicxs program will allow for a drawing, traced at that scale of choice on paper. The drawing, on paper, will then be the mechanical or blueprint, which will be used for building the gear parts. Also, because my program works in vectored lines, possibly, some gear parts could be laser or water jet cut. Possibly?

Incidentally, any drawing of the Widgeon aircraft can be entered into the program I use and increased to the actual full size aircraft. This is a great feature, in that, it will allow for the drawing of rivet or panel line detail with accuracy. If one chooses to take detailing this far.

I will try to determine the size of the "most used" rivet on the Widgeon. They are everyplace, obvious, and not flush!

A quick note. I did send an E-mail to G&P inquiring about their 81" kit. My primary interest was scale outlines, but as I said once before, there are variables that I can live with.

Charles



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Old 03-22-2009, 12:50 PM
  #216  
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Default RE: Grumman Widgeon

I tried enlarging the Paul Matt Drawing, but the lines also got enlarged, and they appeared very wide and fuzzy on the blowup, to the extent that one could not be sure exactly where to measure from. Perhaps your software somehow digitizes the lines, (you mentioned vectors), so that they remain a reasonable width when the remainder of the drawing is enlarged.

Incidently, the original Paul Matt drawing was 1/24 scale, or 1/2 inch to the foot. It was two large 16 x 22 sheets. In the magazine article and the Historical Aviation Album, it was reduced to 1/48 scale, or 1/4 inch to the foot, so it could fit on two 8-1/2 x 11 inch sheets. I hope that you are getting the larger one. I still had to enlarge the larger version six times to get quarter scale, which is 3 inches per foot. So the lines became six times as wide. for full scale, I would have had to enlarge it 24 times.

Al Franklin used a projector to shine the enlarged image on a large sheet of paper on a wall. He then traced the image onto the paper.
Old 03-22-2009, 02:02 PM
  #217  
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Default RE: Grumman Widgeon

ellysbro,

Thanks for the reply and information.

I tried enlarging the Paul Matt Drawing, but the lines also got enlarged, and they appeared very wide and fuzzy on the blowup, to the extent that one could not be sure exactly where to measure from.
Yes, this is understandable, and your correct, when the line is thick, where does one begin to measure from? However, I've viewed your 25% Widgeon photos many times, and I must say you did an absolute great job!

Perhaps your software somehow digitizes the lines, (you mentioned vectors), so that they remain a reasonable width when the remainder of the drawing is enlarged.
My ability to pan in and out at will, allows me to zero in on the actual line. Even with these poor resolution drawings, I can be reasonably accurate.

Thing is, I still have to draw each and every line by hand. To do justice, or to arrive at a professional quality 'mechanical," I'll spend close to 30 hours drawing and refining. Makes no since to do these drawings any other way. Reason is, they have to look correct, operate correct and the wheel has to lay flat when retracted, as per the actual aircraft.

I may also draw in and include a way to adjust one strut pivot point, which will aid in accomplishing that "flat" against the fuselage look for the wheel and tire.

the original Paul Matt drawing was 1/24 scale, or 1/2 inch to the foot. It was two large 16 x 22 sheets. In the magazine article and the Historical Aviation Album, it was reduced to 1/48 scale, or 1/4 inch to the foot, so it could fit on two 8-1/2 x 11 inch sheets. I hope that you are getting the larger one?
Yes, yes I am, and rolled.

Al Franklin used a projector to shine the enlarged image on a large sheet of paper on a wall. He then traced the image onto the paper.
Depending on the lenses and the quality of the projector, good accuracy can be had by that method.

Fortunately, I can enlarge photos of drawings to the actual size of the aircraft. After my lines are drawn, I can adjust the scale to my liking, which BTW isn't carved in stone just yet, then my "plotter" can draw the image as accurately as my drawings, and to the scale I set.

I just wish more was available to make my life easier. that is, gear I can purchase out of the box. In my choice of scale, of course.

Anyone else interested in the large "juggs" radials? Anyone know what engine was actually used in Widgeons with radials and what the overall diameter would be? Anyone know what the cowling diameter would be for radials?

Thanks in advance.

Charles

A quick note. This photo was scanned from a line drawing I did over a photo, of a downloaded drawing, of the Bamboo Bomber.

I enlarged the photo to the actual size of the aircraft. Did my drawing then printed it out on an 8.5 x 11. I scanned it back in to place it in a Bamboo Bomber Thread, I'm active in.

Even with second generation, much can be had from the photo. You can even see where I did a drawing overlay of the retract gear. I'm working on this model also.

Big "jugg" radials again.


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Old 03-22-2009, 02:47 PM
  #218  
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A long time ago, in a computer language class, I wrote a program that enabled me to digitize a drawing into a file which could then be manipulated and plotted. It was a low priced plotter, but it could be interrogated to return its current position to the computer. The drawing was placed on the plotter bed, and a stylus with a tiny lightbeam was mounted in place of the plotter pen. Using the manual controls of the plotter, I could position the light stylus over a point, and the plotter could transmit its x-y position to the computer.

For example, you could tell the program, from a menu, that the element being digitized was a straight line. It then asked you to move the stylus to one end of the line and press enter. Then it asked for the other end of the line. After both ends were entered, it would store the line in the file for that drawing, as simply the end points x-y coordinates. Circles were stored as the center and radius, and so on. Text had to be entered from the keyboard. It did a good job of digitizing a simple drawing, and then plotting a duplicate from the stored file. I never went beyond that point (pun), but I can see how one could manipulate the data for scaling the drawing. The good thing is that the plots of the scaled drawing file could be with whatever line width you selected.

I got an "A", and later wrote progams for training a teaching robot and also for finding a star with my telescope. I have always been fascinated with controlling machines with a computer. Perhaps this ties in somehow with my love of remote control.
Old 03-22-2009, 03:05 PM
  #219  
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Default RE: Grumman Widgeon

One piece of equipment athat is available is a digital scanner which stores all points on a drawing with X-Y co-ordinates. The drawing can then be replotted at any scale you desire and the line width can also be prescribed. This equipment is usually associated with engineering drawings but if you know someone in the business or are willing to pay a few bucks it might result in a superior job. How much is 30 hours worth?
Peter
Old 03-22-2009, 04:38 PM
  #220  
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Default RE: Grumman Widgeon

All I know about are "bitmaps" and solid vector lines. For a drawing machine, laser machine, or a water jet cutter, to be able to follow a line, it must be in "vectored" format. Illustrator type program for example. Most of this equipment will read Illustrator files.

Bitmap images can be printed but not brought into a "vectored" line format. There's no lines to follow that are vectored.

I do have a program I seldom use, called "Streamline." This great program will change a "bitmap" image to a vectored image by automatic tracing. However, the lines need a "clean up," and many wind up looking like tiny tiny steps, and are never accurate enough to us as a mechanical. Especially if the mechanical is to be used for the making of parts.

I use Streamline, to trace art or to trace fonts which I'm to lazy to look for. Keep in mind, I run a Sign and Grapgicxs business. The model graphicxs I do is just a side line and I really don't push for work in that area. I am a modeler first.

But considering my plotter cuts vinyl, it also, when you place a pen in it, will draw. It's designed to use a special drawing pen. Yes, it's extremely accurate. And the pen ain't cheap.[:@]

How much is 30 hours worth?
I scratch build and generally from my own "builders" plans. However, I have and would purchase plans and sometimes short kits. Unfortunately as it may be, and for others that may do this, understand and realize how time consuming this method is. Did someone say ARF?

Building, we enjoy it! I would rather build than fly. I will enjoy putting in the time to make my gear. Look what I will have if I live long enough to complete them.[:@]

30 hours? I have almost 2K hours in the left seat as Pilot in command. 377 of those hours were in a Lake LA4-200T. This happens over a lifetime and you don't even know it's happening.

I'll do the 30 maybe 20 hours, if I'm lucky, in my spare time, over a period of time.

"Bit by bit my Citizens, bit by bit."

A line from the Movie Seabiscuit and a quote from Shakespeare.

What about those "Jugs?" anyone got the info on those radials?

Must I do everything!

Charles
Old 03-22-2009, 11:59 PM
  #221  
Donairplane
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Default RE: Grumman Widgeon

Hi, What is the N number on the blue widgeon? Maybe able to find the owner and ask all kinds of questions. I still think the 1/5 scale widgeon is the right size. I have a full size van, no problem to haul and a 1700 sq. ft. shop. Besides cowls should be large enough for a pair of round engines. WHAT A SOUND!! Thanks Don.
Old 03-23-2009, 07:07 AM
  #222  
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Default RE: Grumman Widgeon

Donairplane,

Thanks for the reply,

Good idea on the N number. Nothing like pestering the owner for measurements he probably won't take with accuracy, or will fall off a ladder in the process.

Don, you have the Mystery Ship also. I think we talked in another Thread. I have Fred's 1/4 scale Mystery Ship. Still a long wat to go on it.

Charles
Old 03-23-2009, 10:09 AM
  #223  
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Default RE: Grumman Widgeon

Here's another picture of a Widgeon.
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Old 03-23-2009, 01:26 PM
  #224  
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Default RE: Grumman Widgeon

We pay for that so those guys can play.

Charles
Old 03-23-2009, 02:00 PM
  #225  
PeterC
 
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Default RE: Grumman Widgeon

Yea, but I would sooner support guys playing with airplanes than guys playing with a ball.
Peter

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