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Grumman Widgeon

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Old 03-04-2005, 01:22 PM
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Ed_Moorman
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Default Grumman Widgeon

Here's the latest seaplane project from my flying buddy, Carl "Flaps" Laffert. Flaps scratch built it from plans. He found and enlarged from some old control line plans, then he re-designed the construction for RC.

Power: 2 Magnum .52 4-strokes
Finish: Ultracote in Coast Guard colors like the one in the Navy Air Museum in Pensacola.

Ready to test in a couple of weeks after it warms up some more.

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Old 03-04-2005, 02:03 PM
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IFlySlowPlanes
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Default RE: Grumman Widgeon

Real nice! Stupid question...are those wheels actually retractable or are they just painted on the hull?
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Old 04-29-2005, 10:24 PM
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I designed and built the first ever RC Grumman Widgeon in 1967. (See Sept 1968 Flying Models Magazine for the construction article -- I think that they still sell my plans.) Won first in flying scale at Brimfield, Mass in 1968. It was about 1/7 scale, two Enya 60's.

Now have a 1/4 scale Widgeon from G&P fiberglass/foam kit. Originally designed by Al Franklin of Gig Harbor, Wash. Two Ryobi 31cc weed trimmer gas engines, 50 lb. 10 ft. span. Won pilot's choice award at the Lake Havasu float fly. My wheels are dummies, but Robart sells a complete scale retract system for the plane.

I have flown this 1/4 scale at several float flies in Southern california, as well as Lake Shuswap in British Columbia and Lake Havasu.
It originally had the Coast Guard color scheme. Everyone building the 1/4 scale was using those colors, so, after an unplanned very hard landing, repainted with a color scheme of a Widgeon at Chino Airport.
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Old 04-29-2005, 10:35 PM
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Default RE: Grumman Widgeon

Great looking Widgeon. I need motivation to finish my Mr G's widgeon. I sure wished the kit manufacturer had worked out some of the details such as attaching the nacels to the wing and setting incedences. I followed the lines on the fibreglass moulding but it looks like I have too much negative incedence in the stab. Post more pictures guys, keep me moving.
Thanks for the jolt.
Peter
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Old 04-30-2005, 12:46 AM
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Default RE: Grumman Widgeon

Try http://www.jagengines.com/oscart.htm for more details on my quarter scale Widgeon. One photo there shows the nacelle internal structure, which is a plywood box notched into the foam wing leading edge. I used the same approach on my old 1967 1/7 scale, which also had a foam wing. I used the scale wing incidence, about 2-1/2 degrees, but not the scale upthrust of another 2-1/2 degrees. You can see in the picture that the engines point down relative to the wing, probably at 0 degrees to the reference line or tail. Each box contains the firewall, engine mount, fuel tank, CH ignition module, ignition battery, flap servo and throttle servo.

Water taxiing steering is via differential throttle, linked to the rudder stick. The outboard engine on the turn would speed up. It turned on a dime with no water rudder. This was turned off for flight.
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Old 05-01-2005, 10:33 AM
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Your engine mounting is excellent; my problem is that the firewalls are already on the moulded nacells and there is no structure except the fibreglass moulding to support the weight of the engines. Maybe just a lot of trial and error fitting will do it. This is the type of stuff that makes a good kit worth the bucks.
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Old 05-01-2005, 10:57 AM
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Default RE: Grumman Widgeon

Has anyone built this one? (RCM, March 1993. Irwin Ohlsson.)

I'm starting to appreciate the Widgeon's suitability for an RC subject. Especially like the inverted inline engines for a scale appearance.
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Old 05-02-2005, 12:03 AM
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If you compare the Ohlsson Widgeon to the Paul Matt 3-view, you will see that it is not at all scale. All I can say is that these "stretched" Widgeons probably fly better than a scale one, but what is the point? I sent for the plan, but was disgusted with the design, so did not build it. It seems like any flying boat with inverted engines is called a "Widgeon", like some people call any light plane a "Piper Cub". Joe Bridi built a couple of 1/4 scale "Widgeons" recently, which had similar departures from scale.

The Ohlsson "Widgeon has an elongated fuselage, not scale, with rounded corners, not scale. The nacelles have sexy louvers, not scale, and appear to be too close together. I could go on, but again, what's the point?
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Old 05-02-2005, 12:11 AM
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Default RE: Grumman Widgeon

Yes, the G&P 1/4 scale short kit is worth the bucks, about 1200 of them. You can order it as a "Super Widgeon" conversion, with the flat four nacelles, or as the classic original Widgeon with the inverted Ranger inverted inline nacelles. My molded nacelles are treated as a non-structural covering or cowling, over the plywood box, which is the load-bearing structure.

Your nacelle would probably come out lighter, if you can make it work.
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Old 05-02-2005, 12:20 AM
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Default RE: Grumman Widgeon

Guys,

What would you think of the big G&P Widgeon with Super Tiger 4500s for power ??? Lighter than gassers, more powerfull than gassers. I don't care that they'd cost more to run with the nitro, and would'nt run as long on a tank. My problem is, i really don't like gasser engines (now don't flame me on that, it's just my opinion), but i would really like to model this plane in the future, so i'm trying to figure out if theirs an engine option other than gas ?????????
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Old 05-02-2005, 11:02 AM
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Default RE: Grumman Widgeon

I have agonized a lot over this question. There are a lot of considerations.

1. Light weight engines are good, but you need to keep the tail feathers light, else you will be adding lots of lead to the nose. My original 1/4 scale Widgeon crashed due to flap stall, and the fellow who helped me rebuild used the G&P foam tail feathers and lots of heavy fiberglass and primer. He also arranged things so that I had to put the elevator servos in the tail, hence the rebuild needed more nose ballast in the nose, and it came out six pounds heavier than my first effort, which had built-up balsa tail feathers, and pre-painted Coverite on the wing and tail.

2. I don't think you need an ST4500. The ST3250 sells for $199, and would be more than adequate power. Reliability is another story. I definitely would have on-board glow drivers for reliable idle, and, as you probably know, ST carburetors have a bad reputation, most people replacing them with OS carbs. And any inverted glow engine can suffer the glow plug going out. What you don't want is one engine failing in a twin. The Ryobi's were OK for the 44 pound first try, but the 50 pounder is a bit underpowered. They turn a 16-8 Master Airscrew prop at about 8000 RPM. Bill Price's even heavier Widgeon is underpowered with G38s. I did some bench tests recently, as follows:



JAG Ryobi 31cc, 16-8 Master Airscrew prop, 87 unleaded, 30/1 oil, 8000 rpm, Control-now in Widgeon

Super Tigre 3000, 18-8 Master Airscrew Classic, Performance Plus 15%, 9200 rpm, Perry Carb, custom muffler

OS BGX-1 3500, 18-8 Master Airscrew Classic, Performance Plus 15%, 9700 rpm, No Muffler, well-used

As you can see, even the ST 3000 has much more power than the Ryobi. The ST3250 would be even better, probably as good as the OS, although not tested here. If you can afford them, I would go with the OS BGX-1 3500, a real stump-puller, and reliable as they come.

3. I used the gas engines because they start easily, love to run inverted and are reliable as anything. Also they are very thrifty with fuel, 16 oz. tanks last almost a half hour. This saves weight, as well as cost. The Ryobi's have the carb and muffler behind the cylinder, so they fit nicely into the Widgeon cowls, without even the spark plug showing. Most gas engines have the muffler and/or the carb sticking out the sides of the cylinder. If you do go with gas, consider the new Evolution 52 from Horizon Hobby, or the Revolution 52 from Bisson. Both have less stuff sticking out the sides.

4. Another recent candidate is the new Saito 220, the largest single-cylinder 4-stroker. It should have power to spare.
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Old 05-02-2005, 06:08 PM
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I have to agree with ellysbro on choice of motors; not that I think gas is the way to go but that a ST 3000/3250 would be a better choice. I have a ST 4500 and it must be heavier than a lot of the smaller gas engines. Also with the engines in nacelles closer to the CG a llighter engine is not so bad as you are going to need nose ballast anyway so you may as well put it way up front where it will do some good. The ST 4500 is really a massive hunk of metal and probably way too powerful for realistic flying. Regarding the ST carb I have been running a stock one for years and have had no trouble with it. I always thought the guys put a OS carb on because it was bigger and gave more power. Mine will idle so slowly that you can almost count the revolutions. It also has a bad habit of starting and running backwards almost as well as forwards. Shades of baby bees!
I gave similar advice many moods ago regarding the Ohlson Widgeon; how it could be considered scale is beyond me.
Good thread here, let's hear from others.
Peter
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Old 05-02-2005, 10:23 PM
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Default RE: Grumman Widgeon

I have an ST3000, which was used in a Stream Schneider Sport 320 Schneider Racer. We had to take a bushing out of the carburetor to get some power out of it. I think they used the ST4500 carb and resticted it so the ST3000 would idle better. I wound up with a Perry Carb. We also removed the head gasket and opened up the muffler somewhat.

See http://www.stits.com/store/page15.html for more on the G&P Widgeon kit, and more pics of my plane.

Joe Bridi used two G62s in his 1/4 scale. Serious overpower!

I have uploaded some pics of the full scale Widgeon, hangared at Chino Airport, whose color scheme I used.. The happy guy is me. Also some not so hot pics of Bridi's Widgeon.
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Old 05-03-2005, 11:42 AM
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Default RE: Grumman Widgeon

Peter,

I have flown my Widgeon for a couple of years now, at the Fall Lake Shuswap float fly at Salmon Arm, B.C. Best float-fly I have attended! The picture with the new paint job was taken on the beach there.
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Old 05-03-2005, 07:05 PM
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Default RE: Grumman Widgeon

elleysbro; I'm closer to Salmon Arm than you are and I just haven't found the time to get thereyet. I hear it's great, maybe this fall. I'm taking some time off my part time job to enjoy life a bit more. This retirement sucks, I'm busier than ever. If I get there you'll recognize me by my Northstar and maybe a Grumman Widgeon.
I love seaplanes!
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Old 05-03-2005, 10:20 PM
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Default RE: Grumman Widgeon

Great, Peter,

I may bring my Balsa USA 1/3 scale Ercoupe on floats this year, if we go, which depends on the gasoline prices. Our motor home gets 7 miles per gallon, and we use 600-700 gallons on that trip. See the thread on that kit for more on it.
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Old 05-04-2005, 10:17 AM
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Default RE: Grumman Widgeon

7 miles per gallon isn't too great but on the positive side you get 10 miles per gallon in Canada (bigger gallons). Seriously though, as you know we sell gasoline by the litre which is about equal to a US quart and our prices are pushing $1.00/litre. It makes it pretty expensive for anyone wanting to travel.
Ercoupe sounds great but I still like twins (or quads).
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Old 05-04-2005, 12:12 PM
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Peter,

Gasoline has always been more expensive in Canada, so we always fill up just before crossing the border, and we generally make it back without having to buy much gas in Canada. It is a little bit of a mystery to me, because I thought that Canada had lots of natural resources, including oil. Not so? Maybe it is the taxes. The current high prices have not seemed to reduce float fly attendence here.

Oscar
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Old 05-05-2005, 07:41 PM
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Default RE: Grumman Widgeon

Actually the currency exchange makes it a bit more bearable. I drove down to SanFrancisco two years ago and didn't notice too much difference in cost per mile with exchange factored in.
I'm on a big push right now to get my new Northstar finished before the May 24 weekend. We have a big float fly up here that weekend. Our flying site is great. Last yeat we had 7 Northstars plus one 1.5 times Northstar. It's on our club website at www.ercs.ca follow the links if interested.
Cheers,
Peter
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Old 05-05-2005, 11:53 PM
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Hi Peter! Hi Oscar!! I see you guys have met....online at least.

Peter, you have to make at least one trip to Shuswap. If the weather is great, you will think you have died and gone to floatplane heaven...


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Old 05-06-2005, 10:47 PM
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Default RE: Grumman Widgeon

I thought that you might like to see my first cut at rigging the Balsa USA 1/3 scale Ercoupe with floats. I purchased the Balsa USA 1/3 scale EDO float kit, but I have not had the time to build them yet, so I used some Sea Commander 1/3 scale fiberglass EDO floats, with their strut and spreader bar hardware.

The design was based on the one full scale float-equipped Ercoupe prototype. The wings are a bit positive relative to the float top decks, about 1/4 inch in the 20 inch chord of the flat-bottom airfoil. It is very rigid, which I guess one would expect from three triangular trusses. With the small Ercoupe air rudders, I may add a vertical sub-fin under the tail for the initial test flights.

Don't forget the Riverside RC Club Float Fly at Lake Perris on May 21-22.
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Old 05-06-2005, 10:50 PM
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my upload did not work --- try again!
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Old 05-06-2005, 11:59 PM
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Default RE: Grumman Widgeon

Wow, that looks great!! Are yoiu planning to bring it to Shuswap if you go in Sept??? It will keep the giant Spacewalker company

So you still have the 1/3 cub?
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Old 05-07-2005, 01:07 AM
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Yes, I will bring it to Shuswap if I can afford the gasoline (for the motor home -- the G45 doesn't burn that much.)
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Old 05-07-2005, 01:11 AM
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Yes, I will bring the Cub, too. The Kavan FK50 in the Cub was slated for the Ercoupe, but I was having so much fun flying the Cub, that I couldn't bring myself to "bulb-snatch" it, so I bought the G45, which Balsa USA used in the prototype.
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