Afrikakorps

Hi everyone,
I have a battle question as much as an electronics question.

I am converting my Matorro/Taigen Sturmtiger to run Tamiya electronics and so far everything has gone well.
I am using Tamiya tiger 1 electronics, MFU 01 and DMD with Taigen 4:1 gearboxes.

My question is: does the positioning /orientation of the Tamiya battle unit matter ?
Is there a certain requirement for it to be "legal" to battle at Danville or any other large meetings ?

I have seen a pic that shows the angles that the receiver will take hits, but with a rotating turret this may not matter.
However, without a turret, ie: an assault gun/ tank destroyer, this may have a lesser chance of a scoring hit than from the non direct angles. I hope I have explained myself.
The angle concept makes sense to me.

I look forward to any replies.

Cheers
Akrikakorps

Crius

Different clubs have different rules, but for turretless tanks most clubs allow what they call "Tamiya Full Frontal Armor". Mount it as it's shown in the photos, with the LEDs at the corners, and if you want to go to TFFA you can make a small mod to the mirror to switch back and forth, or some clubs allow turretless tanks to place a strip of electrical tap across the front of the fins on the apple, to represent the fact that very few allied tanks could penetrate the frontal armor on a Sturmtiger.

Panther F

Yes, orientation of the Tamiya apple/base does matter. Look at this PDF using the Tiger I base in a Tamiya turret:

https://www.tamiyausa.com/pdf/manuals/53447ml.pdf

After that, it really depends on the groups rules whether any modifications can be altered from this point on.



HTH



Jeff

borealis

Or just rotate the TBU 45° to be frontally invulnerable from the distance, but not from close hits.

Panther F

One of the other issues is that the Sturmtiger vehicle is not recognized as an IR battle tank. So if you want to use it as an IFA option, a removable piece of tape covering the frontal area of the apple would work but still mounting the base in its legal position.

I say this as you did mention it possibly playing at Danville where it really depends on the group hosting the event. Generally the museum will run RCACN rules or "Fun Runs" where the rules are more relaxed.




Jeff

TheBennyB

At Danville we allow the Sturmtiger to be TFA but NOT IFA as the JagdTiger is sometimes allowed depending on hosting club.

Panther F

Out of curiosity (not that I have a horse in this race or a beef on the rules) but just for conversation purposes only, why wouldn't the Jagdtiger ALWAYS be considered an IFA when it and the Elefant are the only 2 that are even close to that category... as per said rules. The Sturmtiger would be a stretch (even as a heavy tank) but I know the host has the final word. I believe it's good to have a balance of these vehicles because they did exist in limited numbers of course.


I know you belong to and participate in a club (and have been involved in conversations of rules and what is allowed) PLUS have been to Danville more than the rest of us so that's why I ask someone who has more experience.


I do hope to be there this Memorial Day weekend. (no Sturmtiger of course)




Jeff

TheBennyB

For the most part IFA came about as the JT was believed to have never been taken out by a tank through the front. It's not necessarily because of armor thickness. So the only tank even considered for IFA is the JT. For the most part IFA isn't played much anymore, the novelty has worn off and most operators know how to get vectors and maneuver around it to take it out. Dont see many JT's at Danville either. TFA is bad enough allowing for a tank to be defensive and be on target to fire at the same time essentially making that tank IFA up to 10' anyways.

Jeff489

My Feedback: (12)

To my knowledge and recollection, invulnerable ("IFA") rules apply to any tank without a turret in most of the rc tank combat clubs in the Western half of the US. It started there in 2007 with the Jagdtiger, but was quickly expanded for use by any turret-less tank as a means to encourage people to build and run turret-less AFV's at a battle. IFA represents a conscious trade-off between playablity vs. realism. Like most rules, arguments exist for and against its use.

In practice, an IFA tank still receives frontal hits at distances of < 1 meter, because we've observed that the IR light "leaks" through the LED lights of the apple (despite the tape on the fins) at point blank range, and triggers the IR sensors. As to the battle characteristics, we have observed that an IFA tank seems to be a force multiplier of about 3 (meaning, an IFA tank is equal to about 3 tanks of the same class). The front 90 degrees of the apple is taped over purposely as it distinctively "advertises" to all that the tank is IFA equipped.

TheBennyB

Interesting on the "bleeding" through the led's Jeff. My observations have always been the IR gets close enough to register more from the lower "shiny" ring on the apple housing under the fins to register. Either way it's good to occasionally bring this topic up if more and more folks want to get interested in IR battling and the electronic loop holes you can learn to not be cannon fodder. At one point I believe R(can't) wanted to make a national standard on club rules in these areas. NO JOY if you ask me. Local clubs should run how they see fit to themselves and possibly modify if they want to ever visit a big venue such as Danville which still takes into consideration that not every operator may know the tank inspection criteria. ALWAYS a first visit mulligan within reason.

Jeff489

My Feedback: (12)

As to the "leaking", I tested several apples, both Tamiya and Impact. I used masking tape, electrical tape and aluminum foil tape. I started by taping one of the prisms of the pyramid shaped mirror, and worked from there. With the entire top of the apple taped (tape was flush with the top of the LEDs), we were still getting hits. Thus, our resulting opinion that the LEDs were the only place an IR signal could be entering the apple body from.

We also found that the Impact apples were slightly more sensitive than the Tamiya ones.

Crius

That's interesting about the impact Apples, because my experience has been the opposite. I have an impact apple on my tiger one, which is Taigen, running on an IBU 2 with the impact Apple and when you set it next to a Tamiya King Tiger and shoot at it from across the field with another tank only the King Tiger will register a hit. My Tiger 1 seems to be invulnerable at a distance. Not sure why that is but I'd sure like to figure it out, because you should hear those guys whine about it. That's the main reason I've been considering buying a Tamiya tank, just so that no one can complain I have an unfair Advantage because of aftermarket equipment.

Jeff489

My Feedback: (12)

I tested both battle units on the same tank (i.e. manually plugging and unplugging them from the MF unit), and used the same Tamiya tank to shoot them with (trying to reduce all variables but for the battle unit).