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counter rotating brushless motors?

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Old 10-25-2009, 07:57 AM
  #1
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Default counter rotating brushless motors?

If I was to buy to 2Velineon VXL-3m Brushless Power System(http://www.buytraxxas.com/product_in...oducts_id=3321) Can I make one counter rotating by simply changing the wiring (abc, cba)

I am new to the brushless motor systems, so I have no Idea.


Quick reason why.

I have a Traxxas Villain IV and the ESC blew. So I wanted to upgrade to the new Villain EX gear, but thought, why stop their, and go for brushless. I could run 2 sets of 6 cell packs, and have 2 14.4 volt brushless motors screaming away. I already have upgraded shafts to accept octra props so I can change those out as needed for the new power as well.

Any thoughts? I could also just add another gear to 1 side to get the counter rotation needed. But I would rather do it by turning the motor the other direction.


Thanks.

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Old 10-25-2009, 08:46 AM
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Default RE: counter rotating brushless motors?

try plugging the battery negative wire to positive terminal of the motor and do same with the positive connect to negative, it should turn reverse.
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Old 10-25-2009, 09:00 AM
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Default RE: counter rotating brushless motors?

Simple as swapping the motor wires around to the speed controller. Red to Black, Black to Red. Till the motor spins the opposite direction just as Wave waker had stated!
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Old 10-25-2009, 09:10 AM
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Default RE: counter rotating brushless motors?

forgive my ignorance, but does a brushless motor simply have a positive and negative wire? Brushless motors have three wires, is one a reference/rpm type sensor and the other 2 positive and negative?

these wires are white blue and yellow. So do I just guess as to witch is witch? I would really like to know what the 3 wires do in all brushless motors.

I also assume you can not reverse the positive and negative going into the ESC as it would not function, and probably get fired. But I don't know.
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Old 10-25-2009, 09:23 AM
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Default RE: counter rotating brushless motors?

Hi i had this problem on a ez run brushless just swap any of the two wires around try putting the white to blueand the blue to white from the motor that should work if it don't try swapping other wires it will work.
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Old 10-25-2009, 09:30 AM
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Default RE: counter rotating brushless motors?

I did a little reading on good old wikipedia, and know I have a good understanding of what is going on with the three wires. I guess it will just be a matter of experimentation switching the wires around till I get it to spin backwards.

Thanks guys. Now I just need to find some money.
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Old 10-25-2009, 11:31 AM
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Default RE: counter rotating brushless motors?

Any 2 wires of the 3, reversed will reverse motor direction.
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Old 10-25-2009, 03:38 PM
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Default RE: counter rotating brushless motors?

Do yourself a favor and possibly save yourself a bunch of time and money and read my thread. I have since gone to straight shaft to further the upgrade.............i love it runs great, and fast!! Dual brushless is an overkill gimmick, not needed in light of the fact that the stock titans are putting out 380 watts together and one brushless 540 size motor about 800. The flexdrive single motor setup was my second attempt (in the thread) and the final is in the pics below...........i added a picture of the completely squirrelly WAAAAy overpowered dual brushless setup just to make sure you didnt think i was telling a story.

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_90...tm.htm#9000667
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Old 10-25-2009, 05:45 PM
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Default RE: counter rotating brushless motors?

They are the same as a 3 phase motor. Swap any 2 to reverse rotation as was stated before.
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Old 10-27-2009, 11:28 AM
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Default RE: counter rotating brushless motors?

rebuilder, thanks so much for the info.

I too find the villain to be such a stable boat. I also have a Nitro V and hate tinkering with the motor for 30 minutes every time I want to run it. So I figured I would toss that and beef up the electric until I save up for a gas boat. Maybe I will just go with duel brushed motors, or a single brushless into the 2 out drives. I don't want to race it or anything, I just don't like having to go full throttle all the time, I would like it to cruse fast at about 3/4, and then freak me out a bit when I pin it. Maybe to much power is what I need!

Well, back to he planing board. Thanks again every one for the info.
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Old 11-10-2009, 06:31 PM
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Default RE: counter rotating brushless motors?

ok, so after too much thinking I have another idea and would love a little input. I will leave the Villan with the stock brushed motors and just replace the ESC with another one. My kids can drive it that way (if they ever care to)

So, like I said, I have a nitro V. It was fun because it was faster, a little squirrelly sometimes, but fun to run when you finally got it going. What about swapping that over to an electric? Run a brushless motor in it maybe?

I would keep the outdrive (I know they suck) and just swap in a new electric motor. Bad idea? or good idea? To put the project in perspective, I have never built a boat or even modded one, so I want to keep this simple, and cheap.

any recommendations? (motor, ESC, prop) these are the specs from traxxas;
Hull Type Offshore Deep "V"
Dead Rise Angle 22 Degrees
Hull Length 31 Inches (787mm)
Beam 8.5 Inches (216mm)
Weight 60oz (1.7kg)
Draft 4.5 Inches (114mm)
Speed Control Type N/A
Engine TRX Pro.15 Nitro
Drive System Direct Drive
Outdrive Adjustable Surface-Piercing



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Old 11-10-2009, 08:11 PM
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Default RE: counter rotating brushless motors?

it would be a lot easyer to convert a nitro vee to electric b/c of the singel drive . but ti steep it up for better handleing i would do a sepret drive stinger and rudder .
check out qiucksilver he did a 700sc powered villain .
heres the build thread http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_65...tm.htm#6570320

heres some vid look close some are jet villain http://www.youtube.com/user/quicksiler
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Old 11-10-2009, 08:13 PM
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Default RE: counter rotating brushless motors?

You can upgrade the motor to the Traxxas Titan Marine motor. It's the same motor used on the Villian EX, as far as the esc goes, just get a cheap brushed esc. I don't see the point in spending 100.00 bucks on the Traxxas EVX 2 esc. Pretty pricy IMO, whereas you can get 2 brushed esc for 40.00 and save yourself some cash to get the prop kit upgrade from OSE (Offshore Electric). They are out of stock at the moment. But the kit is around 50.00. Hope this helps. I just picked up a used Villian IV for my son and have gutted the MSC. I will keep the stock motors till they die on me and maybe upgrade to the Titans later. But I am definitely going to upgrade the esc.

http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/s...idProduct=6468

http://www.offshoreelectrics.com/pro...p?prod=dh-1585

http://www.offshoreelectrics.com/pro...traxxaspropkit

Quote:
ORIGINAL: NobodyFamous

ok, so after too much thinking I have another idea and would love a little input. I will leave the Villan with the stock brushed motors and just replace the ESC with another one. My kids can drive it that way (if they ever care to)

So, like I said, I have a nitro V. It was fun because it was faster, a little squirrelly sometimes, but fun to run when you finally got it going. What about swapping that over to an electric? Run a brushless motor in it maybe?

I would keep the outdrive (I know they suck) and just swap in a new electric motor. Bad idea? or good idea? To put the project in perspective, I have never built a boat or even modded one, so I want to keep this simple, and cheap.

any recommendations? (motor, ESC, prop) these are the specs from traxxas;
[img][/img]
Hull Type Offshore Deep ''V''
Dead Rise Angle 22 Degrees
Hull Length 31 Inches (787mm)
Beam 8.5 Inches (216mm)
Weight 60oz (1.7kg)
Draft 4.5 Inches (114mm)
Speed Control Type N/A
Engine TRX Pro.15 Nitro
Drive System Direct Drive
Outdrive Adjustable Surface-Piercing



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Old 11-10-2009, 08:22 PM
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Default RE: counter rotating brushless motors?

heres a bl motor http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/s...hless_Inrunner
and heres a esc http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/s...es_90-100A_ESC
its really easy to water prof and cool . just get a sv27 esc cooling plate or i thank ose also has one you can add . and use two part epoxy to seal the board
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Old 11-10-2009, 09:07 PM
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Default RE: counter rotating brushless motors?

just a quick reminder, it's the nitro V I am going to convert, not the Villain, though it is pretty much the same hull. Just 2 degrees flatter DRA and 0.25" wider Beam.

Does anyone know what a comparative electric (kv) motor would be to the nitro .15? Just so I know what would be the same/slower/faster.

Thanks for the info so far.
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Old 11-11-2009, 12:01 AM
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Default RE: counter rotating brushless motors?

Sorry, I was under the impression you were going to upgrade the Villain IV from your first post. Didn't realize you were going the conversion route from Nitro to Amps. I'll go away now!


Quote:
ORIGINAL: NobodyFamous

just a quick reminder, it's the nitro V I am going to convert, not the Villain, though it is pretty much the same hull. Just 2 degrees flatter DRA and 0.25'' wider Beam.

Does anyone know what a comparative electric (kv) motor would be to the nitro .15? Just so I know what would be the same/slower/faster.

Thanks for the info so far.
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Old 11-11-2009, 06:53 AM
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Default RE: counter rotating brushless motors?

I did the converson and came up with 633 watts .. and that going high with and estamated output of .85 hp . what kinda voltage will you be running so u can find out what amp range thats in ?

heres a converter to find out and to let you play with it . iwould say you would need a 36mm bl motor or 700 brushed to get it up and going good . but a 540 brushed motor would probly be pushing this hull at a scale speed .
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Old 11-11-2009, 08:29 AM
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Default RE: counter rotating brushless motors?

I see mention of brushless and I just went to BIGGER brushless in my already brushless single drive villain. I have on the way, this esc, which IS watercooled, the one mentioned earlier is not, this seems like a BIG bargain at $69 for 120a:

http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/s...hless_Boat_ESC

Heres the motor i have comin' 12XL:

http://www.offshoreelectrics.com/pro...prod=fei-540XL
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Old 11-11-2009, 12:02 PM
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Default RE: counter rotating brushless motors?

rebuilder, you are crazy, how many times you gonna` do and re-do that boat?

I like the idea of going big right away, but I don't want to waste my money on extra speed I can't use due to the hull limitations.

As far as voltage goes, I would run twin 6 cell packs (14.4) or twin 2s LiPo's (16.8) Right away I will run Nimh, but would love to upgrade to Lipo's when I get more money. So 50 amps should do.

Based on that, how would I pick a motor that puts out about 633 watts.


DRAGONFIRE81M, is 0.85 hp just a random guess or do you have a source? for my own curiosity.
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Old 11-11-2009, 12:55 PM
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Default RE: counter rotating brushless motors?

well i was going a little high traxxes doesnt post hp rateings on there engines . but os does . i do know a .15 os puts out arpound .65 -.75 and a .18 os puts out around 1.35 hp . so yes its a good wild guess . know that i said that i have ran a .18 os in mine and it was still controlable . but when i went to a .26 big block thats when things got crazy . and my the way the big block put out around 2.50 hp with a tuned pipe
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Old 11-11-2009, 01:50 PM
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Default RE: counter rotating brushless motors?

Quote:
ORIGINAL: NobodyFamous

rebuilder, you are crazy, how many times you gonna` do and re-do that boat?

I like the idea of going big right away, but I don't want to waste my money on extra speed I can't use due to the hull limitations.

As far as voltage goes, I would run twin 6 cell packs (14.4) or twin 2s LiPo's (16.8) Right away I will run Nimh, but would love to upgrade to Lipo's when I get more money. So 50 amps should do.

Based on that, how would I pick a motor that puts out about 633 watts.


DRAGONFIRE81M, is 0.85 hp just a random guess or do you have a source? for my own curiosity.
well there is a reason to my madness, I wanted brushless so I used what I had available at the time, the stock outdrive and the stock mount/gear reduction unit. The stock outdrive was crap so i went to straight shaft....that's logical. Now the castle 4600 melts the spur gear every 10 runs so that wasn't a good set up, so now I'm going to a real boat setup to make it right........direct drive. Do you see the order here...........I will post it with vids for all to see when I'm done with the new motor and esc. I realize I don't owe anyone an explainaion but I'm just tellin you because there is a story to everything, plus I sold the 4600 and a sw combo for $100 and recouped most of the $$.
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Old 11-11-2009, 04:16 PM
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Default RE: counter rotating brushless motors?

ok, thanks for all the info.

How would I go about determining what motor I would want to run? What does kv mean? (kilovolt?) and how do I match it to a prop? (a link to an article would be nice)

I am decided I want to run brushless, and will start out with 12 cell, but would like to switch up to 4s. I would assume I can use the same prop and ESC if I set up for 4s, and the motor will just gain RPM and speed with the LiPos when I get them.

I should also say I have an upgraded octura shaft and prop in the Nitro V (and the villain)
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Old 11-11-2009, 06:27 PM
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Default RE: counter rotating brushless motors?

KV is kilovolt, what the motor spins at with 1 volt input..........i'll share my 29" boat setup with you as it may be kinda what you're aiming for. Its a cen aquajet.........direct drive. I installed a Feigao 540 13L (1890kv) and i run it on 4s. Its one of my boats that i havent had to tinker with much........i love the setup. Its putting out about 750 watts and i run it with an x440. It is very fast...........almost too fast, i have to be careful not to "gun" it sharply or it wants to twist and flip. It never runs hot.........barely even warm. I use an aquacraft 60a esc..........very good esc in my opinion, completely sealed and waterproof. You may want to consider in this kv range.......the 540L comes in 11L, 12L, 13L, in 5mm shafts.....one of those may work for you. BTW, i ran my new villain setup by Steve Vaccaro at offshore electrics and he thought it would be a good application, the 12XL on 6s..........cant wait.............I buy my feigao motors and props from him, he's very helpful.

Heres some pics of the aquajet setup, check out the insanely low temps after a good 5 minute run, ESC 76.5, motor 82!!!
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Old 05-05-2010, 12:20 PM
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Default RE: counter rotating brushless motors?


Quote:
ORIGINAL: NobodyFamous

ok, so after too much thinking I have another idea and would love a little input. I will leave the Villan with the stock brushed motors and just replace the ESC with another one. My kids can drive it that way (if they ever care to)

So, like I said, I have a nitro V. It was fun because it was faster, a little squirrelly sometimes, but fun to run when you finally got it going. What about swapping that over to an electric? Run a brushless motor in it maybe?

I would keep the outdrive (I know they suck) and just swap in a new electric motor. Bad idea? or good idea? To put the project in perspective, I have never built a boat or even modded one, so I want to keep this simple, and cheap.

any recommendations? (motor, ESC, prop) these are the specs from traxxas;
[img][/img]
Hull Type Offshore Deep ''V''
Dead Rise Angle 22 Degrees
Hull Length 31 Inches (787mm)
Beam 8.5 Inches (216mm)
Weight 60oz (1.7kg)
Draft 4.5 Inches (114mm)
Speed Control Type N/A
Engine TRX Pro.15 Nitro
Drive System Direct Drive
Outdrive Adjustable Surface-Piercing





here ya go,


http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_88...tm.htm#8879619

i started out with the mamba monster 2200 on 4s and it was simply absurd. i later redid it with a traxxas vxl system on 3s, with an octura x447 its an amazing boat. run it with an 18 tooth pinion. its a blast. hope this helps
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Old 05-05-2010, 01:47 PM
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Default RE: counter rotating brushless motors?

in order to conter rotat brushless motors simpoly swap any two of the wires that power the motor. it wil change directions. thats all youll have to do
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