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MHZ Z-drives

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Old 10-24-2010, 02:59 PM
  #1
adrianojp
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Default MHZ Z-drives



Hello there,

all of you know the MHZ Z-drives and Speedmaster S6 Z-drives.
These are an expensive, but great option for scale and performance for our model gas boats.

This month I purchased two new Z-drives from MHZ Germany: will be using these parts for building my new Apache (Cigarette Racing 46' AMG replica), on the basis of the 58' hull from Mart in UK.

My objective with this thread is to collect your own experience with these drives, in order to give answers and pictures for many questions I frequently read in threads.
Also, your precious experiences could really help me do the best possible job in this build, I will not deny it!

The main questions floating around on these Z-drives are:
- what is the maximum power they can handle? Most say 1 modified Zen260 or RCMK Evo
- using these parts as surface drives: experiences on placing these drives higher or lower on the transom, in respect to the hull. (and how this influences handling)
- experiences (pictures and video PLEASE) using the Quicktrim option (servo actuated drive trim)
- possible modifications (reduction) to the upper flat surface on top of the propeller area.

Thank you if you will want to share your experiences on these parts- Cheers!

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Old 10-24-2010, 10:49 PM
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Default RE: MHZ Z-drives

one of the biggest things i do is keep fresh oil in the drive and make shure to top it up if needed before every run also you need strong servo s to keep them under control my S6 is mounted on a 57" Apache for long life i wouldent go much more than a mild mod engine torq kills these fast they tend to fail right after they unload then grab againe i will be putting an stock RCMK in mine this winter i find that once you get the drive angle set you don t have to touch it much unless going from flat calm to 8" 10" waves and then its onlyu tackes a few seconds to adjust the drive to the water conditions the trim system is cool bit i think it isn t needed a
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Old 10-25-2010, 12:41 AM
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Default RE: MHZ Z-drives

I have added some notes to each question

Quote:
ORIGINAL: adrianojp

The main questions floating around on these Z-drives are:
- what is the maximum power they can handle? Most say 1 modified Zen260 or RCMK Evo
These drives are built for single zenoahs. Anything more will translate to reduced life. They can be used with a Blata, Inline Zenoah etc - but it will translate into significantly shorter life. The gears in these drives are tiny and the contact area taking such forces and RPM are not going to last long


- using these parts as surface drives: experiences on placing these drives higher or lower on the transom, in respect to the hull. (and how this influences handling)
Locating the drives higher than recommended will likely lead to excessive cavitation. Mounting the drive too low will increase the likelihood of undesirable handling characteristics (particularly in cornering) plus additional drag with the large drive bulbs being subsurface. I believe the manufacturer recommends the point of the drive being 1/4" above the running surface. This is recommended for a good reason

- experiences (pictures and video PLEASE) using the Quicktrim option (servo actuated drive trim)
Quicktrim is more gimmicky or novelty than a requirement. Once the drive is properly trimmed you do not need to adjust - adjusting electronically is more expensive, more weight, more to go wrong and really no need. It adds some cool factor but it is money better spent on more props or other options. Not much to show - [link=http://imageevent.com/justaddwata/wareham5?p=11&n=1&m=-1&c=2&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=4]quick trim for the two drives is burried in the bilges behind the gearbox[/link]

- possible modifications (reduction) to the upper flat surface on top of the propeller area.
Not sure why you would want to modify or reduce the ride plate. You would only reduce the size if you wanted to turn a larger propeller and you would only need a larger propeller if you were powering the drive with more than it was designed to handle in the first place. Leave it stock and it will last for years - overpower it and you will be replacing overpriced drive more often than you would believe.
One of my boats had ride plate extensions added by the builder[link=http://imageevent.com/justaddwata/myboats/panamajack72mhzreckless/mhz72recklesspanamajack?p=50&n=1&m=-1&c=2&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=4] - but only for the purposes of adding water pickups[/link] - but only for the purposes of adding water pickups
As for checking oil every run - possibly before going to the pond but realistically the drives should not leak more than a drop of oil when in storage (and when in use). If your losing more oil than that you might be using too thin a viscosity oil. I second the opinion that plenty of servo power is needed for twin drives. I would aim for 300oz/in per drive as a minimum - the more the better as they wont need to work as hard.

On a side note - I would recommend taking a look at some build pictures that I got from one of the guys in Germany who does RTR builds and demo boats for MHZ - might give you some ideas for your build - http://imageevent.com/justaddwata/mo...ipsfromgermany
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Old 10-25-2010, 02:28 AM
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Default RE: MHZ Z-drives


Thank you for sharing your experience rcguy1411 , I will for sure keep the oil under control!

Just Add Wata: I have learnt so much by reading your posts around the forum. With this post you really ironed out all my doubts.
Also abig thank youfor being such an asset to this hobby. The pictures are fantastic!
<script type="text/javascript">titleAndStar(774,100,0,false,"","") Now, just a couple of things regarding your answers:

- Cavitation/Ride plates: I had initially thought to shorten and narrow them in order to let the water coming from the upper/surface part of the propeller to freely evacuate. I am aware of the fact that the plates should allow getting on a plane (and keeping it) at lower speeds, and also help reduce cavitation. Probably the performance increase isn't enough to counter balance the side effects.
By the way,ten years agoI mountedTHIS on the cavitation plate of a waterski powerboat we had (outboard 115hp), and it did help planefaster and cavitate less!
Maybe it could be something to look into!

- Quicktrim: I know it is a bit more weight (not much), but I love the idea of trimming the boat to the condition in real time. For sure I also love the cool effect!
I will be mainly running this boat from a big fast real boat in open sea, that is why I really want the model to be adaptable in real time.
I had a purpouse built 5000mah 6v battery pack in order not to worry about the number of powerful servos and services in the boat.
Problem is, MHZ Germany does not have these parts. It appears to be that MHZ USA has them, but they will not answer my enquiry emails!
So sourcing is becoming a problem, and I am waiting for the new drives to arrive, in order to see if I can build a similar system from scratch.
If anyone has a couple for sale, please pm me!

- The build: now I almost have all the parts: only missing the Gearbox (have decided to go with THIS 1:1 item with clutch) and the exhausts (have decided for the RCMK '260 tuned pipe+Sub Muffler').
I intend to take all winter to build this boat, as I am very precise and want it to be as close as possible to perfect. PLUS, I think that building is the part of the hobby I prefer!



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Old 10-25-2010, 11:00 PM
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Default RE: MHZ Z-drives

sorry my comment should have read every days run the quick trim is a cool thing for shure i belive that MHZ is looking for a new source for these drives that should be comming in the near fucture i hope i would like a few more myself with twin drives and a gearbox you will need to run an inline like the RCMK 520 or an inline zenoah as a single 26 cc won t turn two drives not enough torq the other option would be counter rotating twins and loose the gearbox might be tight fit in a 58 "hull but doable
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Old 10-26-2010, 01:13 AM
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Default RE: MHZ Z-drives

Yes, you are right: I already have it all, am using a NEW 2011 strong, watercooled crankcase RCMK S520 Evo, with gearbox and the two counter rotating (inside) Z-drives.
She will be fast... ;-)
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Old 10-27-2010, 01:35 PM
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Default RE: MHZ Z-drives

sounds like a fun project!!! keep us all posted. I have a pair on an Apache with a Blata and MHZ gear box...prop choice has been a bit of an enigma but getting it sorted now...that Apache likes it really rough to get it to air out...I would think the twin with the extra torque would be a nice application.

PICTURES!
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Old 10-29-2010, 05:50 AM
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Default RE: MHZ Z-drives


Quote:
ORIGINAL: FlogginHarvey

sounds like a fun project!!! keep us all posted. I have a pair on an Apache with a Blata and MHZ gear box...prop choice has been a bit of an enigma but getting it sorted now...that Apache likes it really rough to get it to air out...I would think the twin with the extra torque would be a nice application.

PICTURES!
Yes, these are great boats! Will post a build thread as soon as I am at a good stage.

TODAYS PROBLEM FROM MHZ:
Shirley answered me today, saying they are having problems with their new producer of Z-drives.
MHZ does not know when they will receive the shipment of new drives from their producer.
I bought (and paid) the drives a month ago, but never received them for this reason.
MHZ offered to refund me, or to wait an undefined period for the parts.

What are the options out there that would fit (scale) and perform well on my Waverider Apache in dual drive configuration? (JAW please advise!)
Before choosing the Z.drives, I had considered:
- WD200 Lenkstrut steerable
- WD200 Steerable stringers (maybe too long from transom to prop)
- MTC : various
- Trimax
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Old 10-29-2010, 08:23 AM
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Default RE: MHZ Z-drives


Quote:
ORIGINAL: FlogginHarvey

sounds like a fun project!!! keep us all posted. I have a pair on an Apache with a Blata and MHZ gear box...prop choice has been a bit of an enigma but getting it sorted now...that Apache likes it really rough to get it to air out...I would think the twin with the extra torque would be a nice application.

PICTURES!
No problems with my Apache hulls airing out m8 even with single motors,a cpl guys regularly hitting over 50 mph with zens fastest so far 56 with a 29 cc head kit on a zen .
JP sory to hear about your dilema with MHZ seems theyre quick enough to take the money though ,hope you find a decent alternative.
Mart
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Old 10-29-2010, 10:23 AM
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Default RE: MHZ Z-drives

Yes Mart,

quite a curious thing since they had forced me in to buying them as the supposed 'last ones' were arriving in those days (a month ago).
All the same, I am sure MHZ is in good faith: demonstrated by the fact that they offered to refund me a couple of times in this period. Sometimes suppliers suck...

Considering a couple of measurements, I think the best option will be the WD200 'Lenkstrut' steerable drives: simple and effective.

Want to hear everyone's advice before moving out though!
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Old 10-29-2010, 11:11 AM
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Default RE: MHZ Z-drives

I like these are these the ones your thinking of ?.
Mart
http://www.wd200-modellbau.de/?Antri...teerable_Drive
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Old 10-29-2010, 12:01 PM
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Default RE: MHZ Z-drives

No, in my advicethose ones are too long from transom to propeller for your hull. They are very nice drives though.

I am referring to these: http://www.wd200-modellbau.de/?Antri...ives:Lenkstrut
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Old 10-29-2010, 12:39 PM
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Default RE: MHZ Z-drives

i belive this is the drive Flogginharvey used on his 55" dumas hull (Miami Vice build) from the vidio i saw it ran verry well [link]http://www.wd200-modellbau.de/?Antriebe%2FDrives:Z-Drive%2FDirektantrieb[/link]this would be another option for you they look scale from a distance and i think would be alot less maintenance than the S6 drive you would only need to get a counter rotating flexshaftfound the link to his build [link]http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_8756371/anchors_8756371/mpage_1/key_/anchor/tm.htm#8756371[/link]
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Old 10-29-2010, 12:51 PM
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Default RE: MHZ Z-drives

Yup, they are nice, but the lengh of 183mm seems a bit too much for a 1500mm boat.
Wouldn't want a roughwaterApache that doesn't keep its bow up because of props too distant from the transom...
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Old 10-29-2010, 01:25 PM
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Default RE: MHZ Z-drives

i dont think there is much differance between the two drives as the MHZ S6 comemes in at 175 mm overall and the WD 200 drive at 185 mm overall 10mm difference could be in the length of the threaded part of the shaft and would not place the prop any farther back than the S6 also with the WD200 drive there would be a BIG savings in weight ask Trey(Flogginharvey) to get you a mesurment from transome to face of the prop and compare the two he has bolth drives im shure he wont mind he is a wealth of info and has beeen a big help to me (hope i didnt through you under the bus Trey)
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Old 10-29-2010, 01:25 PM
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Default RE: MHZ Z-drives

Quote:
ORIGINAL: rcguy1411

i belive this is the drive Flogginharvey used on his 55'' dumas hull (Miami Vice build) from the vidio i saw it ran verry well [link]http://www.wd200-modellbau.de/?Antriebe%2FDrives:Z-Drive%2FDirektantrieb[/link]this would be another option for you they look scale from a distance and i think would be alot less maintenance than the S6 drive you would only need to get a counter rotating flexshaftfound the link to his build [link]http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_8756371/anchors_8756371/mpage_1/key_/anchor/tm.htm#8756371[/link]

Hey, there is the build link I was trying to find! Thanks!!!

Yep, used the larger WD200 drive on that one. Werner's crafmanship and service is second to none. I have seen a couple builds Werner did the with smaller ones you posted a link to in a twin configuration and they worked great. On the larger drive, werner suggested I take the teflon stuffing tube liner all the way through the transom into the front of the drive to keep things clean on the transom and help keep water out of the drive line. Worked GREAT! You will want to use a very strong steering servo or each drive you use somehting around 250-300oz of torque EACH. Again, at Werner's suggestion. I used the Hitech equivlaent of Rhino Digi servo.

There is less maintenance on the steerable strut over the geared Z-Drive. You just inspect the drive shaft and grease as you would normally do on regular stinger or strut setup. Werner did absolutely suggest a square drive setup on the flex shaft at the collet end due to the inevitable shrikage the shaft will have under load and in turning. The bigger drive I ordered came with a stainless stub shaft and I used loctite 648 to affix the flex into the stub permanently. When you need to replace you just expose the shaft to prolonged heat and the loctite bond will let go. Pretty easy.

The Z-Drive was a little big for the Dumas Scarab sized hull to be correctly to scale but the Scarabs are about 20% smaller in volume (width and heighth) to an Apache hull. Just about the same size as a MHZ S6 drive for a comparison...I would think on an Apache the twin Z-Drives would be a good match.? The MHZ Z-Drives are certainly a good match on the 60" Apache I have...here are some pix:

...you didn't throw me under the bus!!! Quote the contrary. I am HAPPY to help! I had the same questions at some point when doing the builds on any of my hulls. We ALL start somewhere...and usually at the beginning!
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Old 10-29-2010, 02:16 PM
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Default RE: MHZ Z-drives

Thank you for your long post Harvey

I think that the best option among the known still is the Lenkstrut I stated before. I am searching for options that are not common, buget is not an issue.

Cheers,
AJ
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Old 10-29-2010, 08:05 PM
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Default RE: MHZ Z-drives

looking forward to your build hoppe everthing works out for your build
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Old 10-30-2010, 01:46 AM
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Default RE: MHZ Z-drives

Hope so RcGuy!
Thank you for your help, and please keep the suggestions coming!
Am out to a big model shop now, need some bits and bobs...
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Old 10-30-2010, 02:17 AM
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Default RE: MHZ Z-drives


Quote:
ORIGINAL: adrianojp

Yes, these are great boats! Will post a build thread as soon as I am at a good stage.

TODAYS PROBLEM FROM MHZ:
Shirley answered me today, saying they are having problems with their new producer of Z-drives.
MHZ does not know when they will receive the shipment of new drives from their producer.
I bought (and paid) the drives a month ago, but never received them for this reason.
MHZ offered to refund me, or to wait an undefined period for the parts.

What are the options out there that would fit (scale) and perform well on my Waverider Apache in dual drive configuration? (JAW please advise!)
Before choosing the Z.drives, I had considered:
- WD200 Lenkstrut steerable
- WD200 Steerable stringers (maybe too long from transom to prop)
- MTC : various
- Trimax
Think you have a good opportunity to explore other options than the "Z" drives. I personally would be looking at either the Werner (WD200) steerable drives or if you can wait for it possibly the new (should they ever finish it) steerable RCMK Arneson drive. I say should they ever finish it in jest - just that it was announced in January and still not finished - there will probably be teething issues once is is introduced too. The scale of the drive looks first class and I would say it would compliment your apache well. http://imageevent.com/justaddwata/morerc/info/rcmkdrive


The werner drives will be as problem free as any drive out there as theres really nothing to go wrong (other than perhaps over flexing the drive cable). The RCMK drives might be a little more sensitive to extreme power. I am not sure what the rating or life of that CV joint is or how much lateral loading the casting will handle at the bracket.


Only down side to using any of these options is that you would either not be counter rotating or would need to have motors counter rotated. (MHZ "Z" drives are very convenient in having the internal counter rotating option).

The MHZ "Z" and S6 drives are hard to beat in scale looks but their availability and long term service life takes some of the luster off that look. The non geared options are certainly looking better every day.
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Old 10-30-2010, 02:32 AM
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Default RE: MHZ Z-drives

Quote:
ORIGINAL: adrianojp

No, in my advice those ones are too long from transom to propeller for your hull. They are very nice drives though.

I am referring to these: http://www.wd200-modellbau.de/?Antri...ives:Lenkstrut
I dont think they are too long mate,a friend has been using a very long stinger on one of my hulls and it runs and handles very well,im not sure exactly how long the stingers is but its longer than anything else on the market so im sure these drives would be just fine.My guess is these stingers are arround the same length as those drives 7" or 185 mm ish,i can certainly find out.
Just for your information JP im also planning to run one of these drives on one of my hulls next year but i may wait till i see what rcmk come up with first .
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Old 10-30-2010, 02:40 AM
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Default RE: MHZ Z-drives

Hello JAW, and thank you for your beautiful post (as usual lol)!

I will be applying drives to the RCMK S520 with a WD200 'Gertribe 1' gearbox, that makes counter-rotating, so that problem is solved ;-)

Talking WD200, they have two options of steerable drives: the 'stinger/arneson' version and the 'Lenkstrut' version.
Looking at the drives and their sizes, I am a bit afraid that the propellers would be too far from the transom of my 1500mm Waverider Apache. What do you think?

I will also drop an email to Mr. Park, to see at what stage they are with their drives (that look beautiful). But, after more than a month waiting for the Z-drives, I am a bit over waiting...
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Old 10-30-2010, 02:50 AM
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Default RE: MHZ Z-drives

[/quote]

I dont think they are too long mate,a friend has been using a very long stinger on one of my hulls and it runs and handles very well[/quote]

well, this is a good piece of news Mart! It would be very helpful to understand how long this person's drives are to the propeller, so we can compare the WD arneson option!
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Old 10-30-2010, 03:49 AM
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No probs mate ill email him and find out the exact distance from transom to the prop hub,hes back from Holliday today i think.If i dont hear back later today ill give him a ring.
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Old 10-30-2010, 06:03 AM
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Thank you Mart!
I will be here waiting for the feedback!
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