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Old 09-19-2010, 06:36 AM
  #301
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Hi AJ sounds good mate,will you be getting a genuine Blata and is it 50 cc ? if so you might want to go with a 5/16 cable stepped down to a 1/4" shaft.I think this is what Tony at Viper hulls uses hed be a good guy to speak to about this setup.Id also stick to a stinger drive rather than a steerable one if going single prop as the steerable setups might not take the power for long.Im no expert just a few things i picked up reading through some posts about this setup.Heres a few pics of Tonys setup,give him a call or pm see what he suggests,another good guy to ask would be Matt aka justaddwatta .
Mart
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_96...tm.htm#9652644
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Old 09-19-2010, 08:10 AM
  #302
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Hi Mart, cos he is putting a Blata in it and as he says he will be crashing through waves put an extra layer of matting in were the engine rails fit or if you use core mat put a 1mm layer between the layers to stiffen it up.
Cheers Tony
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Old 09-19-2010, 09:53 AM
  #303
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I think you made the right choice dealing with Mart and ordering one of his hulls. I think that the blata requires a little extra space between the rails. At least the blata 39 from MHZ does.
Might be wise to confirm your rail spacing needs and pass the info on to Mart before he puts the stringers in. I don't think he'll get mad at you for it.
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Old 09-19-2010, 10:16 AM
  #304
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Hi Tony i think the layup im doing should be ok as my hulls are a bit above the everage layup,shes allready got a layer of tisue followed by a layer of 350 csm then 450 cloth and then a layer of carbon twill right where you say she may need it ,im putting arround24" of carbon in from transom usually but i suppose i could put it full length of the rails on this one which are 30" long.The hulls come out very rigid with no twist so i think it should be ok but may think about some corematt,theyre certainly stong as is but thanks for the heads up m8,any help you can offer as regards rail spacing or info for him regards anything else im sure we would both welcome it.Spoke to AJ earlier and we were discussing rail spacing,whats the norm with these beasts 6"?.I can do them any distance appart they need to be,will be starting it this week allready have the top done AJ .
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Old 09-19-2010, 11:17 AM
  #305
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: 209lakerunner

ive been looking and reading about all these apaches/scarabs and there all beautiful/customs..i love these boat the line and the way they lookin the water.. but my question is i bought a 1998 model 55''scarab with a 30cc cobra/homelite it runs good but want to pull out the motor and put in a zenoah 230 or 260 just need too know whats the diffrence between pum/puh and why do people ask for the numbers on the engine..im new too gas boating so this is why the ? and also if someone could tell me where too go for good shipping rate i have a chance too buy a 46'' scarab unbuilt with a zenoah 230pum it has everthing too build just needs radio/receiver and servos but has everthing else.the boat is in florida (brenton)and im in cali(stockton)just need the least inexpensive way possible thanks too everyone helping me...
Hey there, not an Apache, but I have built a couple of the Dumas Scarab 38KV's (55") with gas surfce drives and they seem to handle it pretty well. The big question mark I have for your boat is whether it is a semi-submerged setup with the stuffing tube out the bottom or a surface drive with a stinger or strut? The first I did was a old nitro conversion to gas with submerged setup and converted to a surface and the second was a NIB Scarab that I did a surface drive from the beginning (Speedmaster hardware all the way around). It is worth a mention that these old scarabs were designed around the less powerful nitro 67's and early homelite motors and have a ton of lift designed it as well as the hulls not being "true" at teh back. The BEST thing you can do it converting over to a more powerful motor is at least blue printing the hull and block sanding it so it it perfectly true and flat on teh back running surface. If you really want to get the hull dialed in you can actually take some of the strake out of the Scarabs to help settle them down when running the higher hp motors of today and keep the performance up in the process. Here are a couple vids on the two boats both powered by RCMK EVO motors. The Miami Vice boat (teh resto I did and drive conversion) is VERY heavy and I did not make any strake changes as a result. The KAAMA boat was one I started from scratch and it 10 punds ligher than the other so I figured it would be worth the work making the strake change and I am glad I did.

Miami Vice: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DCtZNWtIPc

KAAMA: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vz4dM06A4KM
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Old 09-19-2010, 11:25 AM
  #306
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Have fun with that new Apache and the Blata...the extra weight in the rough water will be GREAT for that boat. There was a Blata Mount setup for sale here on RCU last week...it might still be there if you are needing it. It is the MHZ one and looked just like what I have in mine. They are not 5", I do think 6" was what it ended up being but can check later this week if need be.

The 60" I have runs better the rougher it gets. I think you will have a blast!

CONGRATS!

Here are pix of motor and mounts:
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Old 09-19-2010, 11:27 AM
  #307
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Great job Mart, and thank you all for the support!

Yes, maybe a little reinforcement would not harm...

I asked Tony for a quote including all running gear. I also have a solution from MHZ.
The main difference is that Tony uses a bigger flex cable (5/16). Sounds like a wise thing to me, but again, why would a world-recknown builder like MHZ rely on a standard that brings to failiure?

I don't take anyone's side, just wish to do the best job possible, and am thrilled to be able to receive feedback from such skilled and experienced people here!

I have been racing as a driver in the national rally championship here in Italy, so I know my way around engines and mechanics, but this is a very specialized (and scaled) branch!
You can check some of mydriving videos here: www.youtube.com/thisisdriving

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Old 09-19-2010, 11:36 AM
  #308
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Cheers Harvey,

much appreciated writeup, also the pics look awesome!

Will keep you up to date, and let you know if I need the spacing for the rails.

Take care,
AJ


Quote:
ORIGINAL: FlogginHarvey

Have fun with that new Apache and the Blata...the extra weight in the rough water will be GREAT for that boat. There was a Blata Mount setup for sale here on RCU last week...it might still be there if you are needing it. It is the MHZ one and looked just like what I have in mine. They are not 5", I do think 6" was what it ended up being but can check later this week if need be.

The 60" I have runs better the rougher it gets. I think you will have a blast!

CONGRATS!

Here are pix of motor and mounts:
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Old 09-19-2010, 11:39 AM
  #309
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Mart,

I was asking myself... Do you think I will be able to close the hatch with the blata in there?
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Old 09-19-2010, 01:29 PM
  #310
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ORIGINAL: adrianojp

Mart,

I was asking myself... Do you think I will be able to close the hatch with the blata in there?
I couldnt tell you that one as ive never tried one but im sure it would fit ,come on guys help us out on this one .Still think the 5/16 cable stepped down would be best 10- 12 or more hp is a heck of a lot for a 1/4" flex to take but like i say im no expert on this.How high is the Blata from bottom of mount to top of plug ? that way i can measure see what room there is.
Mart
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Old 09-19-2010, 02:24 PM
  #311
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: martno1fan

Quote:
ORIGINAL: adrianojp

Mart,

I was asking myself... Do you think I will be able to close the hatch with the blata in there?
I couldnt tell you that one as ive never tried one but im sure it would fit ,come on guys help us out on this one .Still think the 5/16 cable stepped down would be best 10- 12 or more hp is a heck of a lot for a 1/4'' flex to take but like i say im no expert on this.How high is the Blata from bottom of mount to top of plug ? that way i can measure see what room there is.
Mart
Not sure, Mart. At teh office now but can measure and get back to you. Here is a pic of the motor and hatch on mine. Keep in mind the Blata in this MHZ 60" apache is not mounted at an angle...it's set parallel to keel because of the gear box and S6 drives. Notice the hole in teh hatch to accomodate the spark plug wire jsut aft of the "seats?"
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Old 09-19-2010, 03:04 PM
  #312
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Thanks mate,looking at that pic has me thinking it wont fit under the hatch so would need some modification or else have the plug come through the seat and stick a driver over the top,i know he could still mount the motor parrallel if need be but my hulls shallower than yours im certain.It would def need some modification to the hatch or something by the looks.
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Old 09-19-2010, 03:36 PM
  #313
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Measurements on MHZ site say 8 1/4" high cant see it fitting my hulls only that deep at the vee to flange at the front of hatch opening so im thinking no way it will fit [].The rcmk twin might be a better fit,but to be honest 56.3 mph is pretty fast with a single modded zen .Thats the fastest speed i know of one doing on the gps with that setup but theres a few arround 50 including mine and plenty more left to find on mine yet.
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Old 09-19-2010, 06:44 PM
  #314
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My hull is a 1980s capricorn with 6in rails that run a full 4ft. The builder intended for big engines at the time and felt it easier to add bushing material for 5in set ups if one wanted to go that way. Thus the reason for my 1/2in slugs to mount my sikk. Like I was telling Mart earlier its a real sturdy hull but weighs in at 14lbs. They don't make them anymore and being Canadian would not be an option for Adriano. I did all the measurements for myself using MHZ info and calculated the spark plug piercing through the bonnet under the center driver. Adriano is going scale I think , so if it is under the driver its a non issue. Having 5in rails when he needs 6in, that could be a problem.

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Old 09-19-2010, 10:00 PM
  #315
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Hey apache1 im running a similar setup im my apache I cant get pics up yet no camera but im running the same sikk with the same exact header and pipe. I had it on the lake today and was doing about 44mph on gps and I think it still has a little more left. Im running no trim tabs and it seems to run great with out them.. Good luck with your build.
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Old 09-20-2010, 10:32 PM
  #316
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Hi Guys.  I have been out of the R/C world for a few years.   I started with a 55" Dumas Scarab SKV and then bought a ready to run WareHouse Hobbies enforcer 47" with at the time the best Homelite you could get.  It hit a wall back in 03' or so and I sold everything.  I recently bought a brand new Apache on ebay for $145.00 so I have a good start.  I really like Warehouse Hobbies motors and Hardware, but I like FlogginHarveys gear box and twin drive setup.  I really want to keep a scale look, and not wanting to break any speed records, and one motor.  I think my new Apache has 5" rails installed but I will have to check.  It is still in the box.  I am not in a hurry to finish.  I will proably read everything you guys have posted and see what I can find to put in my new boat.  Please post your thoughts on drive setups, motors, etc.  I like really nice stuff so I will not cheese out on hardware and motors, it needs to look clean when complete.  Will post a pic later when I get it out.
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Old 09-20-2010, 11:50 PM
  #317
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If you have the cash to build with the drives and everything then check out MHZ they got nice scale stuff just not the cheapest.. Good luck with the build.
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Old 09-21-2010, 01:54 AM
  #318
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Yea if you do go with MHZ go direct to Germany not MHZ USA as they have a really bad rep.
Mart
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Old 09-21-2010, 09:37 PM
  #319
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FlogginHarvey,

Do you mind sharing some more info with me about your motor, radio box, the gear box, switches, fuel tanks, or anything that I might want to think about for my project. I will proably look at all kinds of stuff but I like your setup. I am not familure with your motor so could you brief me on it?

Thanks, Jared.


Quote:
ORIGINAL: FlogginHarvey


Quote:
ORIGINAL: martno1fan

Quote:
ORIGINAL: adrianojp

Mart,

I was asking myself... Do you thinkI willbe able to close the hatch with the blata in there?
I couldnt tell you that one as ive never tried one but im sure it would fit ,come on guys help us out on this one .Still think the 5/16 cable stepped down would be best 10- 12 or more hp is a heck of a lot for a 1/4'' flex to take but like i say im no expert on this.How high is the Blata from bottom of mount to top of plug ? that way i can measure see what room there is.
Mart
Not sure, Mart. At teh office now but can measure and get back to you. Here is a pic of the motor and hatch on mine. Keep in mind the Blata in this MHZ 60" apache is not mounted at an angle...it's set parallel to keel because of the gear box and S6 drives. Notice the hole in teh hatch to accomodate the spark plug wire jsut aft of the "seats?"
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Old 09-21-2010, 10:14 PM
  #320
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I answered my own question.  I see most of your items came from MHZ.  Why do they suggest those motors with the drives.  Is Zenoah not powerful enough?
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Old 09-22-2010, 01:57 AM
  #321
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Yes a zenoah is powerfull enough,a modded zenoah of arround 6 1/2hp will probably be as fast if not faster as its half the weight it certainly wouldnt be far off anyways in my opinion.Power to weight ratio is better,id think the rcmk inline twin would be a much better combo than the blata imo as its much lighter and also smaller than a zenoah twin (two engines coupled together).
Mart
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Old 09-22-2010, 08:16 AM
  #322
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if i rember right the problem with the gearbox and twin drive s are a single Zen or RCMK dosent tave the torq to run this setup the RCMK 520 would be a great choice for this aplication ithere is like a 33% overdrive at the prop with the gearbox and drive there is 16% overdrive in the S6 alone im running a S6 drive on a 57 " Apache the same hull as Apache 1 it runs well for having a promod Homelite in it but will be putting a Zen or RCMK in over the winter
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Old 09-22-2010, 09:09 AM
  #323
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: JaredW

I answered my own question. I see most of your items came from MHZ. Why do they suggest those motors with the drives. Is Zenoah not powerful enough?
Didnt see any mention of a gearbox and twin drives here which was why i said what i did
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Old 09-22-2010, 11:39 AM
  #324
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: JaredW

FlogginHarvey,

Do you mind sharing some more info with me about your motor, radio box, the gear box, switches, fuel tanks, or anything that I might want to think about for my project. I will proably look at all kinds of stuff but I like your setup. I am not familure with your motor so could you brief me on it?

Thanks, Jared.


Quote:
ORIGINAL: FlogginHarvey


Quote:
ORIGINAL: martno1fan

Quote:
ORIGINAL: adrianojp

Mart,

I was asking myself... Do you think I will be able to close the hatch with the blata in there?
I couldnt tell you that one as ive never tried one but im sure it would fit ,come on guys help us out on this one .Still think the 5/16 cable stepped down would be best 10- 12 or more hp is a heck of a lot for a 1/4'' flex to take but like i say im no expert on this.How high is the Blata from bottom of mount to top of plug ? that way i can measure see what room there is.
Mart
Not sure, Mart. At teh office now but can measure and get back to you. Here is a pic of the motor and hatch on mine. Keep in mind the Blata in this MHZ 60'' apache is not mounted at an angle...it's set parallel to keel because of the gear box and S6 drives. Notice the hole in teh hatch to accomodate the spark plug wire jsut aft of the ''seats?''

You bet. It is all from MHZ. The output shaft goes into the gear box (yes, 33% overdrive on the counter rotating output shafts) and then into the scale S6 drives (again, another 16% overdrive). To do a TWIN drive with the gear box you will need either a HUGE single cylinder motor (like a Blata or a Polini) OR a twin like the RCMK 520, MTC Twin or MATHO twin to get the torque necessary to spin up a set of props.

I am running a pair of 6617-3 Round Tips from Dasboata and have tried a BUNCH of props. The 6617-3 Roundies ran AWESOME in rough water a couple of weeks back. The chop was EASILY 12" tall with the wind and I bet some were over 14"here and there. When I opened it up it was CRAZY...the best it has EVER run period. I would say every bit of 50MPH compared to soem other boats running with it... I took some other video and posted it on You Tube this week of REALLY Calm water conditions and it was running in the 35-40MPH range as it just was too calm for the hull. With the length of the hull (60"), the weight of the package, and all the overdrive it just LOVEs rough water...it was SO much fn running and watching it on rough water. Looks SO scale. And, it ran awesome when all the other boats were forced to stay on shore and watch! I also have a pair of 6516-3 props with star tips and I am thinking about sending them back to Dasboata to have him round the tips...we'll see. I want to run them on the Mystic with the new QD HT's before I send them back so see what they will do...

The motor, mounts, and pipe are all from MHZ and came with the package when I told them what I wanted. The radio box is also a MHZ piece and the bottom was cut out so it could be laminated to the bottom of the hull offset to one side. There is a tray made from Epoxy glass and the servos were cut into and bolted to that as well. There are two servos for the steering (Hitech 755MG's) and a throttle servo as well. I run a Futaba 4PK FASST radio and an Isamtec Futaba NXT kill switch on almost all of my boats (two have RCKILLSWITCHES Killer Bee Marine kill switches).

Here is a video from the CALM day out on this past Monday. If you listen close you can hear the motor is a few thousand RPM shy of peak...just not near rough enogh for this BEAST!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TblKlAn9QEA
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Old 09-22-2010, 12:45 PM
  #325
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ORIGINAL: martno1fan


Quote:
ORIGINAL: JaredW

I answered my own question. I see most of your items came from MHZ. Why do they suggest those motors with the drives. Is Zenoah not powerful enough?
Didnt see any mention of a gearbox and twin drives here which was why i said what i did
no worries mart i had just saw that Jared asked about flogginharveys setup i have asked him about it before and he has helped me alot with my Apache with a single S6 im building up my 65"ballintine hull as we speek pulled her off the shelf and started cleaning her up hope to order alot of parts in the next few weeks will be a slow build but i hope a good one
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