Dumas sport 20 Pay N' Pak
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RE: Dumas sport 20 Pay N' Pak
You know Jet I'm not too impressed with the stock cowl that came with the Eagle.....Over on intlwaters I saw the boat that I think it was Bill's? I liked what he done to his Eagle's cowl...I like the open cockpit look...
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RE: Dumas sport 20 Pay N' Pak
The cowl on the 20Pakdiffers a little bit from the sport 40 size Atlas U-76 boat in that theres no cutouts for the exhaust stacks. I'm going to look around and see if I could find some exhaust stacks to put on the sides and I'm going to make a cutout up on top and fabricate a rearward facing scoop similar to the rear boat when it had the cowl on..
I have a 1/12 scale williams brother pilot bust that I'm going to use as a driver...
Here is the only pic I came across that shows the rear boat with the full cowl...
I have a 1/12 scale williams brother pilot bust that I'm going to use as a driver...
Here is the only pic I came across that shows the rear boat with the full cowl...
#29
RE: Dumas sport 20 Pay N' Pak
It was found in testing the boat that the cowl made the boat too "flighty". By removing the cowl, it was found that the boat was much less likely to get out of shape, so the cowl was relegated to covering the engine bay while flying down the hiway.
Rumor has it that Ron Jones actually argued with Dave Heerenspurger over making it a cabover. Ron wanted the front cockpit, Dave didn't. Dave won the debate since he was the one paying the bills. Ron did win the battles over the materials used, primarily Aluminum Honeycomb, and the twin tails and wing. When the boat was teamed up with with crew chief Jim Lucero and driver George Henley, the team became almost unbeatable. Even in the boat's first season with Mickey Remund driving, the team was a force to be overcome. Only the Miss Budweiser had any success against the Remund driven Pak in 1973, winning one less race than the Pak. Henley joined the Pak in 1974, after Remund was lured away by the Bud team, winning most of the races that season. Henley "retired " after the 1974 season, only to return to the cockpit part way through the 1975 season. After an offseason reworking, the Pak was a handful to drive and not dialed in. This resulted in the Miss Weisfields dominating the first three races. The return of Henley and some fine tuning of the boat resulted in a second place in the next race. From that point on, with Henley driving and the boat dialled in, it was a one boat race with the Pak dominating the rest of the season and winning it's third straight high points championship. Bill Muncey bought the team's assets after the season and, with Lucero staying on as crew chief, took the former Pak on a run that ended the season with a 4th consecutive championship. It also ended the Pak's reign as the boat to beat. With the introduction of the Blue Blaster in 1977, the Pak became an also ran. Sold to Madison Indiana after the 1977 season, where she ran one more time as the Pak, but without Lucero or Henley, she lost her Merlin powerplant and was fitted with a Turbo Allison. While always in the hunt, her outdated hull was no match for the two Rolls powered Atlas boats, Griffon Budweisers or the turbines she would be pitted against until her retirement when the new Miss Madison was unveilled at the Tri-Cities Regatta part way through the 1988 season. Now both the Pak, and her successor the Miss Madison, share a similar fate. The Pak is now stored in a warehouse in Detroit Michigan while the Madison is stored in another warehouse in the Madison Indiana area as a partially stripped down backup hull. As a side note, the Miss Madison never won a national championship, though she did win several races. Her successor, the Oberto sponsored Oberto/ Miss Madison has won consecutive titles in 2008 and 2009. Will she equal the Pak's 4? Time will tell
Rumor has it that Ron Jones actually argued with Dave Heerenspurger over making it a cabover. Ron wanted the front cockpit, Dave didn't. Dave won the debate since he was the one paying the bills. Ron did win the battles over the materials used, primarily Aluminum Honeycomb, and the twin tails and wing. When the boat was teamed up with with crew chief Jim Lucero and driver George Henley, the team became almost unbeatable. Even in the boat's first season with Mickey Remund driving, the team was a force to be overcome. Only the Miss Budweiser had any success against the Remund driven Pak in 1973, winning one less race than the Pak. Henley joined the Pak in 1974, after Remund was lured away by the Bud team, winning most of the races that season. Henley "retired " after the 1974 season, only to return to the cockpit part way through the 1975 season. After an offseason reworking, the Pak was a handful to drive and not dialed in. This resulted in the Miss Weisfields dominating the first three races. The return of Henley and some fine tuning of the boat resulted in a second place in the next race. From that point on, with Henley driving and the boat dialled in, it was a one boat race with the Pak dominating the rest of the season and winning it's third straight high points championship. Bill Muncey bought the team's assets after the season and, with Lucero staying on as crew chief, took the former Pak on a run that ended the season with a 4th consecutive championship. It also ended the Pak's reign as the boat to beat. With the introduction of the Blue Blaster in 1977, the Pak became an also ran. Sold to Madison Indiana after the 1977 season, where she ran one more time as the Pak, but without Lucero or Henley, she lost her Merlin powerplant and was fitted with a Turbo Allison. While always in the hunt, her outdated hull was no match for the two Rolls powered Atlas boats, Griffon Budweisers or the turbines she would be pitted against until her retirement when the new Miss Madison was unveilled at the Tri-Cities Regatta part way through the 1988 season. Now both the Pak, and her successor the Miss Madison, share a similar fate. The Pak is now stored in a warehouse in Detroit Michigan while the Madison is stored in another warehouse in the Madison Indiana area as a partially stripped down backup hull. As a side note, the Miss Madison never won a national championship, though she did win several races. Her successor, the Oberto sponsored Oberto/ Miss Madison has won consecutive titles in 2008 and 2009. Will she equal the Pak's 4? Time will tell
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RE: Dumas sport 20 Pay N' Pak
Good history lesson, Thanks! I read somewhere that the reason being was also because the driver was afraid of the cowl coming off and striking him while running?
#31
RE: Dumas sport 20 Pay N' Pak
That wasn't likely to happen. With the rubber hold downs they used, basically the same as used by some semi tractor manufacturers, unless the boat has a major structural failure or crewman screwed up the cowl wan't going anywhere.
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RE: Dumas sport 20 Pay N' Pak
The basic hull and cowl is finished...All thats left is to epoxy on the wing after I sand an airfoil shape to it...
A couple days ago I mixed up a thick batch of 30min epoxy and microballoons and filled in some nicks here & there and today was spent sanding, shaping the nose & front air dams.
I wiped out my right angle drive on my Dremel and started to remove some frames on the inside compartment and shape them, along with the front area so my SS-6 tank can be able to fit up in the nose area. I'm trying to figure out the radio layout. I have two CNC machined servo mounts for standard servos. I'l have to take pics later to show better what I'm talking about, but I'd like to mount both throttle & rudder servos up forward and make a radio box between frames 5 & 6. It fits but leaves little room for my mini reciever & battery pack. Or, could i get away with a mini servo for the throttle? if so then whats a good choice? I have several Cox mini servos that produce 9.9oz torque. My rudder servos I have two choices, both are hitec, one is a MG625 and the other is a MG645
Now since the sport 20 cowl has no cutouts for a dummy exhaust or any for that matter, I've studied pictures of the real boat with the cowl over its engine and I will try and copy that look. I am going to make a functional cowl scoop in the area where it should be. I am also going to make some narrow cutouts along each side where the V-12's exhaust would be, however I'm going to cement some black window screen material on the inside instead of fake stacks to allow some air circulation inside the cowl....
A couple days ago I mixed up a thick batch of 30min epoxy and microballoons and filled in some nicks here & there and today was spent sanding, shaping the nose & front air dams.
I wiped out my right angle drive on my Dremel and started to remove some frames on the inside compartment and shape them, along with the front area so my SS-6 tank can be able to fit up in the nose area. I'm trying to figure out the radio layout. I have two CNC machined servo mounts for standard servos. I'l have to take pics later to show better what I'm talking about, but I'd like to mount both throttle & rudder servos up forward and make a radio box between frames 5 & 6. It fits but leaves little room for my mini reciever & battery pack. Or, could i get away with a mini servo for the throttle? if so then whats a good choice? I have several Cox mini servos that produce 9.9oz torque. My rudder servos I have two choices, both are hitec, one is a MG625 and the other is a MG645
Now since the sport 20 cowl has no cutouts for a dummy exhaust or any for that matter, I've studied pictures of the real boat with the cowl over its engine and I will try and copy that look. I am going to make a functional cowl scoop in the area where it should be. I am also going to make some narrow cutouts along each side where the V-12's exhaust would be, however I'm going to cement some black window screen material on the inside instead of fake stacks to allow some air circulation inside the cowl....
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RE: Dumas sport 20 Pay N' Pak
As promised heres some pics of the boat as she is now...
Inside you'll see that I'm going to keep the Dumas radio box layout,I felt that it would make things simpler. The center is not very wide, its about 3 inches or so wide...
Then heres a pic of the CNC servo mounts I picked up from Hong Kong for about 10 bux or so for the two...They're really nice.
Oh, BTW, heres the last of my "Al's hobby Shop" decal. this one came from around 2005 and I dont think they make them anymore.
I'm going for a cabinet latch to secure my cowl and I have a bunch of these Williams brothers busts. this one is 1/8 scale as i thought the 1/12 scale made my driver look like a midget...I figured bigger in this case is better....Which driver looks better? small one or the bigger one?
Inside you'll see that I'm going to keep the Dumas radio box layout,I felt that it would make things simpler. The center is not very wide, its about 3 inches or so wide...
Then heres a pic of the CNC servo mounts I picked up from Hong Kong for about 10 bux or so for the two...They're really nice.
Oh, BTW, heres the last of my "Al's hobby Shop" decal. this one came from around 2005 and I dont think they make them anymore.
I'm going for a cabinet latch to secure my cowl and I have a bunch of these Williams brothers busts. this one is 1/8 scale as i thought the 1/12 scale made my driver look like a midget...I figured bigger in this case is better....Which driver looks better? small one or the bigger one?
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RE: Dumas sport 20 Pay N' Pak
R.J.
Here is what I did with my cowl. The hood scoop is very simple. Just cut 3 slices and 2 plywood wedges. Seems to work fine!
The boat is pretty old now and in need of a paint job but is still fast and handles well. I also notched the radio box before gluing for the 1/8" plexiglass lid so I can use tape to seal it (much better then screws)
I liked the boat so much I have a spare kit in the attic.
Jeff
Here is what I did with my cowl. The hood scoop is very simple. Just cut 3 slices and 2 plywood wedges. Seems to work fine!
The boat is pretty old now and in need of a paint job but is still fast and handles well. I also notched the radio box before gluing for the 1/8" plexiglass lid so I can use tape to seal it (much better then screws)
I liked the boat so much I have a spare kit in the attic.
Jeff
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RE: Dumas sport 20 Pay N' Pak
You know, for whatever reasons the Dumas Pay n Pak sport 20 boat kits dont sell for much more than 30-40 bux on ebay. I'm half tempted to pick up another one myself just to hang on to. This was a pretty cool & easy build for me...
The scoop you done for your boat looks pretty cool and I'm also considering making those style scoops but on the sides instead of up on top. On top of the cowl I was thinking more of a shaker style scoop that faces rearward, like those old trans ams.
The scoop you done for your boat looks pretty cool and I'm also considering making those style scoops but on the sides instead of up on top. On top of the cowl I was thinking more of a shaker style scoop that faces rearward, like those old trans ams.
#36
RE: Dumas sport 20 Pay N' Pak
And you would be right, it did face the boat's rear. The rearward facing of the scoop prevented most of the water from going down the carb stacks and into the supercharger.
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RE: Dumas sport 20 Pay N' Pak
What I was thinking of doing was to make a retangular cutout on top of the cowl just in front of where the exhaust stacks should be and create a shaker scoop by making two side pieces in the profile of the scoop, epoxy those on a 1/8 ply bottom, the top of the scoop will be made of 1/32 ply and it will then be epoxied on the inside of the cowl thru the cutout creating a more scale-like appearance....If any of you out there has built the Dumas 1/8 scale pak, then you may be familar with what I'm tring to describe to do.
I'm going to go ahead and make some cutouts along the side for the exhaust stacks. Those will be made from a strip of brass sheet with brass tube cut down about 3/8" or so, solder 6 on each strip and screw those on the inside of the cutouts to make false engine exhaust stacks....Off the top of my head I'm thinking maybe 1/4" dia brass tube will be close enough for the exhaust stacks..
I'm going to go ahead and make some cutouts along the side for the exhaust stacks. Those will be made from a strip of brass sheet with brass tube cut down about 3/8" or so, solder 6 on each strip and screw those on the inside of the cutouts to make false engine exhaust stacks....Off the top of my head I'm thinking maybe 1/4" dia brass tube will be close enough for the exhaust stacks..
#38
RE: Dumas sport 20 Pay N' Pak
Okay RJ, now you've done it. Between you and Misshydro, I had to order both a Pak 20 AND an Eagle kit. I just hope you are both satisfied. Needless to say, neither of mine will be stock when done. Can we say lightened and improved? I'm looking at a K&B .21 for the Pak and my K&B .45 for the Eagle. Either that or go with an OS 18 for the Pak and the K&B .21 for the Eagle. I might have to put the K&B .21 in both, still trying to decide. I figure with as lite as I want to get, any of the above set ups would work. What would be sad is if my Eagle could beat Misshydro's Eagle with mine having only a .21 for power. Any bets on that one
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RE: Dumas sport 20 Pay N' Pak
Why stop there, I just recieved my Miss Unlimited from Dumas yesterday.... and at 62 bux total, its a steal....
I'm glad that we are having such a positive influence on you with our Dumas builds! The Pak 20 I thought was an easy build...but remember one thing my friend, its not always the fastest boat that wins. You still have to finish the heat and earn those points...
The Dumas instructions show a Veco .19, which is in its own right, a decent engine, why not consider that one? Although the O.S. .18 marine would be moremodern. I'm one of those guys that likes displacement. I chose to use a OPS .21 side exhaust in mine.
#40
RE: Dumas sport 20 Pay N' Pak
The Veco is an old engine that wouldn't stand a chance in today's racing world. I'm thinking with the 18, I might get to run against the bigger Vegas hulls, with the 21 I might stand a chance against some of the newer boats, not that I would ever win with it. Would be fun either way, though I would like to take a shot at knocking off Jerry Dunlap and his Vegas. Just might have to do the 18
BTW, did you see my post, I SAID IT WOULD NOT BE STOCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
BTW, did you see my post, I SAID IT WOULD NOT BE STOCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
#41
RE: Dumas sport 20 Pay N' Pak
Okay, RJ, how about this one? Modify the transom by either arching it a touch or notch it and make other similar boats using the Pak kit as a base. I know the 73 Bud, 72 Notre Dame, 74 Valu Mart and the 78 Bud were all very similar in look and size. Just have to get a few different cowls and we'd be good to go. BTW, did I say it wouldn't be a stock build?
#42
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RE: Dumas sport 20 Pay N' Pak
Well if you want to be technical about it, mine isnt stock either, as the plans did call for a Veco .19, and I'm using a ops .21
For the benefit of our readers over here, so we can bring everyone reading this up to date. To the best of my knowledge with a cowl change & a nose job, the Dumas Pay N Pak hulls can be made to look like any of these.....Current sport 20-40 rules dont require the boats to be exactlly to scale, but by using the Paks hull as a generic platform to start with, heres some ideas you can play with....
'72 Notre Dame U-7
'73 Pay N pak U-25
'74 Miss U.S. U-2
'74 U-95 Turbine
'75 U-76 Valvoline
'75 U-74 Weisfields
'75 U-3 Tri-cities
'76 U-12 Budweiser > my choice!
'77 U-6 Miss Madison
'78 U-31 Circus Circus
'79 U-52 Design 360
'80 U-2 Squire Shop
'81 U-8 Oberto
'83 U-7 American Speedy Printing
For the benefit of our readers over here, so we can bring everyone reading this up to date. To the best of my knowledge with a cowl change & a nose job, the Dumas Pay N Pak hulls can be made to look like any of these.....Current sport 20-40 rules dont require the boats to be exactlly to scale, but by using the Paks hull as a generic platform to start with, heres some ideas you can play with....
'72 Notre Dame U-7
'73 Pay N pak U-25
'74 Miss U.S. U-2
'74 U-95 Turbine
'75 U-76 Valvoline
'75 U-74 Weisfields
'75 U-3 Tri-cities
'76 U-12 Budweiser > my choice!
'77 U-6 Miss Madison
'78 U-31 Circus Circus
'79 U-52 Design 360
'80 U-2 Squire Shop
'81 U-8 Oberto
'83 U-7 American Speedy Printing
#43
RE: Dumas sport 20 Pay N' Pak
I see a typo RJ, it would be the 78 Madison, not the 77. The 72-77 Madison was a clone on the U71 Atlas. I guess I"ll have to do a little checking on the boats when I get home from school later today
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RE: Dumas sport 20 Pay N' Pak
Well I'm very happy with how my Pak is coming along today. I took a break from my Miss Unlimited build to pay some attention to my Pak. I cut & installed the oak rails for the radio box. i also made some center lines in my wing and using a measured & cut wood block placed between the wings to keep them evenly spaced up & down, I laid the wing upside down and put a thin strip of ca along my lines I made, and shot a spritz of accelerant on the wing uprights and held the cowl upside down and slowly got things lined up and pressed it down in place.
And finally after studing some pics of the real boat, comparing measurements and recalculating, I made some marks and drew lines for the exhaust cutouts and center lines for the air intake up on top. The top scoop needs to be in front of the first line drawn, towards the nose, in the pic it shows more towards the exhaust. These are just rough markings, I always say, measure twice, cut once, cause it wont grow back once you cut it...I'm on the hunt for the most closest scale driver, windshield & scale engine exhaust/scoop. If not then I'll have to scratch build them. I do have a 1/8 williams brothers pilot bust, but hes alittle on the big side, but better than my 1/12 scale, who looks like a midget in the cockpit....
heres some pics of the plans, I'm going oldschool on my decals, next on my list is to order some orange and black monokote and trim the decals from the plans as shown...
And finally after studing some pics of the real boat, comparing measurements and recalculating, I made some marks and drew lines for the exhaust cutouts and center lines for the air intake up on top. The top scoop needs to be in front of the first line drawn, towards the nose, in the pic it shows more towards the exhaust. These are just rough markings, I always say, measure twice, cut once, cause it wont grow back once you cut it...I'm on the hunt for the most closest scale driver, windshield & scale engine exhaust/scoop. If not then I'll have to scratch build them. I do have a 1/8 williams brothers pilot bust, but hes alittle on the big side, but better than my 1/12 scale, who looks like a midget in the cockpit....
heres some pics of the plans, I'm going oldschool on my decals, next on my list is to order some orange and black monokote and trim the decals from the plans as shown...
#45
RE: Dumas sport 20 Pay N' Pak
So, let me see if I got this straight, I'm not to do the Pak, but must do something else? I guess that means the 78 Madison and maybe the 77 Atlas. You do realize that now I will probably have to do at least two or three of these things just to show what can be done with it. As per usual with me, none will be stock and all will need to look good, though no museum quality for me as I'm not a painter
#47
RE: Dumas sport 20 Pay N' Pak
Naw, California will still be there, but there is no guarrantee on Kansas or Ohio not caving into the Earth's core due to lack of cooling water. It also sounds like Mr Yota wants to build one, so how about doing the U-95 , Yota? You need a Sport 20 sized boat as much as I do I'll even be nice and give you the MHR specs for the boat:
Length: 28 feet
Width: 13 feet
Tunnel: 6 foot 8 inches
Afterplane: 16 feet 8inches
Picklefork Depth: 6 feet
If you can't figure it out on your own, Yota, I'll give you the scale dimensions later
Length: 28 feet
Width: 13 feet
Tunnel: 6 foot 8 inches
Afterplane: 16 feet 8inches
Picklefork Depth: 6 feet
If you can't figure it out on your own, Yota, I'll give you the scale dimensions later
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RE: Dumas sport 20 Pay N' Pak
its very tempting to build a 20, its deciding between re-cutting half of a dumas kit or just go for a whip and call it a day, first must finish a couple boat projects I already have going though....
By the way nice looking boat RJ.
By the way nice looking boat RJ.
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RE: Dumas sport 20 Pay N' Pak
Hi toyotatruckin,
Thank you for the complement on my Pak, I try to do my best with what tools & modeling skills I have...I built that hull on a flat building board in my bedroom on top of a T.V. dinner stand, and did all my cutting & sanding outside on my porch.
Its almost finished, as I'm just now sanding the outside w/220. I'm now in the process of installing radio gear and drivetrain in place. I have one of Solinger's .21 mount however the holes in it do not match up to my OPS .21. I emailed Joe to see if it was possible to have one custom made for me as I really like this mount alot, and unfortunaltely he could not be able to do so until this summer. I do not want to drill addtional holes in the mount, I want to keep it clean. Theres not enough meat on the OPS base to drill out the holes. So its either I wait till summer, find another mount, or find an engine that will fit the Solinger .21 mount, the holes on the mount are spaced wider than my OPS....I have no idea what engine it was designed for, if its made for a k&b then I'l get one
Thank you for the complement on my Pak, I try to do my best with what tools & modeling skills I have...I built that hull on a flat building board in my bedroom on top of a T.V. dinner stand, and did all my cutting & sanding outside on my porch.
Its almost finished, as I'm just now sanding the outside w/220. I'm now in the process of installing radio gear and drivetrain in place. I have one of Solinger's .21 mount however the holes in it do not match up to my OPS .21. I emailed Joe to see if it was possible to have one custom made for me as I really like this mount alot, and unfortunaltely he could not be able to do so until this summer. I do not want to drill addtional holes in the mount, I want to keep it clean. Theres not enough meat on the OPS base to drill out the holes. So its either I wait till summer, find another mount, or find an engine that will fit the Solinger .21 mount, the holes on the mount are spaced wider than my OPS....I have no idea what engine it was designed for, if its made for a k&b then I'l get one
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RE: Dumas sport 20 Pay N' Pak
RJ,
First, boat looks great!
You can copy that mount by buying some aluminum stock and cut and drill yourself. You can leave it rectangular, it will not be too heavy. The rubber bushings can be bought from McMaster Carr. Do a search on their site for vibration bushings. mcmaster.com
First, boat looks great!
You can copy that mount by buying some aluminum stock and cut and drill yourself. You can leave it rectangular, it will not be too heavy. The rubber bushings can be bought from McMaster Carr. Do a search on their site for vibration bushings. mcmaster.com