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  1. #26

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    RE: Easy lines & rivets

    Leroy, i really like the outcome of your technique and work. I think i will give this a go on my A10 i am finishing up at the moment.
    For FYI, the base is Liquid Sheeting II, supplied by Wowplanes.com an then several coats of primer applied for a test flight/maiden
    stage at this time. I do plan on finishing out this plane this winter when i cant fly it so riverts and panel lines will really set it apart
    from a plain jane paint finish. Please post any other pics you have as to final finish. This is 1/10 scale so i need to scale down the
    tubing sizes and may do the cam lock and dzus fasteners only.
    My additional idea is to "highlight" or preshade the panel lines like modelers do on the plastics so that will bring out and highlight the
    panel lines for a weathering effect. I sprayed with gray primer and then will apply a coat of white primer to help with the preshading.
    Your thoughts on the preshading idea???
    Sam Woodard
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  2. #27
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    RE: Easy lines & rivets

    One thing to keep in mind with the P-51 is that the rivets on the wings were filled and the wings were painted even on natural aluminum schemes. So unless it was a very weathered or repaired (or inaccurately restored like the P-51B, Macon Belle), the rivets were not visible on the wings. Screwheads, however were visible. Afterall, a screwhead does not work very well if they are filled.
    BTW, I've had pretty good results with the chart tape process. Also, scribing does not work when replicating overlapping joints. But I have to say, Leroy, that's the best scribing job I've seen.

    Scott
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  3. #28

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    RE: Easy lines & rivets

    The panel lines and rivets look fantastic. Thanks for posting.



    Carl

  4. #29
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    RE: Easy lines & rivets

    In respect to filled and painted rivets and lines, that is the way they were done during the war years. Today alot of these planes have been restored and polished and there is no filled rivets on any part of the plane thus they show up. anexample is Crazy Horse and Cripes Amighty 3rd.
    that my plane finish is done in. It's a beautiful plane done in automotive base/clear acrylic urthane that has been sanded to 3000 grit and buffed and in the polish stage at this time useing the same compound. It's so shiney that to see the rivets and lines you have to follow a robbon of light along any part of it to see them, much the same on the real plane.Leroy
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    Leroy Tiger Club # 53, TF 1/5th P-51 mustang
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  5. #30
    Leroy Gardner's Avatar
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    RE: Easy lines & rivets


    ORIGINAL: sam@ata

    Leroy, i really like the outcome of your technique and work. I think i will give this a go on my A10 i am finishing up at the moment.
    For FYI, the base is Liquid Sheeting II, supplied by Wowplanes.com an then several coats of primer applied for a test flight/maiden
    stage at this time. I do plan on finishing out this plane this winter when i cant fly it so riverts and panel lines will really set it apart
    from a plain jane paint finish. Please post any other pics you have as to final finish. This is 1/10 scale so i need to scale down the
    tubing sizes and may do the cam lock and dzus fasteners only.
    My additional idea is to ''highlight'' or preshade the panel lines like modelers do on the plastics so that will bring out and highlight the
    panel lines for a weathering effect. I sprayed with gray primer and then will apply a coat of white primer to help with the preshading.
    Your thoughts on the preshading idea???
    Sam the one thing you will have the biggest problem with is size of rivets on 1/10 scale, dimples will produce the same effect on that size plane so test that out on some scrap lay up. Rivets on my plane are turned in with a 1/16" brass tube sharpened on inside
    and even they are a tad big for 1/5 scale, tube should have been sharpened on out side but did not produce the propper look when finished, as it turned out, my rivets really turn some heads and they say how'd you do that, I say one at a time. Alot goes into doing this
    but the results speek for themselves. No one in my aera has anything finished like this.


    As far as shading lines goes ? well it is up to the builder and what he likes but no war bird dirty or not looked like these shaded lines models today. Just do it your way and don't worry about what others think, actually I"ve seen some that don't look bad at all, just keep your shaded lines faint and enjoy it when finished. Leroy
    Leroy Tiger Club # 53, TF 1/5th P-51 mustang
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  6. #31

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    RE: Easy lines & rivets


    ORIGINAL: sam@ata
    My additional idea is to ''highlight'' or preshade the panel lines like modelers do on the plastics so that will bring out and highlight the
    panel lines for a weathering effect. I sprayed with gray primer and then will apply a coat of white primer to help with the preshading.
    Your thoughts on the preshading idea???
    I pre-shaded my last two projects and am happy enough with the results that I will continue to use the process in the future. Unfortunately the results are very subtle and are almost impossible to see in photos, at least photos taken with my relatively inexpensive equipment. The technique is much better suited to schemes that are predominatley one color in my opinion although it can work with any paint job. Camo and other multiple color schemes may require more work though. On my Harvard the pre-shading works very nicely on the yellow undersides while not quite as well on the camoflauged top sides. I shot the entire upper surfaces with brown first and then applied the green over the top of that. In those cases the pre-shading has two layers of paint over it which, of course, hides more of the effect. Better to have either pre-shaded again over the top of the brown where the green was to go or, better yet, not to have overlapped the colors. Same deal when painting the markings on. If you want the shading to come through the markings you will need to apply it again over the base color prior to spraying the marking itself.

    On my Hellcat the whole process was simplified because of the overall single base color. Once again it is very hard to detect in pictures but it is apparent in person, particularly when the model is outside in natural light. Give it a try and I think you will be pleased.







  7. #32
    Leroy Gardner's Avatar
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    RE: Easy lines & rivets

    Chad as usual you do some remarkable things with your planes and finishes and we all could learn plenty from you. I have to date not tried your method for shading but find it intresting enough to consider on a P-47 which I'm concidering as my next build. Truth is I don't know exactly how it's done. After all the work and time I put into the mustang and I'm not sorry for it I got to admit an easier way shurly is appealing at my age. I do watch for your posts and as always there is something to learn or at least concider, I do like your building style Leroy
    Leroy Tiger Club # 53, TF 1/5th P-51 mustang
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  8. #33

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    RE: Easy lines & rivets


    ORIGINAL: Leroy Gardner

    Chad as usual you do some remarkable things with your planes and finishes and we all could learn plenty from you. I have to date not tried your method for shading but find it intresting enough to consider on a P-47 which I'm concidering as my next build. Truth is I don't know exactly how it's done. After all the work and time I put into the mustang and I'm not sorry for it I got to admit an easier way shurly is appealing at my age. I do watch for your posts and as always there is something to learn or at least concider, I do like your building style Leroy
    Thanks for the kind words Leroy, much appreciated. Looking at your fantastic Mustang build I'm not sure there is much you're going to learn from me but I'll keep throwing ideas out there anyway! Regarding pre-shading I wrote an article about painting my Harvard which appeared in a British scale magazine last year. I briefly discuss my pre-shading technique in the article and would be glad to email you a copy of it if you're interested. I have not perfected the process by any means but I might be able to stimulate you're thinking on the subject. I picked up the idea from the plastic model guys, some of whom make pre-shading and post-shading into an art form. (As well as many other weathering techniques.) My favorite plastic model hang out is called Hyperscale, www.hyperscale.com. Worth a look around if you have some spare time.

  9. #34

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    RE: Easy lines & rivets

    Please, don't anyone give up on this thread.....I am following it.....I tried the tape and spraying 3 coats of primer....added a lot of weight.
    Just sanded it down to the bare bones again and will attempt scribing...

  10. #35

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    RE: Easy lines & rivets


    ORIGINAL: sebo
    Please, don't anyone give up on this thread.....I am following it.....I tried the tape and spraying 3 coats of primer....added a lot of weight.
    Just sanded it down to the bare bones again and will attempt scribing...
    I'm not sure what your exact procedure was sebo but doing the tape/primer method should add almost zero weight. First, you only need to spray the primer over the tapes and not the entire surface of the model. Then you sand away 99% of the primer leaving only minimal build up along the edges of the tapes. I sand until the tape is completely revealed so that it can be removed clean and without chipping the primer. You do not need to build up an excessive amount of primer and what may seem like a very faint panel line in the primer will in fact show up quite well even under three or four coats of paint. Just my .02 cents of course.

  11. #36

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    RE: Easy lines & rivets

    I am using white automotive paint so I used white primer over the entire area then I put the tape on and primed over it.
    Pulled the tape off and shop the automotive paint over it. Actually shot 2 coats of white paint over the primer. Looked pretty but heavy as all getout....Plus, I usually build a light aircraft.
    Don't know what happened this time. Have any ideas? I have now sanded down to the glass. Ready to mask of and try again.
    What did I do wong?

    Loaded pictures...was hoping you could see the panel lines.

    I'll take a couple of pictures of the wing and add them to the post........I haven't sanded them down yet..


    Here they are.

    Since I sanded the panel lines off and couldn't find the old plastic plane I had, I was compelled to order another one tonight.........Beware, Plastic models of the same kindfrom the same manufacturer can run anywhere from $12.95 to $34.95...shop wisely........plus the more you pay for the kit the more they charge you for shipping......doesn't make sense.

    Plastic models are known to have the more accurate panel lines......I read that somewhere.
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  12. #37
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    RE: Easy lines & rivets

    Sebo what Chad said is true if you are going with the chart tape and his 2 cents is really worth several dollars. Also Tom Crumb said if you sand and pull tape on the green side ( primer not fully cured ) it does'nt chip as much and adhesive comes off better also, I would take his word on that as he does alot of it. Nice plane you have there Sebo, hope you get the buggs out of the finish.

    Those lines and rivets will show up fine, they don't have to be bold to look good. White does'nt show them as well as darker colores but you will still see them when reflective light hits them. Much the same as the details on my mustang. Leroy
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  13. #38
    Leroy Gardner's Avatar
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    RE: Easy lines & rivets


    ORIGINAL: Chad Veich


    ORIGINAL: Leroy Gardner

    Chad as usual you do some remarkable things with your planes and finishes and we all could learn plenty from you. I have to date not tried your method for shading but find it intresting enough to consider on a P-47 which I'm concidering as my next build. Truth is I don't know exactly how it's done. After all the work and time I put into the mustang and I'm not sorry for it I got to admit an easier way shurly is appealing at my age. I do watch for your posts and as always there is something to learn or at least concider, I do like your building style Leroy
    Thanks for the kind words Leroy, much appreciated. Looking at your fantastic Mustang build I'm not sure there is much you're going to learn from me but I'll keep throwing ideas out there anyway! Regarding pre-shading I wrote an article about painting my Harvard which appeared in a British scale magazine last year. I briefly discuss my pre-shading technique in the article and would be glad to email you a copy of it if you're interested. I have not perfected the process by any means but I might be able to stimulate you're thinking on the subject. I picked up the idea from the plastic model guys, some of whom make pre-shading and post-shading into an art form. (As well as many other weathering techniques.) My favorite plastic model hang out is called Hyperscale, www.hyperscale.com. Worth a look around if you have some spare time.
    Chad thanks for your kind words as well, but your wrong, "ok", your half wrong, yes the mustang is a beauty and I learned plenty from it, but, you still have about 30 yr's or so and God knows how many planes built over me, so there is still plenty to learn here. I have always been greatful to so many that provided so much info. over the past 6 years when I started the mustang. I knew I could build it but there is much to know about anything you build and you should get that info. before you even start the build. You probably do the same thing and I call it building smart.
    I don't know squat about plastic models except they are feally cool and scale, I think ? Thanks for the web site I'll go back there and see if I can get shading guide lines and play around with that some. Leroy
    Leroy Tiger Club # 53, TF 1/5th P-51 mustang
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  14. #39

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    RE: Easy lines & rivets

    Thanks, guys..............I'm taking everything to heart. I can hardly believe the weight I have sanded off the back end of that plane.....waiting for the plastic one to arrive to get lines correct.
    Not going to put rivets on it this time....very time consuming.........I wanna fly it.

    Again thanks...........keep the good stuff coming.

  15. #40

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    RE: Easy lines & rivets

    Here is the effect im going to shoot for on my A10 with applying the panel preshading. This is on a large Mibo turbine A-10 and i think roughly 1/6 scale. Now visualize this at 1/10, no rivets, just the painted highlights and this is my plan. The scheme i will do is the Blacksnakes, 163rd FS of the Indiana ANG in Ft. Wayne as seen in the next pic. I already have stencils and markings done by GetStencils.com and i am eager to start the finishing so stay tuned. The work up above on the F6 and Harvard is outstanding. Just what im looking for in mine.
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    Sam Woodard
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  16. #41
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    RE: Easy lines & rivets

    This intrest in lines and rivets made me recal a thread I read back when I was trying to figure out how to do mine.It's about a pro builder that built a jet for a Saudi Prince. He is in the UK where they produce some of the finest scale planes that I have ever seen, most of which is over my head. Any way he used tape of a higher quality than chart tape for lines and vinyl rivets, thousands.and primed, sanded then pulled the tape and meticulously plucked those tiny rivets off. When it was painted stained and finished it was incredible. A lot of work and at the time I thought there must be another way to do this, thats when I took the task to perfect the scribing I did on mine. For some it could possibly be your worst nightmare. All this requires time and effort no matter how you decide to do it. In my case, the proper custom tools are needed or you might as well go a different route.and there are several ways to do this that produce good results. Leroy

    Talk about lines and rivets and realisum check this UK built P-47, if it don't grab your goodies nothing will. Found it in, For Those Who Love WW II Warbirds. I'm not even going to try that. Leroy

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    Leroy Tiger Club # 53, TF 1/5th P-51 mustang
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  17. #42

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    RE: Easy lines & rivets

    This is were the definition between what we do as hobbist blurs toward art. It does take time, trial and error but for the few builders left in this hobby, finishing is truly an art in its self. Anyone can apply paint but to use the paint in such a way that truly replicates burnt metal, weathering and such takes a talent that others cherish.
    Keep up the ideas and sharing of this talent for all of us to enjoy and druel over.
    Sam
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  18. #43

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    RE: Easy lines & rivets

    I like the color scheme on the first on........Just my opinion.............

  19. #44
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    RE: Easy lines & rivets


    ORIGINAL: sam@ata

    This is were the definition between what we do as hobbist blurs toward art. It does take time, trial and error but for the few builders left in this hobby, finishing is truly an art in its self. Anyone can apply paint but to use the paint in such a way that truly replicates burnt metal, weathering and such takes a talent that others cherish.
    Keep up the ideas and sharing of this talent for all of us to enjoy and druel over.
    Sam
    Sam no truer words were ever spoken. Art it is for those of us who dare to tread there. This shading technique is very intresting, those picts Chad posted show the start and finish of it but not how, step by step it was accomplished. I would like to know more about it and any short cuts getting the info. would save alot of research. this is truely the coolest stuff not many do. I like RCU, there is alot more info here than another site I know of. Leroy
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  20. #45

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    RE: Easy lines & rivets

    I think that Dave Platt has a video on shading...He's a pretty good modeler too

  21. #46

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    RE: Easy lines & rivets

    Hi Leroy,

    Your system certainly looks easier than the chart tape route to make the panel lines. But could you clarify a couple of things, since I have not tried either as of yet, and I'm not really familiar with types of scribes.

    I browsed the web and found some different scribes, based on their industry (machinist's, pocket scribers, needle scribers). Could you provide a more detailed explanation of the scribes you've tried? Also, the way it's written, you use carbide straight scribes as well as dental picks. Is this for being able to make various thicknesses of panel lines?

    You also mention about "fine tuning" the scribes. What did that consist of, and the reasons for doing it?

    Lastly, I guess it might be understood, but this detailing is done on the very final coat of primer, correct? Once completely done, and degreased again, it's time for the paint, with no more primer on top of the new lines and rivets?

    Thanks!

  22. #47
    Leroy Gardner's Avatar
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    RE: Easy lines & rivets


    ORIGINAL: saramos

    One thing to keep in mind with the P-51 is that the rivets on the wings were filled and the wings were painted even on natural aluminum schemes. So unless it was a very weathered or repaired (or inaccurately restored like the P-51B, Macon Belle), the rivets were not visible on the wings. Screwheads, however were visible. Afterall, a screwhead does not work very well if they are filled.
    BTW, I've had pretty good results with the chart tape process. Also, scribing does not work when replicating overlapping joints. But I have to say, Leroy, that's the best scribing job I've seen.

    Scott
    Thank you Scott for the nice words. I have to tell you that when I had plane in first show 18-19th Aug. a member of our club, Chris ,owner or part owner of VENOM Corp. saw my plane and asked if I scribed my lines. I thought how could he know that, turnes out many pro builders that design and build planes to make moldes of scribe theirs, it's the only way to get lines like that in the mold. Then he said there was one thing I did'nt do so I bit and said what and he said you did'nt make a mold before you painted it. Pretty nice coming from a pro like him.

    Your plane really looks great and it's ok to talk about how you did your's, I see an intrest here, so share it with us if you care to Leroy
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  23. #48
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    RE: Easy lines & rivets


    ORIGINAL: dwatherton

    Hi Leroy,

    Your system certainly looks easier than the chart tape route to make the panel lines. But could you clarify a couple of things, since I have not tried either as of yet, and I'm not really familiar with types of scribes.

    I browsed the web and found some different scribes, based on their industry (machinist's, pocket scribers, needle scribers). Could you provide a more detailed explanation of the scribes you've tried? Also, the way it's written, you use carbide straight scribes as well as dental picks. Is this for being able to make various thicknesses of panel lines?

    You also mention about ''fine tuning'' the scribes. What did that consist of, and the reasons for doing it?

    Lastly, I guess it might be understood, but this detailing is done on the very final coat of primer, correct? Once completely done, and degreased again, it's time for the paint, with no more primer on top of the new lines and rivets?

    Thanks!
    I wrote you a responce to your questions a couple hours ago and tryed to post it but was timed out and it never went, instead I got a bit PO'd. I thought they took care of those issues, never had any of this crap with the other owner. System is jamming about this time of night so hang in there and I'll get back to you.[>:] Leroy
    Leroy Tiger Club # 53, TF 1/5th P-51 mustang
    Eagle 2 11, bashed Tiger 60, Spacewalker 11 1/4 scale
    P-51 Mustang Brotherhood #28, Sig Brotherhood #12
    If it works for you there is still a wrong way

  24. #49
    Ron101's Avatar
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    RE: Easy lines & rivets

    Great work Leroy
    Your plane looks really nice... I'm just about at this stage on a F-18 and I'm going to try out your method
    I've been doing test pieces and like the result
    \"It\'\'\'\'s not personal, Sonny. It\'\'\'\'s strictly business.\"

  25. #50
    Leroy Gardner's Avatar
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    RE: Easy lines & rivets

    Thanks Ron101, if you get uniform depth with the rivets they will really show nicely, thats the key to success with these kind of details. Good that you are doing the tests, different paints will fill differently and it's important to know that. One thing I found out about base/clear coat finishes is the base coat is alot like laquer, light and covers well with 2 light wet coats rather than 1 medium wet coat. When you paint it use the least pressure possible and go straight at it, believe it or not those impressions can cause wash out of paint in the lines and rivets.

    You may be well experienced at this and know this stuff but alot of guys do'nt. I use a HVLP at no more than 15 lb's and not under 10 lb's., small parts I use an air brush around the same pressure, paint viscosity determins much of that. Ron I see you around on other posts and I hope to see your work, right here would be fine. Hope your results are wonderful, they surely can be Leroy
    Leroy Tiger Club # 53, TF 1/5th P-51 mustang
    Eagle 2 11, bashed Tiger 60, Spacewalker 11 1/4 scale
    P-51 Mustang Brotherhood #28, Sig Brotherhood #12
    If it works for you there is still a wrong way


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