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Thread: First bipe


  1. #26
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    RE: First bipe

    "The rudder in the turns thing is most likely an adverse yaw caused by a lack of aileron differential. "

    I would argue that rudders are intended for "yaw" maneuvers, and ailerons for "roll" maneuvers. Therefore rudder in turns, and ailerons to keep wings level.

    Les

  2. #27
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    RE: First bipe

    With all due respect, getting the tail up early on takeoff in a taildragger can lead to groundloops. Keeping the tailwheel on the ground at low speed is an aid in ground-handling.
    I might not be very good, but I'm fun to watch!

  3. #28

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    RE: First bipe

    That's if you have a tailwheel.

    Harry

  4. #29
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    RE: First bipe

    Lol. Who would want a bipe without a tailwheel?
    I might not be very good, but I'm fun to watch!

  5. #30

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    RE: First bipe

    Most bipes I have like power to land. I would set the throttle on the downwind to hold it level and as soon as I turned for approach I would start dropping the throttle a click or two until it was at the decent rate I wanted. Then I would just let it settle on the ground and then drop the throttle almost to idle. They would roll out nicely and then drop the tail. I fly off grass so a flip is common unless done properly. It takes practice.

  6. #31

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    RE: First bipe


    ORIGINAL: eddieC

    Lol. Who would want a bipe without a tailwheel?
    Well I have one. Just a skid and makes for very interesting and challanging flying

    Harry


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    RE: First bipe

    Great stuff guys thanks. So far I have programed 50% aileron differential {enough?]. I also mixed in a little rudder with the ailerons [yes or no]. Keep the speed up when landing. I also have a tail skid,as per the plans. I wont have to worry about cross winds as I have a large grass field. This is gonna be interesting.

  8. #33
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    RE: First bipe

    Flyallday,
    Keeping the tail on the ground helps during takeoff and landing, wheel or skid. When you run out of rudder authority on landing, or raise the tail before you have good rudder authority on takeoff, is how groundloops happen. Your skid acts much like a locked tailwheel on a full-size. This is a good example of full-scale ops informing our RC activity. 

    One thing people forget is the double whammy of P-factor, gyroscopic precession, and a tailwheel. If you raise the tail too soon on takeoff, P-factor yaws the plane left in proportion to the speed of the attitude change (it's like pushing from the rear on the right side of the prop disc) and, if you don't have enough rudder authority, you're going into the weeds (or the pits!). It's hardly a concern on landing, as the torque is reduced and the rudder and fin are already flying. Sudden power changes or gusts during landing can upset that apple cart on landing still, so fly it until it's parked. 
    I might not be very good, but I'm fun to watch!

  9. #34

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    RE: First bipe

    Well I don't have differential or rudder mix and my Camel is a pleasure (blast) in the air. There are more experienced people here that will chime in.

    Harry

  10. #35

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    RE: First bipe


    ORIGINAL: eddieC

    Flyallday,
    Keeping the tail on the ground helps during takeoff and landing, wheel or skid. When you run out of rudder authority on landing, or raise the tail before you have good rudder authority on takeoff, is how groundloops happen. Your skid acts much like a locked tailwheel on a full-size. This is a good example of full-scale ops informing our RC activity.
    One thing people forget is the double whammy of P-factor, gyroscopic precession, and a tailwheel. If you raise the tail too soon on takeoff, P-factor yaws the plane left in proportion to the speed of the attitude change (it's like pushing from the rear on the right side of the prop disc) and, if you don't have enough rudder authority, you're going into the weeds (or the pits!). It's hardly a concern on landing, as the torque is reduced and the rudder and fin are already flying. Sudden power changes or gusts during landing can upset that apple cart on landing still, so fly it until it's parked.
    Thanks for the tips, and I agree with you about keeping the tail on the ground until the rudder has a chance to work. All my planes are taildraggers but this bipe seems to have a mind of its own. I have watched videos of real A/C and they have the same challanges. I for one love a challange. Again, thanks for the input.

    Harry


  11. #36
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    RE: First bipe


    ORIGINAL: fly20

    Great stuff guys thanks. So far I have programed 50% aileron differential {enough?]. I also mixed in a little rudder with the ailerons [yes or no]. Keep the speed up when landing. *I also have a tail skid,*as per the plans.* I wont have to worry about cross winds as I have a large grass field. This is gonna be interesting.
    50% aileron differential is alot. In my experience around 10% is all that is needed.
    There is no such thing as too much power.

  12. #37

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    RE: First bipe

    Rudder should be mandatory for any plane. It's called a co-ordinated turn.

  13. #38
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    RE: First bipe


    ORIGINAL: LesUyeda

    "The rudder in the turns thing is most likely an adverse yaw caused by a lack of aileron differential. "

    I would argue that rudders are intended for "yaw" maneuvers, and ailerons for "roll" maneuvers. Therefore rudder in turns, and ailerons to keep wings level.

    Les

    It would appear we are talking about two seperate typs of bipe here however some trimming methods work for both. Most of my experience is with aerobatic types, Ultimates, Pitts, Skybolts ect. Without aileron differential when an aileron command is applied most airplanes will yaw to the opposite direction. This is because the downward aileron produces more drag then the upward aileron. With differential set up correctly the airplane will exibit a more true roll axis when aileron is applied. This is going to make any airplane easier to fly. The last bipe I had ( Texas Model Planes Bucker Jungman ) did actually need 50% differential to get clean rolls without yaw coupling.
    Of course it's true, I read it on the Internet.

  14. #39
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    RE: First bipe


    ORIGINAL: mike31

    Rudder should be mandatory for any plane. It's called a co-ordinated turn.
    Agreed, I do think that rudder use is very important. That being said, having to use rudder to correct for an aiplane that just needs a little trimming IMO takes some of the enjoyment out of flying said airplane.

    Of course it's true, I read it on the Internet.

  15. #40
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    RE: First bipe

    Some models, particulary older scale models, do require rudder to coordinate the turn. This sometimes can not be trimmed out. Use of a aileron to rudder mix is the way to go here.
    There is no such thing as too much power.

  16. #41
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    RE: First bipe

    I fly a GP Super Stearman with an OS 160 and an H9 Fokker D7, modified, with an OS 95. I have owned an H9 Camel as well, OS 65LA. I have a buddy who is a scale WW1 builder who has me pilot his creations as well. Ive flown his SE 5, Spad and coming up is an Albatross and a Neuport 28.

    What you have to understand with all of these planes is that no two fly alike and you have to respect each type. Thats what would give them different advantages in combat.
    Whats common among the scale bipes is they have narrow gear, high CG's, and a short nose and/or short tail.

    Of all of these bipes Ive flown I would suggest the SE5 for a beginner. It has wing dihedral and a longer nose with a good amount of tail surface area. It responds well on the ground and in the air.

    When taking off with these bipes the basic procedure I use is to hold up elevator during taxi, fade that off back to neutral as I add power. Use rudder as needed to go straight. Once the tail is flying begin to pull back as the plane speeds up.

    Landing is the part where you need to really understand your planes characteristics. As all of the guys have said you must be on power when approaching the runway but what nobody has elaborated on is why beyond the obvious high drag character of bipes and especially classic bipes. The reason is that bipes will flip over if you cut the power abruptly especially on grass. The drag of the wheels will allow the high CG of the plane to take over and flip the plane on its back. You should touch down and roll out on power and then bring back the power to taxi power, or slightly higher, gradually waiting for the wings to stall out and the tail to settle. Once the tail is on the ground you should have a slight bit of power on to keep air on your tail surfaces. Cutting the power to idle will also take away your positive control. On a paved runway a bipe should not flip over, they can but not generally, but they will veer off line out of control if you cut power too soon. Again the high CG and landing gear design coupled with a short tail, worse if there is a tail skid, all contribute to loss of control if you dont learn to handle the plane correctly.

    This is how I approach bipes with or without tail wheels, high or low performance.

    The GP Super Stearman has great overall performance and I fly the heck out of this plane, no mods, as is. Its my favorite all around biplane, its scale-ish, its big enough, and it looks great in the air. Landings are a challenge because it requires a very specific routine to pull off a good looking scale landing. I call it doing it by the numbers but its a lot of fun. Do it wrong and it will bounce, do it right and its very slick.

    Thats my $0.02, I got sucked into bipes after flying one, you will too if you give them a chance.
    Like a midget in a urinal I knew I had to stay on my toes...

  17. #42
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    RE: First bipe

    I hate to trump all you guys but I was fortunate enough to aquire Steve Strickers original TOC Ultimate 8 years ago, this is one phenomenol flying aircraft. I removed the original 4.2 glo conversion and bolted my Brison 6.4 on the nose and never looked back. In all my years of flying I've never witnessed a plane with such crisp and straight characteristics, uplines, downlines, Knifedge, all effortless, I just love this airplane and it was built in 1990 and he flew it until 1995 always placing in the top 5, he beat everyone with the exception of Chip Hyde, he finally beat chip in 1996 with an Extra 300.

    A bit more about the ultimate, it has a 79"WS and the fuse is 92", tracks straight as an arrow even on the ground, it is considered 37% and was built up in MD. utilizing a GL Hobbies Ultimate. The wings are balsa sheeted foam (one piece) maybe 1" thick, the aileron servos stick through, fiberglass fuse with foam formers laminated with paper, all up weight is about 24 lbs. There was a backup Ultimate with plug-in wings he never flew in competion and was destroyed on takeoff after he sold it.
    RED RIGHT RETURN!

  18. #43
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    RE: First bipe

    The Ultimate is an example of a bipe that handles almost nothing like any other bipe! The thin wings and clean lines allow for landings that act more like a monoplane.

    As far as the aircraft at hand, the BUSA pup, you should not have any surprises. They fly great. One thing though, the rigging that BUSA recommends sometimes lends itself to an aircraft that climbs, so be ready for this on takeoff. This is a symptom of positive incidence angle relative to the stab. This is the case at least with the triplane and the Fokker DVII. Have fun and good luck!
    \"let\'\'\'\'s just say, they will be satisfied with less\" Ming the Merciless

  19. #44

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    RE: First bipe

    Well knowing that flying season is coming to an end here soon, I went to the field this morning, despite the misty, cold conditions and had 2 nice flights. Like you said it did take a bunch of down clicks and I it did bounce it a few timesthe first landing, but all in all I'll take it. Now I can add the extras to itover the winter. Thanks to everyone for taking the time to post theirexpert advice. It was much appreciated.

  20. #45

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    RE: First bipe

    Your PUP is no different than any other tail dragger but it has one additional wing. Tail moment is the key to the way the plane behaves in the air or on the ground. The longer the tail moment the more longitudinal stability. Your PUP is designed to be agile in all three axis and lacks a long tail moment arm. With this said your major problem will be in takeoff and that is where your skills come into play. You will be using; rudder, throttle and elevator control to track and control airspeed prior to rotation. My first biplane was a GP Steerman which had a long tail moment and presented few problems. My next and last bipe was a BH Pitts S1S and this is what is called short coupled. The Pitts was what you would call squirrelly on take-off until you mastered the three control inputs I mentioned previously. Most is not all biplanes can be landed three point however the Pitts most be landed on the mains. Your PUP should be flow off a grass field and this will help during takeoff. Others have mentioned maintaining the proper airspeed during landing and again this is something that is learned through trial and error. Find some information on the full scale model and its' flight characteristics and this may also help.


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