Top_Gunn

My Feedback: (6)

Well, that's what I've said a couple of times, but he insists that he "holds" rudder. You must be right. I don't question the quality of his landings, but telling beginners that the way to fly in a crosswind is to "hold" rudder into the wind will either confuse them or cost them a plane or two, because (as I think you realize) it can't be done. We've also been told by another poster that the way to fly in a crosswind is to keep the downwind wing low and hold rudder into the wind to compensate. Again, that can be done, but it's bad advice for a beginner.

The real lesson of this thread is "don't do things with your airplane just because someone you don't know tells you to."

cfircav8r

My Feedback: (1)

Like I said don't take everything as gospel, do a little research and confirm it first. These forum are a great source of knowledge, but unfortunately also a great source of urban legend, old wives tales, hearsay, and flat out bad science. Speed knows how to set up a plane for the type of flying he does, but it is inappropriate for a beginner and most don't want to fly that style of flying and don't have that type of plane so some of his advice is not pertinent to the scenario.

sensei

I honestly believe the real lesson to this thread is to set your own goals and practice them one by one. If you really want to cross over that threshold then you must put in the stick time because all the armchair internet chatter in the world won't get you there, the stick time will!

Bob

speedracerntrixie

My Feedback: (29)

I think we are all opening up and understanding one anothers perspective a bit better now. You guys are correct that most of my flying skills have evolved around IMAC. I do however race in a warbird series. My airplanes are not what I would call really heavily loaded. Worst case is my unlimited bird that weighs 6.25 lbs with 550 sq in. Even with the race planes I will correct headding and landing position with rudder. I do in fact on cross wind conditions hold rudder during 99% of the flight with the IMAC type airplanes. No I am not doing a constant turn, it's simply putting the nose into the wind some and crabbing so I can keep the same depth in the box untill a cross box manuever puts me further out. This is done on up and down lines as well and it's all about holding the airplanes position relitive to the pilots position. Yes the argument can be made that telling a beginner to do the same can be confusing, then again most beginners are confused at step 1 when we tell them to move the lever down in order to go up right? The fact is that the OP recognised the need for the next level of flight control which IMO means he is ready. I'm obviously a fan of using rudder, a " Point and Steer " method if you will. I agree there are other way of going about this as in just about anything. I however do not agree that teaching someone to handle crosswinds by banking into the wind. I just don't see where that is going to help him in the final approach to landing. IMO the last thing he is going to want to do is expose less of his wing to lift when he is low and slow. Keep in mind that most beginners are still learning to use throttle as well. I do beleive that starting a new pilot on rudder and throttle skills as early as possibe is important. Although I did not teach him to fly, I did coach a young man named Todd Bridges through his first couple IMAC contests. Not that I can take much credit for his success but I do hope that during those early flights having me constantly tell him where to apply rudder helped him to get the level he is at now.

cfircav8r

My Feedback: (1)

The wing low method is used on landing only to keep the nose pointed down the runway and not drift off. This allows you to land without putting a side load on the gear as you touch down. In flight it is bank to a heading that gives you the desired ground track then roll level to maintain that heading. In flight rudder is used to keep the nose pointed into the relative wind or for aerobatic manuevers.

speedracerntrixie

My Feedback: (29)

What I don't get about this is that the outside influence ( Crosswind ) is still present and using this method will require several adjustments. Because in a full scale airplane you really have no way of gauging the direction or velocity the cross wind it would appear to me you are simply making compass corrections over a long distance. Very different to what we feel and see as model pilots.


In flight rudder is used to keep the nose pointed into the relative wind or for aerobatic manuevers.

Again because it is nearly impossible for a full scale pilot to judge his course based on ground visual feedback this works but standing on the ground flying a model we have great visual feedback on positioning. I see some of your points on the full scale side however I still see where their application to model flight is lacking.

91zulu

My Feedback: (2)

Also aileron into the wind is a good way to prevent a wind gust lifting that wing and rolling you over. The up aileron helps keep the wing down on the side that the wind is blowing from. That is also the primary reason why it is used in full scale flying. The opposite way as Speed does can get a trainee in trouble with the down aileron on the side the wind is blowing. A good gust especially close to the ground and over it goes. It is easier for the wind to roll a plane over with the help of a down aileron than with it up. In the show Flying Wild Alaska there are times when landings were made with full aileron deflection with gusts in excess of 40 knots.

cfircav8r

My Feedback: (1)

You should go up in a full scale. I think you would be amazed at exactly how much you can see and feel what is happening

speedracerntrixie

My Feedback: (29)

I never said anything about aileron. All of my airplanes are set up to have true control fuction. This means that with a rudder input all the airplane does is yaw, there is no roll cross couple. I do realize that with most trainer type airplanes this is not possibe so the end result would be some yaw and roll into the wind with nuetral ailerons. I see no down side to this. I have seen several episodes of that show. I enjoyed watching the progression of Ariel although after seeing her pull the C 150 off the runway into a 30 degree climb I was convinced she would end up killing herself.

This is a good example of what I am trying to convey, with a higher wing loading, less power and less effective control surfaces different techniques are going to be used. I would hope that you would agree that even modern R/C trainers have a higher power to weight and more positive control surfaces then most prop driven airplanes in that show. Excess power in most cases makes things easier.

speedracerntrixie

My Feedback: (29)

I have some flight time on a C 172. I found it most difficult to fly VFR in a strait line as there was no real reference point. I could feel gusts and P factor when playing with the throttle that obviously changed my course but I was unable to immediatly see the change in heading the way I can when flying a model.


Gentlemen. We could go on for pages like this I'm sure but please remember that the OP's question was about his next steps to becoming a better R/C pilot.

91zulu

My Feedback: (2)

Now I see why someone said that you would be in a turn with just rudder input. Ok then I guess it is the way you have your bird set up. Because I am also now confused as to how your plane does not do a flat turn with just rudder. You got me on that one. And BTW that is generally how mid and low wing aerobatic planes behave with rudder input.
Yes true thrust to weight for rc trainers is way better than full scale. So ok you have seen the show so you know why some of us was a bit confused as to your method VS what is more commonly used for BOTH RC and Full scale. The caps is for those that think the controls are different for FS and does not apply to RC.
Now for those that think FS flying is different to RC , you are correct. Many FS pilots found that out the hard way on their first RC try. What they found out was with a remote in their hand things happen a lot faster than sitting in a cockpit.

sensei

Now I see why someone said that you would be in a turn with just rudder input. Ok then I guess it is the way you have your bird set up. Because I am also now confused as to how your plane does not do a flat turn with just rudder. 91-Zulu

Airplanes with dihedral generally turn and bank with rudder input, airplanes with no dihedral generally yaw with rudder impute. The stuff I fly mostly these days have no dihedral and when I make the statement that I carry rudder into the wind on final I am only carrying enough rudder to maintain a desired heading by yawing the airplane towards the wind and I also breath on the ailerons as necessary due too any gusting that may be present. It's really that simple.

Bob

john josey

Tips to make you a better pilot - Step outside your comfort zone, even only one foot outside, every flying session.

                                                  - Give yourself a scare at least once every session, that way you'll know you definatly have at least one foot out.

                                                  - Try and have three or four flights per session.

                                                  - Go flying little and often.

Top_Gunn

My Feedback: (6)

It is certainly possible to set up a good crab angle with rudder alone, whether the plane has dihedral or not. What we have yet to see in this thread is an explanation of why turning toward the wind that way is better than turning in the usual way. For planes whose ailerons become ineffective at low speeds, turning with the rudder to keep on track on the final approach is useful, though even with those planes a coordinated turn using both rudder and ailerons works just fine. Apart from aileron ineffectiveness with some planes, there's no reason why people who don't ordinarily turn with rudder alone should use a completely different technique on final. Encouraging beginners to do this doesn't help them and makes flying more complicated.

bogbeagle

All of my airplanes are set up to have true control fuction. This means that with a rudder input all the airplane does is yaw, there is no roll cross couple.






I would be brazen enough to say that this is impossible, save at a specific A of A.

sensei

OK first thing is nobody said anything about encouraging beginners in this thread, in fact most that have responded seam to be seasoned pilots that are interested in stepping up their game. So now that we have that out of the way, what I am trying to explain to you is most aerobatic R/C pilots I know land this way in cross winds or fly the pattern in wind, thats it. I agree with you all the way, it depends on the aircraft type as how it will react to this control impute and everyone needs to understand that if they want to get in tune with their own airplane then practicing with it is key to their success. Look, I came up through the ranks just like many of you, I taught myself to fly a very long time ago after flying C/L, and F/F for years is when I started flying R/C, if you flew model airplanes, then you had to build them yourself. So I built and flew trainers, sport planes speed planes, pattern and war birds planes for years before I ever got into IMAC and 3D planes. So believe me when I say that if I was still flying stuff like A Sig Kadets all the way through war birds I would not land them that way because with a high wing trainer, or many of those over weight war birds, it just feels very unnatural on the sticks, but again the only real way one is going to understand that is to get out there and burn gas and Practice, practice, practice. Get to know the boundaries of your own airplane and then explore going beyond. And I completely agree with Speed, a properly setup airplane just makes everything better...

Bob

Top_Gunn

My Feedback: (6)

Don't see a reason there, Bob.

speedracerntrixie

My Feedback: (29)

All things equal you are correct. Obviously this would be most effective in level flight but I think you would be surprised just how little roll couple there is at a high AOA. To be honest I find it very difficult to explain that most guys from what I typically see at the field only really go about 1/4 of the way to trimming airplanes. Even sport airplanes will benifit from going through the process from start to finish. It usually takes me around 50 flights to get an airplane trimmed correctly. even after that is remains a work in process.


The basics to a well trimmed airplane is getting everything to work together. During the design phase of the airplane getting the dihedral correct and working together with thrust line and horiz stab placement is key. Most manufactures of aerobatic ARFs have tis pretty well sorted out. Most if you notice have the top of the wing flat. If you start comparing models to full scale counterparts you will see that in most cases the thrust line and stab placements have been lowered. All this contributes to an airplane that has minimal control cross coupling. Then depending on what is expected of the airplane we go into fine tuning the vertical lines which is usually a thrust angle adjustment. The rest is mixed out provided that the mix volumes are very low. Then as Bob states you need to get out and burn fuel. Hone skills around that certain airplane. As you practice you will expose weak spots in the set up and will fine tune them out.

john josey

It usually takes me around 50 flights to get an airplane trimmed correctly. even after that is remains a work in process.





[/quote]

I've never spent quite that much time on a fixed wing model, but during the 1990's i flew in F3C and it was around 50-60 flights to set-up the helicopter to be ready to compete and if you crash, your starting from scratch again. And like you said, it was always a work in progress.

speedracerntrixie

My Feedback: (29)

John, I too think that it was flying helicopters that taught me to spend the time to get the model set up correctly. At one time I was a factory rep for GMP and then went to work for Century. Please try to look past the hair LOL Actually quite fashionable in 1994

john josey

Ah, the hair ! Heres one of me with my concept SR and one of my two F3C machines.

Was it you who bought Hashimoto's eagle 3's in the blackshark fusalage's at the end of the 2001 WC's ?

I can always remember seeing photos of Robert goram with his GMP jet ranger adjusting the needle valve and kissing the front it while hovering, flying inverted at the side of the road and autoing onto a small table. Only seems like yesterday !

HighPlains

My Feedback: (1)

I would agree that it takes about 50 flights to trim an airplane and taylor it's responces. I also don't think you are truly feeling it until you are feeding in a touch of right rudder during positive g manouvers and left rudder for negitive g manouvers, working with the throttle and elevator to do a simple loop.

wallace.tharp

Pretty much right on top gun, much of the problem is without study or formal instruction many damn good R/C pilots say things or word them in such a way that it's difficult to follow. Examples would be top rudder, holding rudder into the wind etc. I believe that almost all full scale aerodynamics have a place in R/C, There is as thing called "scale effect" that I admit I do nto fully understand, I think only engineers do, that said, it as all much the same. I had a couple of CFI (certified flight instructor) stuents fail the oral for not being able to state exactly what makes an airplane turn for the examiner. Seems trivial, but, if you are going to teach a student who is paying you big money to learn to fly an airplane you can not use inconcistant or inacurate termonology. I am aware that all the book learning in the world will not teach you to fly an airplane, but look at how totally gifted the electrical engineers seem with our radios and electronic gear. Long & short, there is a forward slip and a side slip to landing, both can work, BUT if one does not do a move just prior to touchdown in the that lines the wheels with the runway it ain't going to be pretty. Yes I fly R/C and no I don't do it anywhere near perfectly. PS CFIRCAV8r, Certified Flight Instructor, RC pilot, & Harrier pilot, right? I enjoy and appreciate your input. Just sayin. wallace.tharp

AM6

Hi all.
Good informative thread and thought I add my bit....
I've flown various types throughout the years and when I moved
Onto the larger warbirds I wanted to get more proficient when
Using flaps. I Asked all the local 'aces' for their advice, but answers
From various parties often differed, and Istarted to wonder if these
'aces' were actually giving good advice (certainly some of their landings
Started me wondering).

Anyhow, I decided to pay for a full days professional instruction on the subject and
I can honestly say that this was the best money I've spent on this hobby in thepast twenty years.

Yes... I did get an excellent grounding to enable me to practice full flapped landings (and go arounds etc.) but also was re-taught some
Of the most basic things that I had forgot over the years (forming bad habits).

I can still hear the instructors voice when i fly now (in my head) and this has made me more aware of what I should
Be looking for in basic flight, and I feel I am far more precise/controlled as a result.

It is quite an eye opener having someone who is a master of their trade, show you, and then explain in a way you can
Understand, 'what and why' is the correct way to do things.

I feel that unless you are in a very special club, with truly skilled pilots who are willing to share knowledge, tuition can be worthwhile no
matter what your current level.

Happy landings
Am6

bogbeagle

Interesting ... you hit upon an important issue, re the "sharing of knowledge". Many people jealously guard their knowledge and will not share freely; they'd sooner see you learn the hard way ... or, better still, not at all.

That's been my experience, anyway.