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  1. #1
    Brad330l's Avatar
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    Single engine maiden save B25 !!

    Test flying my ol' mate Bazza's cheap and nasty (not too bad) B25 this morning I had an engine out at height and went instantly into the dreaded 'death spiral'.
    I had just finished trimming the ailerons when it happened so that was one less thing I had to deal with.
    I throttled back and righted the beast and had it pointed back to us in a gentle (gliding) decent. It was still a fair way away so I throttled up a touch and added a bit of 'opposite' rudder and managed to keep it flying at now about 50'.
    I must have really had my head together as I got it into wind and plonked it down about 20 meters away with only a twisted main UC leg the result.
    "OK Baz,, she is all yours!"
    This was test flight # 2 for the day. The first being a scratch built twin of electric power and this went off without a hitch.
    I have only ever flown five twins and had to test fly them all. This one was the most exciting and probably the most rewarding. I have now had four engine failures and brought three of them in but luckily they all seem to be set up for a simple return. This one was heading down, down ,down.

    So how many of you have saved the day and brought home a wounded angel?

    Cheers,

    Brad
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  2. #2
    Rocketman_'s Avatar
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    RE: Single engine maiden save B25 !!

    I have.
    NORTHEAST R/C MODEL CLUB
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  3. #3
    Wayne22's Avatar
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    RE: Single engine maiden save B25 !!

    me too....I experienced a very similar situation. Fortunately, it did exactly what the Flight Sim predicted, and I was able to recover. It didn't have enough power to maintain level flight on one engine, but I managed to drag it in and land across the runway

    All I ask is for a chance to prove that money can\'t make me happy......

  4. #4
    kram's Avatar
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    RE: Single engine maiden save B25 !!

    Good Job, Brad !

    Saving an engine-out twin, especially a warbird, gives you a rush of satisfaction and well-earned confidence that you can handle the next one

    Here are some videos of my saves and (not quite) saves over the years

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tqliETnWOI

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJjgzPfwLek&feature=fvsr

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjXW5thFSbw

    As you can see, I took the chicken way out on my B-25, but wound up with no damage due to a soft straight glide and tall corn

    Every situation is different, but the principles of a save are the same:

    1) Do whatever you must to fix the attitude

    2) Figure out the right amount of rudder and throttle to keep it flying

    3) Fly it home (or softly to the ground)

    All that aside, by far the BEST way to survive an engine-out is to not have one. Requires enormous amounts of patience and attention to details of whatever propulsion system you have: everything from spinners to fuel clunks.


    mt
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  5. #5

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    RE: Single engine maiden save B25 !!

    How about two outta three?  First time engine out I was able to land.  Second time had radio problem with aileron fully extented, able to land with rudder.  But third time?  Was flying into the sun unable to see it.

    http://youtu.be/tgFYz145nZ8


  6. #6
    kram's Avatar
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    RE: Single engine maiden save B25 !!

    2/3 is an outstanding succes ratio.

    For P-38's, my success rate isn't even 50%.

    Most other twins are easier to save.

    Thanks for the video

    Unique perspective. Tough camera.

    Looks like it was in a death spiral before you could even see it.

    WHY do we do this???

    TWINSANITY !!


    mt

  7. #7
    kram's Avatar
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    RE: Single engine maiden save B25 !!

    Lest we become too enamored of our tales of amateur twin saves:

    I witnessed Greg Hahn at Top Gun 2005 have an engine-out situation on TANDELAYO during a competition flight.

    He brought it back for a completely smooth, nose-up landing on the center-stripe of the runway.

    He "only" scored a 94 on that flight because he had to shorten his routine, but that was his lowest-scoring flight and he went on to win the Big Cheese

    A real pro!
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  8. #8
    Fili's Avatar
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    RE: Single engine maiden save B25 !!

    I was able to nurse my OV10 Bronco three quarters around the field when I powered up on an too fast approach and lost the right engine on power up. I kept feeding in just enough opposite rudder to keep her level and from snapping. After getting enough altitude, and about half way around the field, I banked in for the landing...I came up just a little short and the right wingtip hit the tall grass at the edge of the field spinning her out. The only damage was to one of the landing gear struts... and yes, I had to change my pants.
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    Phil
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    Gimme a vector Victor....

  9. #9
    Brad330l's Avatar
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    RE: Single engine maiden save B25 !!


    ORIGINAL: Rocketman_

    I have.
    Care to elaborate?

    Brad
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  10. #10
    Brad330l's Avatar
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    RE: Single engine maiden save B25 !!


    ORIGINAL: Wayne22

    me too....I experienced a very similar situation. Fortunately, it did exactly what the Flight Sim predicted, and I was able to recover. It didn't have enough power to maintain level flight on one engine, but I managed to drag it in and land across the runway

    ANY landing direction is acceptable in this situation.

    Brad
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    Spitfire Brotherhood # 5

  11. #11
    Brad330l's Avatar
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    RE: Single engine maiden save B25 !!

    ORIGINAL: kram

    Good Job, Brad !

    Saving an engine-out twin, especially a warbird, gives you a rush of satisfaction and well-earned confidence that you can handle the next one

    Here are some videos of my saves and (not quite) saves over the years

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tqliETnWOI

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJjgzPfwLek&feature=fvsr

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjXW5thFSbw

    As you can see, I took the chicken way out on my B-25, but wound up with no damage due to a soft straight glide and tall corn

    Every situation is different, but the principles of a save are the same:

    1) Do whatever you must to fix the attitude

    2) Figure out the right amount of rudder and throttle to keep it flying

    3) Fly it home (or softly to the ground)

    All that aside, by far the BEST way to survive an engine-out is to not have one. Requires enormous amounts of patience and attention to details of whatever propulsion system you have: everything from spinners to fuel clunks.


    mt
    Good work kram, some big saves there. Yes for sure it is better not to have an engine out so patience in setting up the engines is a must.
    Good work guys.

    Cheers for the clips.

    Brad
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  12. #12

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    RE: Single engine maiden save B25 !!

    Good to hear that you did everything right, Brad. I've had over a dozen SUCCESFULL single engine landings on a number of scale twins. How about 7 single engine landings out of the first 12 flites on a B-25. Cause was a defective K&B engine that was machined with the wrong tolerances from the factory. Remember, it's not if you'll lose an engine, it's when. I've now converted to all electric planes- engine out problem solved!!!

  13. #13
    Eddie P's Avatar
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    RE: Single engine maiden save B25 !!

    Good job on the B-25 save!

    I actually lost one of the four motors on this electric EDF a few months ago. Yes, it can even happen to electric models too It was sporty for sure, but with the big rudder, it was easy to manage. It happened after takeoff on the climb out. At first I thought it was a flight control failure but fortunately I used the rudder in time to get her straightened out. Multis are hard to tell when you have lost one due to just sound, especially when you have 4 engines. I drug her around the pattern milking the rudder and limited my maximum power to maintain control, to keep the wings level, and was able to land unscathed. I felt pretty lucky. The engine failure was caused by a "high time" brushed motor that lost power and was smoking (The original throw away motors were 12 years old and well past the point of me needing to change them, I should have known better). Since then the model has been grounded until I can replace all motors with new brushless ones, I have the parts to get her back flying soon.
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    Eddie P - NOT sponsored - I pay the bills of hobby manufacturers with my purchases - Free to evaluate products honestly

  14. #14
    Brad330l's Avatar
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    RE: Single engine maiden save B25 !!

    Great save for a very nice looking model there Ed.
    Welcome to the club.

    Brad
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  15. #15
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    RE: Single engine maiden save B25 !!

    As I have not flown more than single engine models, please excuse me the ignorant question:

    If location regarding runway, wind and altitude is favorable; wouldn't be safer to kill the engine that remains working (eliminating that disturbing off-center force) and to perform a dead stick landing?
    Lnewqban - "God will not look you over for medals, degrees or diplomas, but for scars. He has achieved success who has worked well, laughed often, and loved much." - Elbert Hubbard

  16. #16

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    RE: Single engine maiden save B25 !!

    I was test flying a friends Yellow P-38. Took off and all was good. Carrying good speed, but my buddy got nervous and asked me to slow the plane down. When I did, the right engine went to pure idle. It happened in a bad place. It started to spin, so I reduced power and pointed the nose down; was able to prevent the spin, but it went behind and disappeard behind a clump of trees. I was flying blind, but visioned what the plane was doing, so I leveled it out and goosed the throttle. To my surprise, the P-38 came nose up from behind the trees. As soon as I saw it, I reduced the throttle again, and leveled the wings. I had a good bit of altitude and was close to the field. So, I pointed the nose slightly down and goosed the throttle again for a short bit. The right engine did not come up andi started to roll again. I throttled the good engine back again and was able to stretch the field and land hot with absolutely no damage. In all my years of twin flying, this was only my second engine out. In the end, while an impressive save, I have to chalk it up to luck. Upon investigation, it turned out the the set screw on the right engine Du-Bro EZ connect had vibrated out...no throttle on #2![&:]

    Jeff
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  17. #17
    Eddie P's Avatar
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    RE: Single engine maiden save B25 !!

    ORIGINAL: Lnewqban

    As I have not flown more than single engine models, please excuse me the ignorant question:

    If location regarding runway, wind and altitude is favorable; wouldn't be safer to kill the engine that remains working (eliminating that disturbing off-center force) and to perform a dead stick landing?
    Just for some feedback, your question is a great one and your instincts are solid! You should be flying multiengine models Most anyone would do this if they could (unless they don't know). What happens that prevents this.. is if,

    1) The engine failure goes unnoticed before a snap roll and spin causes a crash even at idle power due to altitude, ideas and airspeed running below survivable levels all at once, or:
    2) The engine attempted dead stick landing would immediately cause utter destruction due to underlying terrain, altitude and airspeed... and let's say, the initial try at handling the engine failure goes well enough to justify the attempt to fly a pattern to a point where a controlled dead stick approach can be made.

    Most guys who make successful engine out approaches are either trained on engine failures, lucky, or they were fat dumb and happy enough in airspeed, altitude and position to manage a safe low power landing to the runway. In my case my model was a 4 engine model and that helped - it was also modestly powered, and that also helped (modest meaning low power, this may run against instincts but more on this in the next paragraph). My rudder was plenty big enough to manage the one of four engines that died. In my case as well, the terrain ahead would have shredded my model to bits if I just gave up, pulled power and landed straight ahead. I was handling the problem well enough and made the decision to continue handling the problem all the way around the pattern until a controlled low power approach could be made to the runway.

    Most scale model airplanes let alone sporty ones have far more power (power to weight) than their full scale counterparts. A full scale airplane can be safely managed with an engine failed due to the minimum controllable airspeed being fairly reasonably low compared to operational airspeed normally flown - that's due to reasonable and modest power available. A multiengine model airplane with a huge power to weight ratio compared to full size (and that's typical for models) may not actually have a minimum controllable airspeed with one engine out that is below it's cruise speed at full power!! Engine failures in model airplanes almost always need an immediate power reduction to even have a hope in controlling the model aerodynamically due to the normally high levels of power available and the asymmetrical issue with such high power. Dead stick may not be necessary if flown well but it may be if the design is such (thin airfoils, small control surfaces, short coupled) and power levels are such (lots of power and hard to fine tune) that it's too tricky to try otherwise.
    Eddie P - NOT sponsored - I pay the bills of hobby manufacturers with my purchases - Free to evaluate products honestly

  18. #18
    Eddie P's Avatar
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    RE: Single engine maiden save B25 !!

    ORIGINAL: F4u5

    I was test flying a friends Yellow P-38. Took off and all was good. Carrying good speed, but my buddy got nervous and asked me to slow the plane down. When I did, the right engine went to pure idle. It happened in a bad place. It started to spin, so I reduced power and pointed the nose down; was able to prevent the spin, but it went behind and disappeard behind a clump of trees. I was flying blind, but visioned what the plane was doing, so I leveled it out and goosed the throttle. To my surprise, the P-38 came nose up from behind the trees. As soon as I saw it, I reduced the throttle again, and leveled the wings. I had a good bit of altitude and was close to the field. So, I pointed the nose slightly down and goosed the throttle again for a short bit. The right engine did not come up andi started to roll again. I throttled the good engine back again and was able to stretch the field and land hot with absolutely no damage. In all my years of twin flying, this was only my second engine out. In the end, while an impressive save, I have to chalk it up to luck. Upon investigation, it turned out the the set screw on the right engine Du-Bro EZ connect had vibrated out...no throttle on #2![&:]

    Jeff
    And that is probably one of the best "war stories" in model aviation. Well done! Way to keep in the fight until the end and the end was sweet indeed. Would have been a viral video if someone had it on camera!

    Doesn't this sort of stuff always happen on "test flights" for buddies?? My favorite landings of all are when I'm finished test flying a buddies new plane. I'm always happy to be done with those.
    Eddie P - NOT sponsored - I pay the bills of hobby manufacturers with my purchases - Free to evaluate products honestly

  19. #19
    miklos's Avatar
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    RE: Single engine maiden save B25 !!

    I've had many engine out experiences with my 80" ASM P-61. The last one finally took her in.
    This was one of the ones though with a happy ending. Look closely at that left engine. It's dead in the water...
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  20. #20
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    RE: Single engine maiden save B25 !!

    Thank you for your detailed response, Eddie !
    Lnewqban - "God will not look you over for medals, degrees or diplomas, but for scars. He has achieved success who has worked well, laughed often, and loved much." - Elbert Hubbard

  21. #21

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    RE: Single engine maiden save B25 !!

    I'm oh-for-one. I built a CMP Mosquito and went electric. On the maiden flight, it took right off and just minor trims had it flying very well. I made a low pass over the field and as I'm about 30 feet off the ground and right at the upwind end of the field, the port Rimfire motor lets out with a shriek and a squeal and the prop seizes. We have don't have much fly-over off the ends of our field, so I tried to turn into the live engine but couldn't get it to come around. The minute I got off the rudder, the "death spiral" got me. Broke it up pretty good. I thought about mourning it, but my wife told me to go buy another one, so I did. No time to mourn! In the meantime, I've flown a BH Mossie, a BH B-25 and a Nitroplanes P-38 all electric with quite good success. I'm hoping to be oh-for-one for a long, long time. Keep 'em flying!


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