maxiemac

I have been following Jetfixr's thread on his Turbo Commander build and picked up good info that has helped in me in the start of my build of a Palmer Plans Aero Commander Shrike.

The plan is to model mine on an Australian Shrike registration number VH-UJV that was flown at an Avalon Air Show some years back by Bob Hoover after he attained his Australian license to fly following the loss of his U.S. license.

In the latter part of Jetfixr's thread I indicated how I became involved with VH-UJV so I won't repeat all of that here.

I have photos in both my PC and camera some of which I will upload here shortly as this thread continues.

I think the Palmer Plans Shrike has been around for quite a while but I have no idea how many have been built or likely to be built in the future, but if there are other builders out there who would like to share their build info please feel free to contribute.

That's all for now - cheers - Maxiemac - smile it don't hurt -

swift1

Hello, I wish you sucess on your build. After following Jetfixr's thread it looks to be quite an undertaking! I too will someday build one, I bought the plans, engines,retracts, wood, and fiberglass parts back in .05 and haven't gotten around to starting it yet. I ended up building a full size Vans RV-9A instead but now that it's been done for a few years I'm looking at the Shrike again. I would be very interested in finding out which of the frames, bulkheads and other parts in the fuselage that aren't quite right on the print so I can fix them before cutting them out.
Thanks in advance, Mark

sfl

More shrike,albeit be it ARF.
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/twin...mmander-8.html

jetfixr

My Feedback: (13)

Good luck on your build! I am glad you have started a thread so we can follow along. I have subscribed and will be watching.

maxiemac

Thanks Jetfixr, I'll probably need all the help and encouragement I can get - and in reply to swift1 I'll post pics here of where I'm up to with correcting the errors in the rear formers caused by erroneous drawings. I haven't quite finished their shaping yet and will post more later.

Firstly - I found that the fuselage former drawings are smaller than the kit cutters parts (PCK) which tells me that the kit was probably cut from a master drawing - and in the copying process from the master drawing, generally the copy ends up marginally smaller than the original - one of the quirks or photocopying reproduction - I also found that the side view drawing is narrower top to bottom than the fuselage formers are high - again a quirk of copying.

I had to line up the top keel to follow the plan and found that the bottom keel had to be between 1/16" and 3/32" below the lines on the side view - if you buy the PCK cut kit be aware of this - if you are cutting your own formers then the Palmer Plans drawing is most probably a little under sized - not that it matters all that much - and my thinking is that nowadays this kit may not be all that much in demand and the drawings will most likely be not updated - also evidenced by the fact that Robart no longer make the Shrike undercarriage - now on to other things:-

These comments are in regard to the PCK cut kit I bought quite some time back, maybe 6-8 years ago - pic 1: former 18 needs a doubler, not provided in the cut kit, pics 2 & 3 show the beginnings of alterations for formers 18 thru 22, pic 4 shows those formers overlaid to give an idea of each former redesign, pic 5 shows the shelves built to allow the 1/8 balsa sheeting somewhere to attach adjacent to the 1/64" 3 ply skin on the fuselage centre, pic 6 shows four formers at position 23 - there was no former supplied in the kit where the aft section fuselage attaches to the forward section so I made former 23 again (for both fuselage sides) and then added doublers for added strength at this join.

It is highly probable I won't use the fuselage joining system shown on the plan because some of those parts were not in my cut kit, I still am having a problem working out how it is supposed to work, I liked Jetfixrs idea of bolts to hold the back to the front fuz's together but his suggestion of having to now put hatches somewhere to access these bolts is ok up to a point, but even the drawing doesn't show you how to access whatever joining system you use - so I'm probably going to use a system that some jet flyers use to join their wings to their fuselages - I just have to find that item on the website I looked at recently and post some pics here - it looks quite acceptable to me and only requires 4 small holes to put an Allen Key into to secure front to back sections.

The last pic shows my 8' x 4' piece of acoustic/pin board with my 'stuff' (read junk!) all over it on my dining room table - I'm fortunate enough to have a bench in my workshop (that I have now cleared) that will accommodate this building board - and the major reason of doing this is as follows:- I have not been over happy with the shape from the Palmer Plans of formers 18 thru 23 so I don't want to build the front section only to find when I build the aft section that the curvature of the fuselage from the squarish front section thru to the tail is out of symmetry - in other words, the fuselage looks crooked and the front and rear shapes do not transition correctly - therefore I'm moving off the dining table because it's too short to allow both front and back fuselage parts to be constructed at the same time.

I'll report more as I go along - thanks for your inputs thus far.

cheers - maxiemac - smile, it don't hurt -

jetfixr

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Looking good. Fixing those mis-shaped formers now should definitely save you some time and pain later.

swift1

Thanks Mac for the information and the photos!

maxiemac

I joined the fuselage side view drawings of front and back sections and lined everything up and pinned the front section down and then started pinning the rear section, boy you should see the variations in the curvatures of the fuz side profile.

From the cabin area flatter section, aft of that, the profiles go up and down - these drawings of the formers are all over the place - and the kit was cut from these drawings!

Pic 1 shows front and rear fuz sections together, pic 2 shows alignment rulers to make sure front and back line up, pic 3 shows the profile of variations in formers, pic 4 shows fuz formers overlaid and you can see that formers 19, 20 and 21 have too much curvature whilst the rest seem to recede better - the bigger the former the flatter the side should be and as the fuz size reduces it should gain more curvature towards the tail - more work to do here! Pic 5 shows the transition from former 17 to 18 and distance between them is only 2-3/8", pic 6 shows formers 28 & 29 are too short but f 30 fits - but will the curvature to the tail be constant? - I won't know until I fit all of them, and 'eyeball' them properly - that's it for now - cheers - maxiemac

maxiemac

An update - pics 1 and 2 show I've built more curve into the first three formers aft of the cabin section - I'm getting happier with this now but there is still a lot more to do as shown in pics 3 and 4 where you can see a the shape of the former FF28 and 29 is not allowing for a straight side to the fuselage through this section, more work to do on formers aft of FF22. Formers FF 23, FF28 and FF29 are too low at their crests and need reshaping.

The 1/8" square balsa supplied in the PCK kit varies in density and dimension and I'm finding most of the slots in the formers won't accept the stringer without forcing them in. So I've decided to open up each slot and as you can see in pic 5 there's a few to file out and this is just over half of them.

The best method I've come up with so far is to use a 1/8" Dremel parallel sided router bit to widen the slot and then using a 1/8" square file, file down until the top of the file is exactly level with the former - now the stringers go in a lot easier - and out, as I'm constantly rechecking that I've got the fuselage shape right.

Hopefully I'll get this fuz reshaping done sooner rather than later and when done I'll post pics of each modified former for others to use if needed - cheers - maxiemac.

jetfixr

My Feedback: (13)

That is looking really good. I am glad you are able to fix them now rather than later on in the build like I did. As for the different stringers, I just used them wherever. I bought all of mine separately, so I was able to pick pieces that were similar density. I also did not sheet the inside of the fuselage because I am not finishing out the interior to save weight and mine will be electric so less vibrations. Is that an Adams A500 in the background? Those are some pretty neat looking and unique airplanes. Keep up the good work!

maxiemac

Another Update - Today I went to 'Aero Commander' heaven - I had a need to resolve the fuselage side contour once and for all - no use just bumbling along and trying to 'guess' what is real - go and see the real thing - so I did.

The Maintenance Manager very kindly allowed me his time and knowledge plus access to 'all areas' to photograph what I needed.

Also, today I learned that Bob Hoover didn't fly VH-UJV at the Avalon air show as I had always thought - he flew VH-UJM - but still, I think I'll recreate UJV after the first Bridi model I put together. At that time General Aviation Maintenance allowed me access to their aircraft for me to get the details I needed so they also were part of my 'love affair' with Aero Commander Shrikes.

Pics 1 & 2 show the business front and to its left are parked four Shrikes with six more inside various hangers.

Pics 3 & 4 show what I was after - the side profile view - looks to me that from the cabin area which is more flatter than the rest (not shown here), going aft towards the tail, the curve gently increases - that is, when looking at the photos! - but for the life of me when actually standing aft looking forward the curve seems more flatter than curved - very difficult to photograph and judge an increasing curve view from the rear - what to do? - just give it my best shot and make it as progressive as I can.

And yes Jetfixr, that is an Adam A500 - in fact I have two - but that's another story - cheers - maxiemac

jetfixr

My Feedback: (13)

They do have a few Shrikes! That looks like a fun place to walk around. I was able to see Bob Hoover's show once, and it was a great show. It was very different than most other shows.

maxiemac

Hopefully this will be my final version for modifications I have to make for formers aft of the cabin on the Palmer Plans 1/5 scale Aero Commander Shrike - this has taken forever to get this far - a lot of the formers were just so inaccurate it wasn't funny and I was determined to get the fuselage shape as correct as I could and not have to do remedial work later to fix these problems - I may have to do a minor tweak here or there as I progress, but if I've got this right there shouldn't be any surprises.

All these photos were taken at the same height at about 20 inches (500mm) above the bench resting my arms on a frame I had made so that there is some evenness to the scale so that if other Shrike builders want to use these pictures and import them into a photo shop type program, there shouldn't be too much massaging to do to resize them according to the dimensions of the former drawings on the plan - well that's the plan.

Former 23 is in 4 parts because of the fuselage joining system I'm going to use. Only the end of the front section former at station 23 was in my PCK cut kit so I had to make the left and right formers for the beginning of the aft section at station 23. At that point I needed to make a decision on what method to use to join the aft section to the front.

To join the fuselage aft section to the forward section I've decided to use 4 pieces of 1/2" carbon fibre tube that will protrude out of the fuselage front section - these will enter 4 pieces of phenolic tubing located in the aft section, similar to wing joiners - there will be a piece of nylon round bar glued and locked inside each piece of carbon tube that will be drilled and tapped to accept each securing cap head bolt to be accessed from outside the fuselage via a small hole at four points around the fuz - for the phenolic tube receiving side, a hardwood collar or similar will be mounted behind former 24 on the aft fuselage section to support this tube and to take strain off the phenolic tube itself also to act as a receptacle and support for each cap head bolt - well that's the theory.

If you look closely at the 4 formers for station 23, formers 22 and 24, you will see a hole in each former corner, that when each of these formers when laid over the top of each other with reference to each former being level at the top with each other, these holes are in exactly the same position - smaller holes in F22 and F23 A & B for the carbon fibre tube, then larger holes at formers 23 C & D and F24 for each phenolic tube - the access points at the corners of former 24 is close to the fuselage skin so it shouldn't be too difficult to find the head of each cap head bolt when assembling or disassembling the front and rear halves - but then again, if it will fit in my station wagon in one piece I won't need to take it apart too often - time will tell.

I can now get stuck into gluing the formers to their top and bottom keels and laying up the longerons - the notches in the formers for these were so wildly out of alignment, it was that which made me look a lot harder at the formers, especially when trying to fit longerons between formers 18 and 19 - that transition was so far out it would have been very difficult just to bend the balsa sheeting across there - the full size Shrike photos in a previous post shows the smoothness of the curvature of the fuselage sides, not a ski ramp I would have had to fix later at F18 and F19 - and for the record, I'm heartily sick and tired of cutting new and mending not needed longeron slots in a lot of the formers, let alone filing every slot in every former with a 1/8" square file, just to make the longerons fit in their slots.

That's me for today - can't wait to see what lies ahead in building the wings and nacelles - cheers - maxiemac - smile it don't hurt

maxiemac

Oops - looks like RCU didn't like to accept all the photos I wanted to post so I'll spread them out over a couple more posts - cheers - maxiemac

maxiemac

In the last post I tried to upload 16 photos of aft formers but it seems there could be a file size limitation - so here's the first 6 of 16 - I'll see how it goes - cheers - maxiemac

maxiemac

Well this seems to be working - one more page to go

maxiemac

There, all done - sorry they had to be spread out - notice the last 2 pics - I read somewhere on another forum where a builder had used strong rare earth magnets (neodymium) to assist his building, so I thought I would try it out, and it works really well - my reason was, I find it difficult to pin plywood end on without splintering it, plus it was difficult to CA each former, mark it up and then remove it to cut slots, reaffix, re-measure to cut more slots etc etc- the balsa top and bottom keels were complaining! - this method served me well to hold each former in place when laying up the longerons to mark on each former where to cut new slots because of so many out of alignment there were when these formers were cut from the plans.

Also in the last 2 pics you will see that each magnet pair alternate between top and bottom of each former - these magnets are so strong they had to be kept well apart - and from time to time I had to remove them to cut slots etc, they did come together with a bang - and they were difficult to separate, especially the bigger ones at F18 and F23 - the person I bought them from showed me how to separate them by placing one magnet on the edge of the bench and sliding the other down and away - he also said "don't let them crash together because they will chip and splinter and don't let skin on your fingers get in the way when putting them together or pulling them apart, it hurts" - well I have banged them together a few times and kept my fingers very carefully out of the way, but so far none have broken.

I also read on another RC Builder thread where someone made a comment that Dan Palmer didn't build any of the planes he designed therefore he didn't get to the experience the building problems of his plans - I have stated before that this plan has been around for a while (1997) and I have no idea how many of this plane have been sold/made or are in current build - I think it's a fair bet that not many people these days will proceed to build this plane - but if any do then I hope this thread will be of use to them - cheers - maxiemac

maxiemac

Here we go again - because of the joining system I'm going to use I decided to double up formers F23 forward and aft and pic 1 shows the 4 formers together and the chamfer needed to maintain symmetry of the fuselage line.


Before I start to glue the formers in place I decided to take pics of each former showing left and right (when viewed from the rear) positioned together to confirm I had the opposite shapes all the same - there are some minor variations but at this stage not enough to cause reworking - and my other thinking was: other builders (if there are any) might find these pics of use - they will need to be uploaded to a photo management program for resizing. - cheers - maxiemac

maxiemac

The next lot

swift1

Thank you very much for posting the pictures of the formers. I will build one someday and am following your progress with great interest. I am debating whether or not to buy the kit or cut it myself. I guess it depends on how much "adjusting" you will have to do on the rest of your build. Am I right in thinking that the rest of the formers were done right?

I also read that thread about Dan Palmer and your build confirms what has been said. I doubt the kit cutters will take the time to fix the plans and cut the parts correctly as it will be too much work for no real payback.


Mark

maxiemac

Hi Mark - no, the rest of the formers as shown above were the worst and took the most time to fix - the reason they were not in my last post was because I had difficulty in loading them - hopefully when I post the above pics they will be seen.

If you look carefully at the outline of each former you will see where the modifications were made - I made four formers for station 23 due to the joining method I'm using - the biggest trick here was to chamfer the bottom of them so they lined up with the upward slope of the bottom keel as shown in a previous post.

I've finished sorting out the formers from the nose to the tail and today will start fitting the formers and longerons aft of the cabin - subject to working out how the wing dihedral blocks work at stations 18 and 20 and fitting them first and hopefully getting the wing dihedral settings accurate before continuing - cheers - maxiemac

jetfixr

My Feedback: (13)

Looks like you have gotten them straightened out. Now for the fun part! For planking mine, I first tried CA for glueing the plank to the structure and wood glue to glue the planks together, but I got tired of waiting for the wood glue to dry. On the aft section I just used CA for all of it. I think it turned out pretty good. I am looking forward to the rest of your build.

McLeodAviation

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I just found your build thread while searching for info on the Palmer Aero Commander Shrike. I recently ordered the plans. They should be here in a few days. The Aero Commander Shrike has always been one of my favorite airplanes. Ever since seeing the Bridi kit in Scale RC Modeler back in the late 70's and seeing a video of Bob Hoover performing aerobatics in the full scale version. Wish I could have seen his show in person. He is an awesome pilot.

I haven't fould much info on the Palmer Shrike. I also haven't find the cowls listed anywhere. I guess they are still available somewhere? Any progress on your build? I look forward to watching. Maybe I will join along with my build. First I need to study the plans before even attempting such a large project.

McLeodAviation

My Feedback: (70)

Forgot to mention I also found the build thread by jetfixr. He is doing an awesome job on his Turbo Commander and has lots of helpful info in his thread.

maxiemac

Hello Mcleod Aviation - welcome to the thread and hope you find some useful stuff here - if you've read the whole thread so far you will have learned the Palmer Plans of the Aero Commander have some inaccuracies - just be aware you will need to do quite a bit of rework of the fuselage formers as explained in the posts above - and I have found I still have more mods to do. Apart from this and Jetfixrs thread you won't find much info anywhere for this model.

The original fiberglass parts supplier for this plan were named Stan's Fiber Tech but this company now has new ownership and has been renamed Fiberetech 'n' More - 563 940 7977 - [email protected] - under the Stan's Fiber Tech name they used to show the fiberglass nose cone and cowls - but the current website does not - however don't rush into buying them because like the Palmer plan they do not have accurate outlines - I bought the Stan's Fiber Tech nose cone and cowls many years ago and recently found when trial fitting the nose cone to the fuz front, the nose cone outlines don't line up with the plans or the curvature of the fuselage front. I even lined up the Stan's Fiber Tech cowl along side a Bridi cowl I have, plus some side profile photos I have, and the cowls are also not accurate. I think what I'll be doing is getting some sandable foam and make my own plugs for these parts because the bought ones, like the plans are wrong, and it is very doubtful any updating of the plans or parts will happen anytime soon.

In answer to the second part of your question - I haven't touched my Shrike since August but have assembled a 74 inch wingspan trainer for a new student I have, plus assembled a Hangar 9 Cap232G that is now ready for it's heavy model inspection and certification flight. But I can guarantee that starting tomorrow (Dec. 26th my time) I will be restarting my build and will post some more as I continue - cheers - maxiemac