KMP vs VQ P-38: Side by side construction
12-01-2003, 01:57 AM
#26
RE: KMP vs VQ P-38: Side by side construction
Official Correction:
The Nyrod screw hole modification is a trick RV Man taught me. I can't take credit for that one. Works like a charm. On my big 3D gassers, I even use it for servo mounting screws.
The Nyrod screw hole modification is a trick RV Man taught me. I can't take credit for that one. Works like a charm. On my big 3D gassers, I even use it for servo mounting screws.
12-01-2003, 02:13 AM
#27
RE: KMP vs VQ P-38: Side by side construction
Reply to robert waldo:
Refer to my previous posts about gear and the relative cost of the planes, and of course, all judgements are reserved till after the ultimate test (flying), BUT SO FAR, I think there's clearly more value in the VQ kit. RV Man had some of the same complaints you mentioned with the KMP. He is a gifted machinist and tinkerer by nature and profession, and he thinks he has overcome the alignment problems with careful and forceful bracing and gluing. Flight performance pending, of course. I have noticed the clear superiority of the VQ kit re finish and alignment. I was not impressed with the KMP gear.
In summary, I think the VQ is a better value even at >$100 more, but:
a) I'd like for RV Man to chime in on this, and
b) In the Land of No Hangar Queens, flight performance could cancel out all of the above.
Refer to my previous posts about gear and the relative cost of the planes, and of course, all judgements are reserved till after the ultimate test (flying), BUT SO FAR, I think there's clearly more value in the VQ kit. RV Man had some of the same complaints you mentioned with the KMP. He is a gifted machinist and tinkerer by nature and profession, and he thinks he has overcome the alignment problems with careful and forceful bracing and gluing. Flight performance pending, of course. I have noticed the clear superiority of the VQ kit re finish and alignment. I was not impressed with the KMP gear.
In summary, I think the VQ is a better value even at >$100 more, but:
a) I'd like for RV Man to chime in on this, and
b) In the Land of No Hangar Queens, flight performance could cancel out all of the above.
12-01-2003, 01:35 PM
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RE: KMP vs VQ P-38: Side by side construction
Well I would have to agree with some of these other posts.
I am building the KMP and have noticed a lot of the parts are not fitting perfectly square.
I used a very aggressive sanding block on all of the mating parts to get maximum glue surface.
In this action I have sanded through some of the fiberglass. I then stopped the presses and regrouped.
I then went and "backfilled" the inner portion of all the mating surfaces with epoxy. This greatly added strength and unfortunately some weight.
I had to sand and adjust each part so that it will fit square to the next. With that completed I jigged up the plane (dry fit)
and measured it . Seems to have come out with the booms canting outward about 1/4 inch difference front to rear.
This now has created outthrust on both engines. Not a bad thing I just wish it was a little more square.
I gave my gear away to Bob and used some Very heavy duty gear from Robart. I used 630 series and 640 for the nose.
This change came up with another problem. The gear does not extend all the way into the well. Ok now time to make new gear plates.
I used 3/16 ply and made new plates and removed the old and glued the new ones up higher in the gear well.
That being done it does look a lot better and will work much better.
For those of you wondering how I did not bump into the rudder and throttle servos I am using mini servos for the rudders and 2 minis for the elevator buried in the tail group.
Also I am stripping all the covering off and will glass the balsa and repaint to match the famous all red YIPPEE P-38 plane.
With all these modifications I am really only using the fiberglass and balsa parts.,
I am not at all disapointed with my purchase. I would buy another tomorrow.
I always redo all arfs to make them as sturdy and pretty as possible.
As the Kram and RV man said .......It is all up to the flight test.
I am hoping all this work will be a good payoff.
Greg
I am building the KMP and have noticed a lot of the parts are not fitting perfectly square.
I used a very aggressive sanding block on all of the mating parts to get maximum glue surface.
In this action I have sanded through some of the fiberglass. I then stopped the presses and regrouped.
I then went and "backfilled" the inner portion of all the mating surfaces with epoxy. This greatly added strength and unfortunately some weight.
I had to sand and adjust each part so that it will fit square to the next. With that completed I jigged up the plane (dry fit)
and measured it . Seems to have come out with the booms canting outward about 1/4 inch difference front to rear.
This now has created outthrust on both engines. Not a bad thing I just wish it was a little more square.
I gave my gear away to Bob and used some Very heavy duty gear from Robart. I used 630 series and 640 for the nose.
This change came up with another problem. The gear does not extend all the way into the well. Ok now time to make new gear plates.
I used 3/16 ply and made new plates and removed the old and glued the new ones up higher in the gear well.
That being done it does look a lot better and will work much better.
For those of you wondering how I did not bump into the rudder and throttle servos I am using mini servos for the rudders and 2 minis for the elevator buried in the tail group.
Also I am stripping all the covering off and will glass the balsa and repaint to match the famous all red YIPPEE P-38 plane.
With all these modifications I am really only using the fiberglass and balsa parts.,
I am not at all disapointed with my purchase. I would buy another tomorrow.
I always redo all arfs to make them as sturdy and pretty as possible.
As the Kram and RV man said .......It is all up to the flight test.
I am hoping all this work will be a good payoff.
Greg
12-01-2003, 06:36 PM
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RE: KMP vs VQ P-38: Side by side construction
av8r4aa:
I think your "Standard of Expectations" for ARF's is exceedingly generous.
I come from old school, in that I once built everything I flew, and was always wary of ARF's because they weren't dependably solid or straight. The "New Wave" ARF's in the last few years have sorta changed my mind, and I've come to expect value and quality from them (World Models, Yellow, 3W, for example). Since I like to fly more than I like to build, this has changed the way I manage my "stable."
If I had to fix everything you describe on a P-38 ARF, however, I think I'd revert back to to "Heck, for not much more work, I can build my own and then I know it'll be right."
I guess you might argue that to straighten out somebody else's kit is more of a challenge (and hence an accomplishment) than to build from sticks. I'm afraid that would tax my annoyance threshhold too much.
So far the VQ P-38 has favorably impressed me.
Pending flight characteristics, as you say.
mt
I think your "Standard of Expectations" for ARF's is exceedingly generous.
I come from old school, in that I once built everything I flew, and was always wary of ARF's because they weren't dependably solid or straight. The "New Wave" ARF's in the last few years have sorta changed my mind, and I've come to expect value and quality from them (World Models, Yellow, 3W, for example). Since I like to fly more than I like to build, this has changed the way I manage my "stable."
If I had to fix everything you describe on a P-38 ARF, however, I think I'd revert back to to "Heck, for not much more work, I can build my own and then I know it'll be right."
I guess you might argue that to straighten out somebody else's kit is more of a challenge (and hence an accomplishment) than to build from sticks. I'm afraid that would tax my annoyance threshhold too much.
So far the VQ P-38 has favorably impressed me.
Pending flight characteristics, as you say.
mt
12-02-2003, 02:42 AM
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RE: KMP vs VQ P-38: Side by side construction
Replying to Twinman. This is the aggressive flyer that bent the wing dowels. Can you say wing loading! I just want you know that the tube mounts were glued in the wing, so please don't loose sleep over a silly little thing! 
. As far as the hardwood on the inside of the wing dowels, they must have got it from a balsa tree. My fix for the bent rods was to replace the center dowel with 1/8" wall stainless steel tube. I used stainless because it's in abundance at the machine shop where I work. The front and back tubes I left OEM.
Overall, the VQ P-38 is great flyer. I had so much fun flying it that left engine flamed out(lack of fuel)! Fortunately, I was able to make a curcuit around the field and gain altitude. The landing was a piece of cake, I owed that to my heli flying-using the left stick.
The plane flys with saito 100's turning 14x7 3 blades, no gyro with JR10-X radio and JR,Hitec servos. The saitos are a perfact match! They weight less then a OS 61FX w/ muffler. Put out more power and sound way cooler!
Later!
. As far as the hardwood on the inside of the wing dowels, they must have got it from a balsa tree. My fix for the bent rods was to replace the center dowel with 1/8" wall stainless steel tube. I used stainless because it's in abundance at the machine shop where I work. The front and back tubes I left OEM.Overall, the VQ P-38 is great flyer. I had so much fun flying it that left engine flamed out(lack of fuel)! Fortunately, I was able to make a curcuit around the field and gain altitude. The landing was a piece of cake, I owed that to my heli flying-using the left stick.
The plane flys with saito 100's turning 14x7 3 blades, no gyro with JR10-X radio and JR,Hitec servos. The saitos are a perfact match! They weight less then a OS 61FX w/ muffler. Put out more power and sound way cooler!
Later!
12-02-2003, 08:08 PM
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RE: KMP vs VQ P-38: Side by side construction
Aggressor-38
We are humbled in your presence. Mine has ST 90's and three blade 13x8's. I am pleased that you were able to control the plane with an engine out. So far, I have not had the similar "Experience"..Oh rats....I should not have said that!!!
I am sure the four strokes really sound great. Ever notice how the field stops to watch a P-38 fly. I often wonder....envy or anticipation of a really good crash????
I guess the wings are made well!!!! Mine is doing loops rolls and figure eights.
Note to others. This is not meant to be an aerobatic plane and the engines discussed here are not recommended by the manufacturer.
So much for the disclaimers.....too many lawyers!!
Welcome aboard, as I notice the new status.
Feel free to chim in and help/share others.
Twinman
We are humbled in your presence. Mine has ST 90's and three blade 13x8's. I am pleased that you were able to control the plane with an engine out. So far, I have not had the similar "Experience"..Oh rats....I should not have said that!!!
I am sure the four strokes really sound great. Ever notice how the field stops to watch a P-38 fly. I often wonder....envy or anticipation of a really good crash????
I guess the wings are made well!!!! Mine is doing loops rolls and figure eights.
Note to others. This is not meant to be an aerobatic plane and the engines discussed here are not recommended by the manufacturer.
So much for the disclaimers.....too many lawyers!!
Welcome aboard, as I notice the new status.
Feel free to chim in and help/share others.
Twinman
12-04-2003, 01:00 PM
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Project Budget: VQ P-38
Kit.........................$650
Struts....................$140
Retracts.................$170
Motors...................$300
Mufflers.................$90
Receiver................$90
Servos..................$765
Props (4)...............$60
Y's & ext's.............$165
misc. (est)............$110
Total....................$2,540
Ouch! That hurts! It always feels better if you just buy stuff one at a time and don't ever add it all up.
Bear in mind that this is a "premium price," with all new stuff, nothing "jus' layin' aroun'." and all the radio gear is top-line JR stuff which is probably not necessary. Hey, but that's the way the P-38 project was run, starting back in the late '30's.
RV Man's estimate on the KMP to follow. I suspect it will be a lot less.
Struts....................$140
Retracts.................$170
Motors...................$300
Mufflers.................$90
Receiver................$90
Servos..................$765
Props (4)...............$60
Y's & ext's.............$165
misc. (est)............$110
Total....................$2,540
Ouch! That hurts! It always feels better if you just buy stuff one at a time and don't ever add it all up.
Bear in mind that this is a "premium price," with all new stuff, nothing "jus' layin' aroun'." and all the radio gear is top-line JR stuff which is probably not necessary. Hey, but that's the way the P-38 project was run, starting back in the late '30's.
RV Man's estimate on the KMP to follow. I suspect it will be a lot less.
12-04-2003, 03:04 PM
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NoseGear
The best nose gear strut for optimal strength and scale appearance is the 7/16" Robart 661-L, for $54 ea. It's supposed to include an adaptor to the 3/16" Spring Air sockets.
Robart is telling me to expect shipping in about 2 weeks.
Anybody familiar with their delivery schedules? Does that really mean 2 weeks?
Robart is telling me to expect shipping in about 2 weeks.
Anybody familiar with their delivery schedules? Does that really mean 2 weeks?
12-05-2003, 12:27 AM
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RE: Project Budget: VQ P-38
OUCH!!!!!!! I did not need to know that!!!! UH.......you forgot the battery!!! Tee Hee.
I plan to post my experience to add brakes to mine, but no guts to list additional costs, or think about it!!!
Twinman
I plan to post my experience to add brakes to mine, but no guts to list additional costs, or think about it!!!
Twinman
12-05-2003, 05:31 PM
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RE: Project Budget: VQ P-38
Ok you guys, I just got back I better chime in here and express my opinion on some of this stuff. as you know I have the KMP ARF, Which I like. I think it's a real bargain at $499. Fiberglass booms and center pod balsa covered wings stab and elev. To start with I wish it came as a arc. Then a guy could scale this baby out to no end. I think it's a more rugged kit than the VQ, The KMP should make a good everyday flier. My inner wing panels didn't line up either, I used a pipe clamp to pull them together a quick fix. For a twin engine P-38 it's a quick build kit. I'm running OS-70 4strokes with APC 14x7 props. The only modifications I did to the plane is carbon fiber tubes for rudder and elve. linkages and bigger 12oz. fuel tanks. The cost of mine is only about $700. I already had the engines and servos. I uesed standerd servos all the way around. I use the rule of thumb for servos, for every square inch of flying surface is one OZ of torque. I hope this helps some of you guys, If you have any questions, I be happy to answer if I can. I can't wait until the maiden flight. That will tell it all. Did I here my ole buddy twinman say theres going to be a P-38 meet somewhere.
Rich
Rich
12-05-2003, 06:02 PM
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RE: Project Budget: VQ P-38
Hello Rv man, I also have a Kmp. How did you correct for incorrect diehedral, misalighnment of spar tubes, wrong angles on wing fues and booms ect? I can understand useing a large wood clamp to force the inboard wing panels flush but the angle on the booms are off resulting in the booms canting inward, what a mess. Av8raa in a 3-6-03 post makes since to me. If it was just a clamping remedy I wouldn't complain. The manufacture should retool and provide people with a buildable ARF.{ ALMOST READY TO FLY} I estimate at least 40 hours to fix this thing. Another 40 hours to refinish, and it still won't be as good as a VQ. Since I now have both I'll do a completley unbiased report on both, including flight and durability. I'll also review the differences in the new Kmp I'm suppose to get to be fair. Bob Metz
12-05-2003, 06:28 PM
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RE: Project Budget: VQ P-38
I undersand what your saying about the booms, After I expoxyed my booms the aft section was canting inward. It's not a hard fix, I set my plane on a flat table, pulled the aft section of the booms outward so I had the same measurmeant as the front. Then I fasten a board to the table to hold the boom in place, Then epoxy the elve in place, and let dry overnight.
Rich
Rich
12-05-2003, 06:59 PM
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RE: Project Budget: VQ P-38
Rv man
An all P-38 fly in way too cool!!!!! I'm in if it happens. Would be nice to meet other nuts on this project!! Tee Hee.
Twinman
PS You guys are doing a fantastic job with this build off!!!
An all P-38 fly in way too cool!!!!! I'm in if it happens. Would be nice to meet other nuts on this project!! Tee Hee.
Twinman
PS You guys are doing a fantastic job with this build off!!!
12-05-2003, 11:54 PM
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RE: Project Budget: VQ P-38
Hello again, that was a pretty clever fix on twisting the fues to get the vertical stabs vertical, but that still leaves the front of the booms, landing gear and engines canted, the centerline of the center pod and the centerline of the booms are also way off relitive to each other. Somebody just really screwed up on this thing with the molds, how about an admission by the dealer and replacement, that's how you stay in buisness.
12-06-2003, 10:48 PM
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RE: Project Budget: VQ P-38
Andrew Kondor offered me a new kit......but I deferred, thinking I could get it straight enough...shoot it ain't scale, just another Sunday Flyer!
You guys who are all huffy, have you contacted KMP? Voiced your complaints to Andrew?? He has gone way out on a limb for ME....
I sure would like to see an all '38 fly-in!! Be sure to let me know..............
You guys who are all huffy, have you contacted KMP? Voiced your complaints to Andrew?? He has gone way out on a limb for ME....
I sure would like to see an all '38 fly-in!! Be sure to let me know..............
12-07-2003, 02:44 PM
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P-38 Fly in
The first P-38 fly in, We would make history guys.
Where would we have it?
When would we have it?
How many guys would show up?
I wonder how many guys own and fly these things?
Rich
Where would we have it?
When would we have it?
How many guys would show up?
I wonder how many guys own and fly these things?
Rich
12-12-2003, 07:17 PM
#43
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RE: P-38 Fly in
I think somewhere in Dallas or Dallas area would work for me ( I live in San Antonio but would go that far).
As far as WHEN....I hope after I get it together....say summer or autumn of '04?
I have one of KMP's...who else??
As far as WHEN....I hope after I get it together....say summer or autumn of '04?
I have one of KMP's...who else??
12-12-2003, 07:23 PM
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RE: P-38 Fly in
I live in Houston and have the VQ and a "slightly larger one".
I'm in. Let's see how to get two P-38's into the old Suburban.......Hope I have that Problem!!
I know there are two in Corpus and at least one in the Dallas area.
twinman
I'm in. Let's see how to get two P-38's into the old Suburban.......Hope I have that Problem!!
I know there are two in Corpus and at least one in the Dallas area.
twinman
12-17-2003, 12:28 AM
#45
RE: P-38 Fly in
I'm back.
My reverse servo is here.
My Bisson mufflers are here. Boy, are they sweet! Really classy-lookin', and smoothly machined, BUT there's a teensy problem: Dimension "A" in the photo needs to be about 1/8" longer for the belly of the muffler to clear the motor mount. O.S. makes an extension, if I can get it (more waiting!), or use a really thick gasket, or redrill the firewall and install slimmer mounts, or get Jtech mufflers.
Any better ideas?
mt
My reverse servo is here.
My Bisson mufflers are here. Boy, are they sweet! Really classy-lookin', and smoothly machined, BUT there's a teensy problem: Dimension "A" in the photo needs to be about 1/8" longer for the belly of the muffler to clear the motor mount. O.S. makes an extension, if I can get it (more waiting!), or use a really thick gasket, or redrill the firewall and install slimmer mounts, or get Jtech mufflers.
Any better ideas?
mt
12-17-2003, 12:54 AM
#46
RE: P-38 Fly in
Hey, I am supercharged about a P-38 fly-in!!! That is an awesome idea!!!! This Brotherhood of the P-38 is a very special distillation of maniacs, and I think getting together would be a blast. Who gets credit for that? Well, never mind who gets credit for it. Let's do some serious logistics on where, when and how. The net's a good way to do that and it might be worth starting a new thread.
I'm more than a little uneasy about the "I live in San Antonio, but I'm willing to drive to Dallas." comment. In order to get a goodly number, we may have to think more on a national scale, but I suppose Texas is a good place to start, since y'all got the best climate and the smoothest runways and the faster horses and the best-lookin' women. Maybe we could get people to "commit" to the idea, put points on the map and get a math whiz to do a rough geographic regression analysis to get the most participants. RV Man didn't get his net-name by accident. We got trailers, and we got trucks, and we will travel!
mt
I'm more than a little uneasy about the "I live in San Antonio, but I'm willing to drive to Dallas." comment. In order to get a goodly number, we may have to think more on a national scale, but I suppose Texas is a good place to start, since y'all got the best climate and the smoothest runways and the faster horses and the best-lookin' women. Maybe we could get people to "commit" to the idea, put points on the map and get a math whiz to do a rough geographic regression analysis to get the most participants. RV Man didn't get his net-name by accident. We got trailers, and we got trucks, and we will travel!
mt
12-17-2003, 02:56 PM
#47
RE: P-38 Fly in
Solution to the Bisson muffler-motor mount misfit:
O.S. part #26625340 is a 15 mm extension in stock at Tower. They're overnighting it to me.
Remember: this fix is specific to the FX .61. For all I know, it may not even be a problem with other powerplants.
If you use that engine, carve out the inside of the mounting rail of the lower mount to get the engine closer to the mount, and it may take care of the problem. I'm not using this solution because it would require re-drilling the firewall to retro-fit.
mt
O.S. part #26625340 is a 15 mm extension in stock at Tower. They're overnighting it to me.
Remember: this fix is specific to the FX .61. For all I know, it may not even be a problem with other powerplants.
If you use that engine, carve out the inside of the mounting rail of the lower mount to get the engine closer to the mount, and it may take care of the problem. I'm not using this solution because it would require re-drilling the firewall to retro-fit.
mt
12-17-2003, 07:30 PM
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RE: P-38 Fly in
ORIGINAL: kram
Hey......
I'm more than a little uneasy about the "I live in San Antonio, but I'm willing to drive to Dallas." comment. In order to get a goodly number, we may have to think more on a national scale, but I suppose Texas is a good place to start, since y'all got the best climate and the smoothest runways and the faster horses and the best-lookin' women. Maybe we could get people to "commit" to the idea, put points on the map and get a math whiz to do a rough geographic regression analysis to get the most participants. RV Man didn't get his net-name by accident. We got trailers, and we got trucks, and we will travel!
mt
Hey......
I'm more than a little uneasy about the "I live in San Antonio, but I'm willing to drive to Dallas." comment. In order to get a goodly number, we may have to think more on a national scale, but I suppose Texas is a good place to start, since y'all got the best climate and the smoothest runways and the faster horses and the best-lookin' women. Maybe we could get people to "commit" to the idea, put points on the map and get a math whiz to do a rough geographic regression analysis to get the most participants. RV Man didn't get his net-name by accident. We got trailers, and we got trucks, and we will travel!
mt
You got that right! TEXAS IS GREAT!!
Just got back from my 'Wright Bros. Anniversary" flight. Just had to share in the festivities!
The guys in Kill Devil Hills, NC couldn't get their bird off the ground but mine flew just fine!!
12-17-2003, 10:29 PM
#50
RE: P-38 Fly in
The KMP is on its feet! Shown in the first picture is nose gear installed. Note that RV Man is going with the coil spring struts for now. We don't have the nose oleos from Robart yet.
Second pic shows the KMP on it's feet. It's a bit of a contrived photo, since it still needs some innards work. Silver over-painting on the right cowl in progress. He may repaint all the green as well to a more realistic military color.
Third photo has a small, but really obvious clue to RV Man's next big project in the background.
Second pic shows the KMP on it's feet. It's a bit of a contrived photo, since it still needs some innards work. Silver over-painting on the right cowl in progress. He may repaint all the green as well to a more realistic military color.
Third photo has a small, but really obvious clue to RV Man's next big project in the background.