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Bates B-26 Marauder

Old 08-23-2004, 03:36 PM
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kram51
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Default Bates B-26 Marauder

I have the Bates Marauder as a long term project. Probably won't start building until next year sometime. I am projecting a first flight sometime in 2006.
I would like to get some thoughts on this plane in particular regarding it's handling characteristics, etc, both for this particular model and any others that may be out there. Twin training will commence next spring most likely with a VQ A-26.
One question concerning the stepping stone aircraft as well; what other planes would be good to transition into a large gas twin? I'm moving away from the smaller glow models completely and am wondering about the real benefits of learning "twinage" on a small glow engine plane as opposed to something larger on gas?

Always questions! I look forward to your response.

Mark
Old 08-23-2004, 10:35 PM
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William Robison
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Default RE: Bates B-26 Marauder

Mark:

A little history on the Martin B-26. It is the airplane that Peyton Magruder is remembered for, the Marauder is his most well known design.

The first production models had a wing so small that the plane was nicknamed the "Baltimore Wh*re" as it had "No visible means of support." There was a slight increase of wing area in the later production, but it still had an extremely high wing loading.

In WW2 the airplane distinguished itself by having the lowest combat loss rate percentage of any type flown by the Allies. However, all the B-26 pilots who made it to combat were the survivors of an unforgiving Darwinian selection process, the Marauder also had just about the highest training loss rate of any type flown by the Allies.

The pilots who mastered the plane loved it, and it seemed to love them back. The ones who just weren't good enough were sometimes washed out, but often killed themselves too. Sadly, they killed other people at the same time.

All this is to say the B-26 can be a nasty plane, but once mastered it's sweet. As a guess you have a 50% probability of getting comfortable with it, the other 50% of course, says you'll destroy the plane learning to fly it.

I've never flown the Martin, but I do have some time in the Douglas A-26 you mentioned as a transition trainer, it's a nice airplane. But not as a first twin.

Don't be ashamed to fly a smaller twin, if anyone looks down their nose at you just ask them where their twin is. And that leads me to say the Northeast Aerodynamics [link=http://www.ne-aero.com/twinair45.html]Twin-Air 45[/link] is just about the best first twin available.

Start with a smaller glow twin? Most definitely. Several reasons, among them is expense. The T-A 45 with a pair of new Magnum XLS 46 engines, and all the radio gear, ready to fly will cost less than the VQ A-26 kit alone. It is also a forgiving plane, very few military airplanes are, either full size or scale.

In the case of a twin trainer smaller is better, it will not only react to a failure faster than a larger plane, it will respond more quickly to your corrective inputs as well. With the lighter wing loading, lower altitude and speed if it does get away from you there is less probability of total destruction. There's that cost factor rearing its head again.

Think I've run on long enough here. Just get the Twin-Air and stop asking questions.

Haw.

Bill.
Old 08-23-2004, 10:59 PM
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kram51
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Default RE: Bates B-26 Marauder

Don't be ashamed to fly a smaller twin, if anyone looks down their nose at you just ask them where their twin is. And that leads me to say the Northeast Aerodynamics Twin-Air 45 is just about the best first twin available.
Not ashamed at all as I fly several right now. I'm looking for advice is all with the goal of flying bigger planes. I've read many good things about the TA-45. My question was really if the bigger guys are the goal what's the best way to get there.

In the case of a twin trainer smaller is better, it will not only react to a failure faster than a larger plane, it will respond more quickly to your corrective inputs as well. With the lighter wing loading, lower altitude and speed if it does get away from you there is less probability of total destruction. There's that cost factor rearing its head again.
Really? I was thinking wing loading would be higher on a smaller twin, all things being equal, as compared to a similar larger plane. My weakness is for scale planes, even civilian. After my first couple trainers I've always stuck with something that looks like a "real" airplane. Maybe I'll have to bash it into something more scale. I'm not as nuts as some over what is "scale" but I do like for my planes to at least resemble a real one.

I've always loved the Marauder and I know the history it has. I've wondered how the model would fly given that it's not carrying 7 guys, machine guns out the wazoo, and 2,000-4,000 pounds of bombs. Not to mention several thousand pounds of fuel!

The Marauder is the goal anyway and since I'll be cutting this kit myself my time estimate is probably generous at best!

Thanks for the advice Bill, it's what I was looking for. . . would love to hear from any who have the Marauder still. Fascinating airplane!

Mark
Old 08-24-2004, 12:09 AM
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William Robison
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Default RE: Bates B-26 Marauder

Mark:

Go [link=http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_1912953/anchors_2109185/mpage_2/anchor/tm.htm#2109185]here[/link] and see post #35 for a description of a Twin-Air losing an engine in flight.

Smaller/better? Purely a matter of inertia, and my opinion. Also. as you said, wing loading. Build a larger twin with similar wing loading, all other things being equal, it will fly like the smaller one except for control response. Higher weight equals higher inertia equals slower response. As I said, it's my preference.

Scale? The T-A looks a lot like a Piper Apache as delivered (built) and bashing it closer to scale wouldn't be any bother. Or any other light twin with a "Hershey Bar" wing. And just between you and me, the T-A is a lot better flying airplane than the PA-23.

Bill.
Old 08-24-2004, 08:45 AM
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Default RE: Bates B-26 Marauder

I am going to have to totally, 100% disagree with Bill, this time. Bill and I are in the same club, by the way, only I fly from 7:00-9:30 in the morning and he flies from 5:00-7:30 in the evenings.

Drop me an e-mail and I can get you in touch with a man who, as I recall, built and who I watched successfully fly a giant B-26 in our club. He then gave it to the owner who bashed it a couple of weeks later. I saw all the flights on the plane and you can forget getting practice on a little Twin-Air. It will only teach you bad habits. I don't think the plane can be flown successfully on 1 engine. If you lose one, you'd better cut power and find some real estate.

The original test pilot, who is about the best scale pilot I have seen, told me he could not come off full power until he was committed for landing. But talk to him about it. I think they were using 2 OS 1.08s. I hope we are talking about the same plane, around a 10 ft span, fuselage about a foot or so in diameter.
Old 08-24-2004, 09:13 AM
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kram51
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Default RE: Bates B-26 Marauder

The Bates Marauder is drawn to 1/8 scale. The wing span is 106.5" and the fuse length is 87". I don't know the fuse diameter off hand but I believe its about 10". Projected weight is 35-40 pounds if memory serves. The plans call for 2 G-23's to G-38's. You can go with glo but at that size the fuel comsumption would be astronomical. Besides, the gas engines are more reliable I would suspect. During production of the B-26B the wingspan was lengthened by 6 feet to give it a total of 71 feet. The vertical tail was also increased in size. This is the version that Jerry has drawn. The full scale had issues because of it's wing loading. In my mind the model should have a much better loading than full scale because of the lack of a crew, guns and ammo, bombs, fuel etc.

Good to see a discussion about something other than a B-17 and B-25!!! I was beginning to think maybe they really were the only bombers of the war!

Regards,

Mark
Old 08-24-2004, 10:40 AM
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Default RE: Bates B-26 Marauder

Mark....Do you have the plans already?......One thing to ck is what kind of wing is it using ?...Is it the "scale" wing or is it something thats more accomodating for the higher wing loads of a scaled down plane........I have the plans for the Don Smith A-26 and its a thin wing for sure....more closer to scale......I have seen only one fly and it appeared to be a handful........@ Deland several years ago a gentlemen had a scratch built B-26 roughly the same size as what you want to build....it had some kind of "custom" made props which most of us were quite concerned about ....but none the less.....off to the flight line it went........During T/O just after gear retraction the rt. engine shed the prop...followed by #2 engine departing the firewall.....probably one of the more spectacular crashes I've ever witnessed........One of the guys in our warbird group had it on video and we watched it later that night and sequenced it frame-by-frame and you could see the #2 prop literally explode...then #2 engine depart......followed by a spectacular spin into the trees.........Take it slow.....learn to be proficient with smaller twins first........most important....can't say it enough.....make sure that the powerplants are reliable........engine failure kills more twins than anything else........but...just because an engine failure occurs....doesn't always mean ballgame over.......if your prepared, patient and proficient.....you have a good chance of getting your plane back safely.....Bill......
Old 08-24-2004, 10:57 AM
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kram51
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Default RE: Bates B-26 Marauder

Hi Bill
The A-26 and the B-26 are two different airplanes. The Douglas A-26 Invader was redesignated B-26 after the war resulting in confusion of the two planes. Here's a picture that shows exactly the plane I'm talking about. Then one of an A-26 . . .
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Old 08-24-2004, 11:28 AM
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kram51
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Default RE: Bates B-26 Marauder

It sounds like the one plane you witnessed the destruction of wasn't going to make it no matter the airfoil! I trust in Jerry's plans. The airfoil is a good 4 inches thick at the root or something close to that. The real plane was a bear for a number of reasons. The wing loading was high, improper ground maintenance training, and inexperienced pilots and crew. I'm sure there were other variables but those are the most often noted.

Two things that again I must mention are the wing isn't as small as you may think. the -A models had the short wing. The -B's were lengthened along with an increase in overall size of the vertical tail surface. This WOULD have been the fix needed but the Army decided to up the gross weight by increasing the defensive armament, adding the 4 gun packs and increasing the bomb loads to upwards of 5,000 pounds depending on the mission. This even though the rear bomb bay was usually used for more fuel capacity. So, instead of decreasing the wing loading, they actually INCREASED the loading despite the added lifting surface. Of course, with fuel, bomb load, and defensive munitions expended the plane would be much more "user friendly" at the most critical time, landing.

THAT BEING SAID, I've yet to hear from anyone who has actually built, and or flown, this particular model. I don't think you can compare the flight characteristics to those mentioned above. That was just plain crazy!

The "one a day in Tampa Bay" came from maintenance crews running the batteries down inadvertantly while performing maintenance. Then, at full power on take off, the batteries would die and the props would immediately feather leaving the pilot and crew staring at the bay with two screaming engines and no power. The result was an order that all maintenance be performed with the use of the electrical generator cart. Yet another one of the black eyes the Marauder was given thru no fault of its own.

Mark
Old 08-24-2004, 12:00 PM
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TLH101
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Default RE: Bates B-26 Marauder

There are 2 guys in the "Tejas R/C Club"
http://www.tejasrc.org/
who have built the Bates B-26. Reuben Ramos, & Jim Marshall, I beleive. Maybe you can contact them through the web site and get some info right from those know.
Old 08-24-2004, 12:07 PM
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kram51
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Default RE: Bates B-26 Marauder

Kewl!!! Thank you Terry!

Mark
Old 08-24-2004, 02:57 PM
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gow589
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Default RE: Bates B-26 Marauder

I just started on my Bates Maurader. I have the wing framed up an 75% sheeted. Project is stopped till this fall or winter but hope to get back on it then.

Gary
Old 08-24-2004, 03:04 PM
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Default RE: Bates B-26 Marauder

Mark.....Yes,..I'm aware the A-26(Douglas) and the B-26(Martin)...are 2 different birds.........just reflecting what I know about each @ this point..........always room to learn more......I know from flying twin warbirds that they present many more potential predicaments than the single engine warbirds..........not to be construed as reason to back away from them ....just to be aware of them........big,high wing load warbird twins are risky challenges....with a much greater potential for damage........can't leave any stone unturned.......they need to be 100% or don't fly....thats when problems arise............I'm sure the Bates B-26 flies well......but its always nice to hear from present/past owners and their experiences with them.........and I just haven't come across any up to now........What powerplants do you plan on using?........Bill....
Old 08-24-2004, 03:20 PM
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kram51
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Default RE: Bates B-26 Marauder

Hiya Bill

The plans call for G-23's to G-38's. They're both the same price so I will most likely go for the -38's. I should say the G-26 as it looks like Horizon doesn't have the -23 anymore. I just received a reply from Jim Marshall, thanks again Terry, and he also recommends the -38's. He also had nothing but praise for the plane's handling characteristics. The word of caution from him is to KEEP THE AIRSPEED UP. I'm stoked. This project may start sooner than originally planned.

Mark
Old 08-24-2004, 06:02 PM
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kram51
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Default RE: Bates B-26 Marauder

Here are some of what Jim Marshall had to say about the Marauder in response to my email.

Like you, Ramos and I heard or read all of the horror stories and hangar tales concerning the 26. I was a bit more lucky than Ramos as my father in law was a pilot with the 319th BG in the MTO and logged 67 missions flying the beast and had nothing but praise for the old girl. I also talked to several other Marauder Men and they all sang the same song. Ramos and I came to the conclusion that the Marauder was a reliable and faithful mount as long as you watched your airspeed, so...make a big poster and attach it above the door.... "Don't Go Slow..Don't Go Slow..Dammit..Don't Go Slow !!!" ...except over the numbers in the landing configuration...we fly our 26's strictly by the book and haven't suffered any problems.
I was hoping this is what Jim would have to say! Also . . .

Ramos and I both used Zenoah G 38 engines after talking to several other Marauder builders who used otherwise and we thank our lucky stars for using those engines. The Zenoahs are so reliable and have excellent power to fly the Bates Marauder, you may want to consider them also. We used Glenniss Wheels and brakes...those brakes come in real handy, just like on the real Marauder...better plan on getting them also.
lastly, with Jim's permission, I will add the email addresses of some guys that have "been there, done that"

About those email addresses I shot ya...We are the fellas that have become the source for info on building the Bates 26 along with Jerry Bates himself...We will be more than glad to help anyone that is interested in building the plane...

Regards........

Jim Marshall
So, here they are . . .

Ramos makes fiberglass gear doors for the Bates Marauder

Ruben Ramos - [email protected] makes glass B 26 gear doors

Jim Marshall - [email protected]

Robart rep....a great mechanical "imagineer" and nose gear guru

Gary Dye - [email protected] phone: (956) 581-4340
Other E-Mail: [email protected] same phone number

Mark, the Bates B 26 is a great flying machine...just ignore all the hangar tales and other trash talk about the plane....All ya need to know is..."Don't Go Slow" and you will survive....
Finally, Jim's advice on flying the Bates Marauder . . .

Get hold of some Marauder videos and watch the landing approaches and take offs...we fly ours exactly the same..."Get the gear up, quick...drop flap on landings...keep a bit of throttle on til near point of touch down and you will be safe... If you fly from a short strip...800 feet or less...those brakes are going to be very useful...We fly from a 3,200 foot ex military aux strip..but we still use the brakes as the Glenniss wheels just keep rolling, and rolling and rolling......Plus...those G 38's act like fire breathing R-2800 Pratts ....and the brakes help keep taxi speeds under control.

Good Luck....

Jim Marshall
What an incredibly generous guy! I feel as if I have three people helping me with this thing now.

I hope this can be of help to some of you also.

Mark
Old 08-25-2004, 10:17 AM
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Default RE: Bates B-26 Marauder

Mark....I have the "Z" B-25 101" with G-38's........similar in size and weight........definitely good throttle management is the key......with those reliable engines..........I use 15* flaps for T/O and I use 350'-400' for the T/O run.........Airspeed is your best friend........I use 30* flaps for landing....anymore than that...the plane starts to get squirrely........Unfortunately....its been sitting for awhile until I get another engine...........I have one thats been a headache so I'm just gonna change it.......Like to see you build this plane.....its one of those rare warbirds that you just don't see too often........what weight have the B-26's been coming out at?........Do the outboard wing panels have wing tubes?..........Who makes the gear for it?.........Bill......
Old 08-25-2004, 10:25 AM
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kram51
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Default RE: Bates B-26 Marauder

The projected weight is 35-40 pounds. The wings as drawn show Sig wing joiners outside of the engine nacelles. Robart makes gear for the Marauder but I'm also looking into having Lee Robinson make the gear as well. It seems that the Glennis wheels and brakes are almost mandatory.

Mark
Old 08-25-2004, 10:30 AM
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Default RE: Bates B-26 Marauder

Mark......The Robart gear in my B-25 have been flawless.......In the future I might add the brakes though as they come in handy on the shorter runways........The B-25 weighs just over 35 lbs........Bill......
Old 08-25-2004, 10:37 AM
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Default RE: Bates B-26 Marauder

I hope to keep the weight down. I have that as a mantra with any plane I build. I look forward to getting underway but it will be a long process.

Mark
Old 05-23-2005, 12:50 PM
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Default RE: Bates B-26 Marauder

Anyone making any progrss on their B-26? I was thinking of getting started again on mine.
Old 06-05-2005, 11:43 AM
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scale dail
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Default RE: Bates B-26 Marauder

Col. Art Johnson in Florida built a B-26 100'' and flew it in the scale masters in 1989. Propwash video has it.
Old 08-30-2006, 12:14 AM
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Default RE: Bates B-26 Marauder

So, Mark, it is now August of 2006, and I am looking into a B-26 build myself sometime. I have always loved this plane. I came across this thread tonight, and the suspense is killing me ... did you finish and fly it?
Old 08-30-2006, 09:40 AM
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Default RE: Bates B-26 Marauder


ORIGINAL: Lightning Fan

So, Mark, it is now August of 2006, and I am looking into a B-26 build myself sometime. I have always loved this plane. I came across this thread tonight, and the suspense is killing me ... did you finish and fly it?
I too would like to know the status of your Bates B-26 project.
Old 08-30-2006, 07:59 PM
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kram51
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Default RE: Bates B-26 Marauder

Ahh the twists and turns of life boys. . . .[]
I've had to put my hobby on hold for a while to take care of my aging (and ailing) father. I just took the plans out to day dream the other day. I would hope to complete this plane sooner than later. I'm going to live vicariously thru Phil Clark and that beast of his for the time being.

Peace.
Old 08-31-2006, 08:37 PM
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Default RE: Bates B-26 Marauder

I have the late great Art Johnson plans. and cowls but no canopy. I wonder if it is the same scale as the bates 26. just with the short wing. I like the earlier short wing B-26 better cause it was faster and more notorious. if what I read was correct the reason so many Maruaders were crashing is because the ground crew at preflight was using the on board electical power to test systems and by the time the plane took off the batteries were near dead and the electric variable pitch props would fail going flat when they were most needed. corrected by using GPU's. also the wing loading was quite high for the time.

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