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How does a Gyro work on Rudder Application?

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How does a Gyro work on Rudder Application?

Old 11-26-2004, 11:06 AM
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flyrc100
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Default How does a Gyro work on Rudder Application?

I am building a G&L P-38. I understand some folks are putting a Gyro on the Rudder Servo in case of an engine out situation. I admit I haven't a clue as to how a Gyro works, and would love to hear how it helps. Also, I plan on installing Futaba servos and reciever. What model of Gyro should I buy? Thanks for the advice, flyrc100[X(]
Old 11-26-2004, 01:10 PM
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kram-RCU
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Default RE: How does a Gyro work on Rudder Application?

TwinMan has written extensively on this, and I think he uses gyros on ailerons, too. Find it at rcwarbirds.com.

I use gyros on my aerobatic planes, not my P-38's, but I can tell you the basics: a gyro works on any control surface to counter-act sudden movements of the aircraft by giving opposite control surface input A LOT faster than any pilot's reflexes can. For example, if a plane with an elevator gyro dives suddenly, the gyro gives up elevator so quickly that the pilot may not even know anything happened. Same thing with roll (ailerons) or yaw (rudder). Most modern gyros have adjustable "gain" which can be controlled from your transmitter, so that you can find a sweet spot between too much gyro control, where the surfaces will "hunt" or "seek" and cause the plane to porpoise, and too little control, where you won't get enough effect. A gyro is not an autopilot...it won't fly the plane...but it can make you and/or the plane seem a lot smoother than y'all really are...for example a tail dragger with a stong ground loop tendency will track right straight down the runway with just the right amount of rudder gyro....learning to hover a 3-D plane can be easier with gyros because they give you a split second more time to make manual adjustments necessary to stay upright. The philosophy behind using them on P-38's has to do with the plane's famous tendency to do a "death snap" roll when an engine goes out due to wide engine spacing, small rudders and heavy wing loading. The time from engine-out to uncontrolled spin for most P-38 crashes is incredibly brief...1 or 2 seconds. Go ahead, ask me how I know. Having gyros would theoretically lengthen that time enough for the pilot to get his bearings and gain manual control.

The reason I don't fly my 38's with gyros is that my experience with gyros on aerobatic planes tells me that finding the right gain setting can be a little tricky, especially since I don't normally twist and flop my 38's around much to test them. If you don't have enough gain, it won't do any good and if you have have too much, you could wind up porpoising, or needing drastically heavier manual inputs to make the plane do what you want...neither of which being a desirable situation on a P-38.

So, you can see that my reservations about gyros on 38's are from the perspective of being CHICKEN, rather than experienced. You should read TwinMan's treatises. He has done what could almost be termed "elegant clinical research" on the subject.

Good Luck, and post some pictures of your plane.


mt
Old 11-27-2004, 12:39 PM
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flyrc100
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Default RE: How does a Gyro work on Rudder Application?

Thanks for the explaination, I can see how "tuning" the gain could be difficult. The plane is still a long way from finished, so at least I've got plenty of time to study on the whole gyro thing!
Old 11-27-2004, 07:19 PM
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Default RE: How does a Gyro work on Rudder Application?

Kram,
I am soooo humbled in your presence and cannot add much to your answer.
Here is the original story as part of an on going series I wrote for rcwarbirds.com
GYROâ€S on AIRPLANES!

Rudder Control.
Having trouble with a short fuselage Tail dragger? (Cub, Biplane, Ultimate, Cap, etc.) Does it ground loop during takeoff? Landing? Unexpectedly turn on takeoff, landing, or hovering? Learn to use the left hand—the rudder!
OK you never listened to warnings on “Don’t DO Twins†why listen now! Don’t despair! Help is now available, and A. its cheap, B. easy to install, C. it works! The new piezo electronic gyro’s are here. They can be used to stabilize the rudder. And just about every mfg has some, Hobbico, Futaba, JR, and Expert to name a few. I am not talking about “heading lock gyro’sâ€, those are for the helicopter guys.
Installation is fairly straight forward.
1. The gyro is installed in series between the receiver and the rudder servo.
2. The rudder is centered using the center adjustment on the gyro and/or control linkage. Start with the transmitter trim tabs centered also. The Hobbico Multipurpose gyro must be set up with both; the mechanical center of the servo arm at 50% gain, after it is installed in series with the gyro, or it will only work one way. Use the gyro gain setting first and then the radio if needed or applicable.
3. Make sure to set the “Gain†on the gyro sensitivity to about 50% for initial testing.
4. Check the gyro orientation in the plane for proper action. Mount the gyro in such a way that it will not turn or come loose in flight. (If this were to happen things will get real interesting, real fast.) The proper location is at or very near the C.G., and away from heat and vibration!
5. Turn everything on and check operation. Proper operation can be checked by moving the tail horizontally to the right and observing the rudder movement. The rudder should quickly move to the right also, trying to push the tail back to the left. Its actually trying to re-center the fuselage. If the rudder goes left as you push the fuselage to the right, DO NOT FLY, the action is reversed and will need to be corrected by either using the reverse switch ON THE GYRO, or physically turning the gyro around 180 degrees.
That’s all there is to it GO FLY!
Flight Characteristics
1. Expect to take off in an unusually straight line. In most instances rapid throttle advance will only require minor rudder control or none at all.
2. In flight you must use the rudder with the ailerons to turn. If you try to turn, using only the ailerons, the rudder gyro will fight the turn and cause the plane to try and fly sideways. Using the rudder will override the gyro to allow the turn. When the rudder stick is released the gyro goes back into action to stabilize the plane.
3. Unless you can turn the gyro off, using another channel, do not perform rolls or tumbling maneuvers! The gyro will fight the controls and cause a simple aileron roll to become a barrel roll. This can be very scary! Check before you buy the gyro to see if this feature is available. The Hobbico Aero Gyro or Expert does, the Multipurpose gyro does not.
4. Landing will be the easiest experience ever. Come around, line up on the runway, use elevator and throttle to land and roll out straight. This can be done even in a moderate crosswind.
5. If, during flight, the fuselage wags back and forth, the gain is set to high. Land and reduce the gain on the gyro. If the gyro does not seem to keep the plane tracking straight, increase the gain.
6. Nose high hovering, or hanging on the prop, will become much easier. You will still have to use the ailerons and rudder to control the plane, but it will be much easier to accomplish.
7. Loops will now be straighter and cleaner.
Some additional information and reminders concerning gyros. I have been using the Hobbico line and am well satisfied with the results. The Multipurpose gyro is the straight forward, on all the time, and cheapest thing going. Priced at between $65—$75, it is very effective in trainers, cubs, Telemaster, and generally any plane that you do not plan on doing a lot of aerobatic maneuvers. The next step up is the Expert Gyro, and others. Priced at between $85- $100 it can be turned on and off via another channel. The sensitivity of the gyro can also be adjusted up and down as needed, in flight. This gyro is ideally suited for applications where the ability to turn it off during aerobatic flying is required. I have found that it may not satisfy all applications due to not enought gain. Finally, if you have two aileron servos mixed via separate channels, use the Hobbico “Aero Gyro†(Or similar). It has dual inlets, outlets, and gain control. Priced at $100-$120 this gyro can be used for aileron stabilization (to be covered in future articles).
Since the actual current draw on a gyro is very low one would think that no additional increase in the battery pack is necessary. This is not the case. Although the draw from the gyro is low the control surface that it is controlling is moving about ten times more than normal, due to the constant corrections being made by the gyro. With this in mind a larger battery pack would be a good idea. The only way around this would be to reduce the number of flights and keep a regular check on the condition of the flight pack, or use of a field charger between flights. Some of the non piezo type gyros allow the use of a separate battery pack for the gyro only. Futaba makes one and I’m sure others do also. Do your homework before you buy and do not assume anything. Talk to people that use them to get an idea of what you need. While we are on the subject of battery packs, servo reaction speed is critical for getting the maximum benefit from the gyro. With this in mind going from a 4.8 volt system to a 6.0 volt one will increase the torque output and speed by almost 20%. If you wish to stay with the 4.8 volt packs then you might want to consider the high speed servos for those control surfaces that the gyro controls. Pull - Pull systems or at the very least a stiffer single rod is recommended as the control surface is now much more useful and demanding of precise movement. Make sure there are NO Z BENDS in the control rods where they exit the fuselage. If your control rods bend the effectiveness of the gyro will be significantly reduced. Setting the control surface service throws higher will also help gyro effectiveness.
Personally speaking gyros will do everything noted above. This in effect reduces the demands placed on your skills. Use of gyro’s is actually banned in some competitions. It will also reduce the development of those same skills. They should be used as enhancers rather than crutches to your ability. Remember not every plane has or needs them.

Hope this helps,
Twinman
Old 11-28-2004, 06:03 PM
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flyrc100
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Default RE: How does a Gyro work on Rudder Application?

Wow! What a reply! Thanks for the info. It sounds like the gyro is "working" all the time. It may not be something I want after all. I just want something that would quickly snap into action if I lost an engine. Maybe if I set the sensitivity low, it would'nt be working all the time? I definately don't like the idea of having to input rudder all the time to turn or do other things, although I guess I could couple the rudder and ailerons together to put everything on the right stick with the good old computer radio. I do plan on loops and rolls for the P-38, so that sounds like a tough problem to overcome, other than turning it off, then of course my "insurance" against flameout is turned off also. Thanks again!!
Old 11-28-2004, 06:37 PM
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twinman
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Default RE: How does a Gyro work on Rudder Application?

My two cents is that if you do not now fly coordinated, that is rudder with ailerons ALL the time, you are in trouble with twins and particularly the P-38. In an engine out, then is NOT the time to learn to fly with the rudder. The gyro is invisible with coordinated flight. Loops are much more straight. If you set it low, as you propose, then it will be of no use in an emergency.
Rolls are really not affected, as I have two gyros on both of my P-38's, except that they stop NOW!.
Please do not misunderstand, I am not trying to beat or cut you down, but I want others to avoid the mistakes I made and enjoy twins.
Are gyros a necessity, no, but good insurance.
Good Luck,
Twinman
Old 11-28-2004, 06:55 PM
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William Robison
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Default RE: How does a Gyro work on Rudder Application?

Twinman didn't put it this bluntly: If you fly a twin and don't fly with the rudder, you are going to crash every time you lose an engine.

Bill.
Old 11-28-2004, 07:10 PM
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Default RE: How does a Gyro work on Rudder Application?

William,
The truth hurts. Been there done that.....DON'T make the same mistakes!! USE THE RUDDER AT ALL TIMES!!!!!!!!
Twinman
Old 11-28-2004, 07:29 PM
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Default RE: How does a Gyro work on Rudder Application?

Now that I am on my soap box.
Here are more of my old stories on gyros.
Hope you enjoy.
Twinman


Gyros on Twins...The saga continues!!!!

Recently I attended the giant scale fly in at our field with my usual
complement of twin engine planes. (OK, so I had to repair all of them after
the fly in....another story)


Due to a slight power excess, I was able to climb straight up with the best
of them. Maybe even do some of the maneuvers that the 3-D ships did. ( OK so
they are a "Little" better at smoothness, control, Gee whiz, etc.)
The one feat that they could do well, that I have not mastered, with a twin,
is the hover.
There is an inherent problem with conventional twins, in the hover, in that
the rudder is not in the direct prop blast of the engines. This drastically
reduces the rudder effectiveness. Yes, I have doubled the rudder in size to
better control engine out situations, but the hover is a real problem if the
plane yaws to the side. The rudder is not effective enough to recover. As
detailed in earlier sections of this series, the engines are already
electrically mixed into the rudder to aid the inverted flat spin and hammer
head, but the effect is a little bit too late and not effective enough for
this maneuver to control.


It is said, in the good book, that jealousy is a sin......Off to the
preacher with me!!
It is also noted that necessity is the mother of invention. ( The definition
of jealousy and necessity are so close, in the dictionary, as to be the same
as "Obsession") I hate to admit I can't do something.
I have done some small experimenting with gyros in the past . This gives me
an excess of these electronic wonders.
The plan was to risk my favorite plane, the converted Ultra Sport 1000 (
1002), to
once again go where fools know better. (Of course my son was all for it as
he likes a good crash)
As the engines were already mixed into the rudder on separate channels,
there are two separate leads from the separate channels going to the
throttle servos. Just what I need for the Hobbico Areo Gyro.
I installed the Hobbico Areo Gyro in series with the servo leads and
positioned the gyro to react to yaw. It takes a lot of gain in the gyro to
sense subtle movements on a large plane. It was positioned at approximately
the CG.
The idea is to have the engine on the down side of the yaw increase rpm and
the upper engine slow down to bring the plane back up to the vertical
position. This dampens out the yaw enough to react with the coupled rudder
and hold the vertical hover. Engines are coupled to the rudder.
I put the gain control on an off on switch, The gain was set at 90%, while
on, for maximum sensitivity. The gain setting was arrived (guessed) at by
wiggling a 86" plane in my workshop while my son watches the engine reaction
and tries to avoid getting hit by the gyrating mass of plane in a small
confined room. It is necessary to turn the system off for other maneuvers
such as flap spin, snap roll, hammer heads, and incase the whole idea "got
out of hand."
I also was not so sure about take off and landing. In the above maneuvers,
you can imagine the gyro would fight the necessary yaw dramatically.

To make a long story short, the idea WORKED !!!!


The plane is much easier to hover, and control yaw, using the gyro, to
assist the hover via differential engine thrust.
Note, the plane is capable of hovering at one half throttle. This is
important, as the gyro needs to be able to add more thrust with additional
servo movement on one engine and reduce the throttle on the other. Once
again, reliability on a twin cannot be over emphasized. Torque rolls are not
a problem, as the ailerons are more in the prop blast than are normal single
engine planes.


It was not a good idea to try a hammer head with the system on, as the plane
went nuts !! I won't try that again!!!
Loops were easier and more symmetrical, as were square loops. I, on the
second flight, I performed a landing with the gyro on, and it seemed to
track smoother. Take off with the gyro engaged is now much safer, as the
engines tend to come up together.


Don't do twins.....They make you crazy.!!!!
Old 11-28-2004, 07:33 PM
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twinman
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Default RE: How does a Gyro work on Rudder Application?

More old war stories.
Twinman


Twin Engine Saga: So You Want To Do Twins ? {Part 8} By Twinman

Rule Number 1- Don't Do Twins- Four Times the Trouble
I guess if you're still reading this section you obviously aren't going to
listen to rule number one so here is a suggestion to try and ease some of
the anxiety associated with flying twin's. Are gyro's the answer?
I have previously explained how losing an engine on a twin can result in an
inverted flat spin faster than you can imagine. It's worse on Warbirds with
high wing loading and wide engine spacing (P-38, B-25, etc)
I have decided to see if the problem can be solved by using two gyro's on
the plane. One gyro on the rudder, and a dual inlet/ outlet Hobbico "Aero
Gyro" on the ailerons. This in mind, and for the glory of Bayou City Flyers
I programmed my kit bashed Twin Ugly
using a 8 channel Futaba to intentionally cause an engine failure and
possible crash! Via a rotary dial channel, my copilot, and son Kyle, (who
was only too happy to deliberately cause a crash) was able to bring one
engine from full power to an idle on my command. As a side bonus this
allowed me to sync the engines at idle very easily. After the initial setup
and trim in flight I noticed a much more stable aircraft. Maneuvers became
really rock solid. Hanging on the prop straight up was almost hands free.
Now for the test. I flew level at half throttle, pulled the nose straight up
and went to full power. At this time I signaled to the copilot (who was
dying to help) to cut one engine to idle. This should have caused an
immediate inverted snap roll. It did not. The plane slowly yawed toward the
retarded engine. (I said retarded engine not pilot!) I then applied down
elevator and flew three laps around the field, at various power levels, in a
tense but controlled manner. The plane was flying at almost a 30 degree yaw
angle in level flight, but fly it did and it should not have. I signaled my
copilot (who had his mouth open in amazement or disappointment!) to bring
the idling engine back up to speed. The engine promptly died! Naturally
there was a cross wind, and I'm starting to have chest pains! The landing
however was uneventful.
This test did prove that the concept works. The gyro's, as used here, do not take control of the plane
but rather dampen unexpected actions sufficiently to allow you time to
react. If you have to rely on your reflexes to do this you are already about
a second or two behind the plane which, in a lot of cases, is too late!
As a side note I used the Hobbico "Aero Gyro" because it allowed me to use
separate channels for the two aileron servos so I could mix in aileron
differential.
This gyro also allows me the option of turning it
off in flight as needed for aerobatics.
Are gyros the answer? Nothing replaces ability, but they do allow you to
relax a little while flying twins. I have already had my heart attack trying
this and could use a little relaxation.


Additional. This concept was further tested on an Areotech P-38 and was
proved to be a viable way to control the P-38.

This was written seveal years ago and I now use them on all my P-38's.
Twinman
Old 11-28-2004, 07:39 PM
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twinman
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Default RE: How does a Gyro work on Rudder Application?

OK, so I need a life.
These are again several years old, but hopefully entertaining and of some small help.
Twinman


Twin Engine Saga: So You Want To Do Twins ? {Part 6} By Twinman


It has been five months of me trying to talk you out of trying twins. Still
you won't listen, so I will write the final chapter. (Cheering is in bad
taste) The old twin ugly has served it's purpose to be the test bed of these
articles and now retired and in the hanger. No, it is undamaged!!!! The
final test was to try the most difficult and dangerous maneuver for a twin
engine airplane...The Single Engine Takeoff! The twin ugly has served well
in these tests and so the decision to try the single engine takeoff was an
easy one....Yeah, let's do something new!!!!! (Told you flying twins was a
nutty idea!) Total time for the decision....2.5 seconds. One early (so as to
have not too many witnesses) Saturday morning the old plane was fired up on
twin engines and twin gyros (See Last Month Story on Gyros) for a
refamiliarization flight. This went well by trying eight point rolls
inverted low passes etc.. The plane was landed and one engine refueled and
the other tank drained. Gyro for the ailerons set to maximum rate. My son
and copilot Kyle ( always one for a good crash ) assisted to carry the
doomed plane to the far end of the runway with the single engine at quarter
throttle to maintain heat. The single engine run up and was held at the
straight up position for the 10 second requirement, for safe take off. The
plane was set on the runway (The peanut gallery was unusually quiet.. Or was
taking side bets) Rudder and aileron set at 50 percent into the running
engine, (This rapidly increased to 75% during the roll out) and with a deep
breath, the plane was off at a very slow pace. Remember that one engine out
is not half power, but a loss of up to 90% of the required power for flight
and climbing. The plane was held to the ground the full length of the runway
to gain maximum air speed and so control at lift off. I pulled up around 20
feet from the end of the field and began the slow climb for altitude. ( Your
Friend) Controls were sluggish to say the least, but controllable. I made a
turn into the engine( Not recommended and difficult as the plane wants to
turn away). First concern was to put as much space between the plane and the
ground as possible. After three circuits around the field, I decided that it
was time to land. (OK, my hands were shaking so bad that I was having
trouble holding the transmitter.) The peanut gallery seemed unconvinced that
one flight was actually a test of skill, so a second flight was attempted.(
My son is concerned that insanity is hereditary, I assured him that only
hair loss is!) The second flight was as uneventful as the first( OK so it
was just as terrifying as the first) It was going OK until the peanut
gallery (My "Buddies"...to name but a
few of my "friends") started screaming to LOOP IT,ROLL IT. Well, not having
good sense to ignore the challenge, I climbed as high as possible. This is a
difficult process on one engine. Yes, the plane did both loop and roll on
command. One low life commented that a real pilot would have done as low
level inverted pass! Call me woosy,,, No way!!!!! Seriously, the tests
conducted with the twin gyro scopes are, in my opinion, a complete success,
and will be added to two P-38's I and my son are finishing as we speak. No,
the gyros are not necessary for all twins and I don't use them on my other
two twins, but if you are going to start
with twin engine airplanes, and even think about the P-38 ( Understand an
ARF is coming) or any other heavily loaded high powered twin and expensive
war bird, I would really like to recommend them as cheap insurance. Good
Luck and see you at the field...I'm the one with the twin electric fans on
my Aggie hat!!!!!
Old 12-04-2004, 01:05 AM
  #12  
flyrc100
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Default RE: How does a Gyro work on Rudder Application?

I'm thinking now a rudder gyro is probably a good investment at least until I fly my machine around the circuit a few times. I believe the Futaba can be turned on /off via the transmitter anyway. The improved tracking and landing should improve confidence the first time out, besides, it will probably take some time for me to work up the nerve to actually put it through a loop or roll. Thanks to Twinman for his input!
Old 12-04-2004, 08:55 AM
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twinman
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Default RE: How does a Gyro work on Rudder Application?

That a boy. Note, the loop will be straighter and more uniform than ever. Don't worry about that manuver, but use rudder on the roll. Once you have this, you will never turn off or wonder why you never used it before if your plane is a tail dragger.
Good Luck,
Twinman
Old 06-08-2005, 11:29 PM
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uuq
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Default RE: How does a Gyro work on Rudder Application?

twinman!

I am working out a system design for a crude auopilot for a trainer kitplane.
I am trying to keep the things simple as much as I can as I donot have any good knowledge in flying. Therefore I have decided to control the rudder servo with a micro-controller doing the directional changes.
The question which is bothering me, is ther any simple solution to keep the plane balanced that is the aileron & elevator control using a gyro. Is gyro the only solution? Can I use an accelerometer for this purpose?

The threads which I have been browsing are old, I donot know whether you will see my request or not?

Regards,

uuq
Old 06-12-2005, 06:08 AM
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Warbirdz01
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Default RE: How does a Gyro work on Rudder Application?

Twinman.........Good data for those that are interested in having some alternatives to the "Normal" flying..........but it can't be said enough............can't learn the tricks of the trade..........til you learn the trade.............I have seen all too many pilots go into twins with minimal to average flying skills...............recipe for trouble..........need to have proficient skills and specifically if its a giant scale warbird twin.......better have several hundred flights on large warbirds in general.......they have unique characteristics.....and it takes some time to adapt to them..........I think its improtant to hone skills..........then add a gyro.............not the other way around..........I learned to fly warbirds with a AT6 Texan............probably not the best first airplane................but I learned how to use the rudder in a hurry...........If you can't fly a warbird around the pattern using the rudder..........better work on those skills........because a twin won't tolerate an aileron only turn............definitely sags in the turns..........last but probably most important........reliable powerplants.........when in doubt.....stay on the ground............also , when flying twins try to fly at a field with some areas for bailing out..........in case a need arises.............I haven't used any gyros up to now.................but would like to.......just to see what the differences are in flying....................one comment about the P-38...............my friends Ziroli P-38 with 3.2 Brisons lost an engine on 4 different occasions.................and flew just fine on one engine.......no unusual yaw or rolling tendency.........just flew around the pattern with some rudder trim and landed............Bill.......
Old 06-15-2005, 03:20 PM
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Default RE: How does a Gyro work on Rudder Application?

I havae a few twins flying but none that require the degree of rudder attention the P-38 does. I put a gyro from my heli in my C-160 Transall just to experiment with it. The Transall I have heard will fly one one engine just fine, But fI'm not one to gamble this theory. I installed the gyro just to make the necesary quick rudder input incase of an engine out. Then let me take over as soon as i see the engine out. My fellow club member have gotten calouse to twin flying and its not uncommon to have 3 or 4 other aircraft flying while we fly twins. So engine an out is now a seen event not a heard event. I have noticed a better takeoff roll and landing approach since installing the gyro. I still make sure the engines are set up and runnign properly before each flight to reduced thechances of the engine out experience.This is the best advice i have ever gotten about twin flying. Make damn sure the engines are reliable before you fly.

Pete

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